Instigator / Pro
4
1363
rating
13
debates
3.85%
won
Topic
#2471
The point of being a Christian is not to be a good person.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
seldiora
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
7
1417
rating
158
debates
32.59%
won
Description
This is not a debate about the existence of the Christian God. It's about what the teachings of Jesus inform us regarding The Gospel.
Round 1
In contrast to being a good person, the point of Christianity, from a Biblical view, is relationship with our creator. This is supported in many, many places. Ill opt to see CONs contention before providing potentially unrelated assumptions and arguments.
Furthermore, the idea of "being a good person" is different in scripture. You do good works because of a desire change in "the heart (kardia)" driven by the Holy Spirit, not your self. And the status of "good person" is reserved for those with no sins whatsoever. Only one who has walked the Earth managed to hit that status. The rest of us fall short. There are no good people, besides Jesus,, in the Biblical view. Nor will there ever be.
Pro argues that the “relationship” outweighs the good ideas that Jesus tried to teach. But believing in his teachings is also a crucial part of Christianity. Since Christmas believe they will go to hell if they sin, it’s clear that they would like to avoid this and be as good person as possible. Even if perfection is impossible one may still strive to be as good as possible as a Christian.
Round 2
Pro argues that the “relationship” outweighs the good ideas that Jesus tried to teach. But believing in his teachings is also a crucial part of Christianity.
I acknowledge i could have been more precise in the initial description. Perhaps instead of point of Christianity i could have said:
Good works/being a "good person" have nothing to do with acquiring salvation through Jesus. Furthermore, once Christian (saved and following Christ) you may have fruits of the spirit increase in your life (patience, kindness, slowness to anger, etc) but you're still far from the Biblical definition of good person (utterly sinless life). What's more, Christians have literally nothing to gain from God in doing good works.
Since Christians believe they will go to hell if they sin, it’s clear that they would like to avoid this and be as good person as possible.
To first restate my inital arugment:
"Furthermore, the idea of "being a good person" is different in scripture. You do good works because of a desire change in "the heart (kardia)" driven by the Holy Spirit, not your self. And the status of "good person" is reserved for those with no sins whatsoever. Only one who has walked the Earth managed to hit that status. The rest of us fall short. There are no good people, besides Jesus, in the Biblical view. Nor will there ever be."
Christians do not believe they go to hell because they sin. All sin. The Bible's view is one goes to hell when not saved. Being "saved" has a very specific description and set of criteria, of which good works is not a part. Relationship with Jesus is the point so to speak.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Romans 10:9-10 ESV
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 ESV
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Matthew 16:24-26 ESV
Being a good person doesn't have anything to do with salvation. Jesus instructs us on how to live a good life yes, but when all sin, pre and (in some cases) post "saved" and the standard is perfection, what's the point? What favor is a Christian supposed to be seeking when God has provided the ultimate gift, through grace, as none deserved it.
Even if perfection is impossible one may still strive to be as good as possible as a Christian.
Agreed. However it's not the point. Or worded differently, you don't decide to follow Jesus then simply look to check off good things you can do. What's the point anyway? You've already been saved if you have the status Christian. The good works amount to nothing in Jesus eyes.
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6 ESV
Literally equating our "good works" to that of, in modern terms, a used tampon.
Good works are simply a result of a heart change. They're a form of test of one's heart (believer or unbeliever). The Bible often refers to this as fruit of one kind or another.
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5:16-24 ESV
The Greek word here is kardia, defined as: the heart, inner life, intention, the mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
When you are saved and in that moment you become a Christian, the Holy Spirit transforms your heart (kardia) from one desiring things of the flesh to one desiring things of the Spirit. Thus, since you desire good where before you desired things against God's definition of good.
This leads to an understanding that if saved, good works will flow. Not because the person does them for any reason (like to gain favor or boast) but because they find themselves simply desiring to do these things where they didn't before. It's my experience over the last two years.
The idea of following can be thought of as child like dependence. To acknowledge all things flow from Christ and to be His representative. Even though we all will fail constantly. It's about that total dependence. To acknowledge what your sinful burdens (areas you struggle more than others. Think variations of the "7 deadly sins") and train your focus on Christ to live through Him. To be His representative while you're here, to the best of your ability.
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul?
Mark 8:34-37 ESV
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
2 Timothy 3:12 ESV
Of note here, desire to live, not succeed because you have to.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 ESV
"So we might become the righteousness of God". Bible speak for have sinless lives. This is referring to Jesus righteousness "covering" us, because of being saved, during final judgment so we may enter God's presence for eternity. We already all failed. There's no point to track the, still failing record after the conversion.
I think pro needs to brush up on the bible. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the good person is sinless. There are countless traits that are supported by the Bible that all add up to what can be considered as forgiven by God and passing the standards of heaven.
Take a look carefully at the following passages.
ROMANS 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
LUKE 18:19
“‘Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.’”COLOSSIANS 3:23
“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.”HEBREWS 12:14
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”Through countless famous phrases, the Bible preaches forgiveness, "love thy neighbor", and the golden rule of treating others how you want to be treated. There is a constant stress that even though no one is "good enough", not even the actually sinless Jesus Christ, people should strive to be good as the effort and belief in God itself suffices to join him in heaven. Because of God's telling of people what he expects, Christians who follow the bible want to be a good person, regardless of its impossibility. There is always someone better, and even Jesus follows the "almighty God" as described in the story. That does not negate the idea of Christianity is being a good person.
Consider the following idea, the idea of Physics is to find the "truth of the world". But nothing can be proven with 100% certainty. However, we can succeed beyond the shadow of the doubt. So even though the point is to prove as certainly as possible, some consistent laws of the universe, and our efforts have not managed to perfect it, our goal is still higher than our successes, because we want to set higher standards for us. This is similarly the point of Christianity. No one can be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. No one can be sinless throughout their entire life. But you can strive to do good and succeed on our own human standards. Even though Physics is not 100% confident in its results, we use it in our daily lives and it has rarely failed us, when we reach the most accurate results that we can get.
Round 3
I think pro needs to brush up on the bible. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the good person is sinless.
The Bible defines good by God's character. God is good. Jesus is God. Jesus was sinless and is a person. Therefore a good person is a sinless person by Biblical definition.
Actually your citation of Luke below shows this in part. Ill answer more thoroughly there.
There are countless traits that are supported by the Bible that all add up to what can be considered as forgiven by God and passing the standards of heaven.Take a look carefully at the following passages.ROMANS 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
This is referring to the "heart change". One where you went from desiring things against God's definition to desiring things of the Spirit. That's why it starts with, "those in Christ Jesus". Those who have been saved. Who are living with total dependence on Christ. Lord is appropriate. One with total power and authority over your life. Paul presents logical arguments.
A pretty decent summary of Romans ()
"The letter to the Romans stands as the clearest and most systematic presentation of Christian doctrine in all the Scriptures. Paul began by discussing that which is most easily observable in the world—the sinfulness of all humanity. All people have been condemned due to our rebellion against God. However, God in His grace offers us justification by faith in His Son, Jesus. When we are justified by God, we receive redemption, or salvation, because Christ’s blood covers our sin. But Paul made it clear that the believer’s pursuit of God doesn’t stop with salvation; it continues as each of us is sanctified—made holy—as we persist in following Him."
The riches of Heaven the Bible speaks of are not like presents. God grows us as people. Via discipline, like a father does a son (one of the reasons that anology model is so helpful). Life becomes more fufilling, you become more at peace as you're sanctified. More in-line with the original design.
We need to look at more to see what Paul means. This is after conversion, after salvation has been achieved.
It starts as a continuation from a prior point (the chapters were added later and were not part of the original letter to the Roman church):
(Trimmed for character count)
Romans 7:7-25 ESV
Paul wrestles with sinning after being saved. He continues where you started:
(Trimmed for character count)
Romans 8:1-6 ESV
Again talking about the heart change that takes place.
LUKE 18:19“‘Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.’”
John starts his Gospel, with a call back to Genesis, claiming the diety of Christ.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3 ESV
One of many verses citing Jesus as sinless.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 ESV
And finally the standard of good from the excerpt from Luke above.
This shows us that God is good and good is sinless so a good person is a sinless person.
COLOSSIANS 3:23“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.”
The same idea here that Paul was talking about. The sanctification process we work and fail at. We make progress, but thats to our own personal benefit. A further gift to us and the relationships we form. It deepens our relationship with God as well. Which was the point since the beginning. I think this 6min video sums it up very well (and much better than me): https://youtu.be/Zy2AQlK6C5k
If we add a few more verses to this excerpt, I think it further supports this point.
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.
Colossians 3:23-25 ESV
This more so is urging on behalf of the judgement we all face. Christians are forgiven so are granted eternity in God's presence on earth after judgement.
Once Christ returns, before things get kicking on earth as they were meant to be, all are held accountable for their actions. The above verses are basically saying, don't make that part any worse than it has to be. And why not?
So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 ESV
HEBREWS 12:14“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
Same thing. Sanctification not salvation. If we look at the context of the section, it's about not growing weary during sanctification. To hold steady because it's hard and we all will fail a lot. This is post conversion. Post achieving the title of Christian.
(Trimmed for character count)
Hebrews 12:3-15 ESV
"For the holiness without which no one will see the Lord " refers to the righteousness of Christ which covers us" refers to Christ being the bridge to Heaven. Essentially to be covered by Christ's righteousness is to have Him cover your "list of sins" with his blank one. It goes to on say, essentially, The Great Commission:
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:18-20 ESV
Through countless famous phrases, the Bible preaches forgiveness, "love thy neighbor", and the golden rule of treating others how you want to be treated.
This has to be looked at deeper. The Greek word for love chosen for this was agape. The full verse and some context of what the Greeks meant by agape type love adds a lot of context here. This was a response when asking to name the most important of all the commandments in the Law, starting with the Shema.
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:29-31 ESV
This 5min video sums it up very well. https://youtu.be/slyevQ1LW7A
There is a constant stress that even though no one is "good enough", not even the actually sinless Jesus Christ,
Jesus was good enough. That's the whole point. The way with which the bridge was created. The standard is good. Jesus is good. This standard is cited here in Jesus words:
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 ESV
Not to be saved, to enter Heaven. Since we're not, it's only through Jesus.
people should strive to be good as the effort and belief in God itself suffices to join him in heaven. Because of God's telling of people what he expects, Christians who follow the bible want to be a good person, regardless of its impossibility.
Demons "believe" in God. They know He exists in a way we don't. Simple belief isn't the point. It's putting Jesus as Lord over your whole life and repenting as a sinner before God.
Effort is explicitly called out as not the point all over the place. Good works im our lives at one point are equated to that of, in modern times, a used tampon compared to Jesus's life.
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6 ESV
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 11:6 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
There is always someone better, and even Jesus follows the "almighty God" as described in the story. That does not negate the idea of Christianity is being a good person.
Christian means Christ-follower. A title obtained upon a choice. You naturally desire to be good but it's only through God we are as Paul went into above. God is going to restore things to the way they were in the Garden of Eden. One in which we are in relationship with God and ruling over the Earth with Him. The point is to go back to that relationship.
Sorry I had to cut those verses out. I was out of characters.
I still don’t quite understand pros point. All the verses he has shown deliver the idea of being a good person. Jesus himself admitted he was not good enough and only God was truly good, despite being far beyond a person. Jesus was said to be righteous (having true authority to spread God’s word) due to being son of God and sinless. But countless followers have decided to repent and be accepted by god by being a good person in our standards alone, despite having other sins and initially rejecting god. This alone defeats pros case.
Round 4
I still don’t quite understand pros point. All the verses he has shown deliver the idea of being a good person.
Perhaps an anology. You are born in a foreign land with foreign rules. You grow up knowing these rules but also an internal moral ruleset which is different in some ways (Bible speaks of God writing the laws of morality on our hearts).
We then meet a guy (Jesus) who says He can take us to a new land based on those internal rules. We have to adopt his version of right and wrong but, if we acknowledge the rules we knew in our heart, repent of the times we broke those rules, and indeed follow this person giving them; then we are granted a ticket to this land. That ticket gives one the status of saved (Christian).
While we are waiting for our transport (death) to this new land (renewed physical Earth we are on now), we can seek to better align ourselves with the rules we were not following properly. Not required, we already have the ticket. Not the point, submitting to this person as Lord and that developing relationship is the point. We're simply looking to grow until that time comes. We won't get it right though. Over and over again.
Jesus himself admitted he was not good enough
I don't believe that to be a view found anywhere in the New Testament documents. . He claimed He is God in the flesh. Sinless. Perfect.
and only God was truly good,
And Jesus is God. It's the thing that separates Christians and the Jewish.
Jesus was said to be righteous (having true authority to spread God’s word) due to being son of God and sinless.
Son of God was just an anology and model. Jesus was not created, he's always existed.
But countless followers have decided to repent and be accepted by god by being a good person in our standards alone,
Repent and accepted by God. Done at that point. Being a good person in our standards is worthless when the true standard to judge good implies we're all wretches.
There are many theological errors cited about which are not consistent with the core and clear message of the Bible. The same core truths shared in detail across books (letters) like Romans. As well as found in every Christian churches statement of belief. Or put simply, the point of being a Christian can't be to be a good person because the Biblical view is none are good.
This is a nice summary of the Gospel (https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a-six-point-summary-of-the-gospel)
Here’s a summary of the gospel to help you understand it and enjoy it and share it!
1) God created us for his glory.
“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” (Isaiah 43:6–7). God made all of us in his own image so that we would image forth, or reflect, his character and moral beauty.
2) Therefore every human should live for God’s glory.
“Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). The way to live for the glory of God is to love him (Matthew 22:37), trust him (Romans 4:20), be thankful to him (Psalm 50:23), obey him (Matthew 5:16), and treasure him above all things (Philippians 3:8; Matthew 10:37). When we do these things we image forth God’s glory.
3) Nevertheless, we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “Although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him . . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images” (Romans 1:21–23). None of us has loved or trusted or thanked or obeyed or treasured God as we ought.
4) Therefore we all deserve eternal punishment.
“The wages of sin is (eternal) death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Those who did not obey the Lord Jesus “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
5) Yet, in his great mercy, God sent his only Son Jesus Christ into the world to provide for sinners the way of eternal life.
“God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13). “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18).
6) Therefore eternal life is a free gift to all who will trust in Christ as Lord and Savior and supreme Treasure of their lives.
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20). “I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ” (Philippians 3:8).
1) God created us for his glory.
“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” (Isaiah 43:6–7). God made all of us in his own image so that we would image forth, or reflect, his character and moral beauty.
2) Therefore every human should live for God’s glory.
“Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). The way to live for the glory of God is to love him (Matthew 22:37), trust him (Romans 4:20), be thankful to him (Psalm 50:23), obey him (Matthew 5:16), and treasure him above all things (Philippians 3:8; Matthew 10:37). When we do these things we image forth God’s glory.
3) Nevertheless, we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “Although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him . . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images” (Romans 1:21–23). None of us has loved or trusted or thanked or obeyed or treasured God as we ought.
4) Therefore we all deserve eternal punishment.
“The wages of sin is (eternal) death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Those who did not obey the Lord Jesus “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
5) Yet, in his great mercy, God sent his only Son Jesus Christ into the world to provide for sinners the way of eternal life.
“God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13). “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18).
6) Therefore eternal life is a free gift to all who will trust in Christ as Lord and Savior and supreme Treasure of their lives.
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20). “I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ” (Philippians 3:8).
I still don't see pro's argument. He says we live to become God's glory but never achieve it. Regardless of our results, the bible directly says we WANT to be like the perfect Jesus/God like figure. Unless Pro defeats this idea, he cannot win this debate. Just because perfection cannot be achieved does not mean our efforts are meaningless.
Round 5
I still don't see pro's argument. He says we live to become God's glory but never achieve it. Regardless of our results, the bible directly says we WANT to be like the perfect Jesus/God like figure.
Yes. As a result of a heart change. The point of becoming a Christian is to be saved and then the point is to continue deepening the relationship with Jesus.
Unless Pro defeats this idea, he cannot win this debate.
An assertion. Your claim to good works being the point is not supported in many places. Paul's full argument lays this out very logically but it's a thorough look with a lot of Bible language and often the need for a Greek Bible to confirm which word choice the Greeks used where they have multiple and we have one.
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:12-19 ESV
You need to continue all the way through Romans 8 for the bigger picture here. But here we even see another hint. Striving to do good works is striving to be obedient. The child father relationship is again helpful. At the end of this section Paul refernces the obedience and bridge that was created for all to take via Christ's obedience to the Father. Although again. Just a metaphor, Jesus was not created.
Just because perfection cannot be achieved does not mean our efforts are meaningless.
Our efforts serve to assist in the sanctification process outlined above. They're not meaningless but not the point. A further gift.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10 ESV
This is referring to original design of Eden. Good works or simply following the law was not something special or unique in the original design. It was the original design to live perfectly in relationship with God. Until Adam and Eve sinned.
We should walk in them because it was the original design. The point of Christianity is to walk with Christ so we may one day get back to that design. It's nothing to do with the good works while still living now.
The point of Christianity is to walk with Christ so we may one day get back to that design
There is no difference. If you wish to return to the design of perfection, regardless of following Christ or God, then the point of Christianity is to be a good person. Pro has defeated his own case. Vote for con.
You're welcome. I don't often have the time to read debates, but I enjoyed reading this one. Your conduct is always excellent, and you bring out the best in others.
That is awesome feedback thank you! I totally agree too. Thanks for taking the time! You didn't have to.
I think you've improved some. You were making some decent arguments. As I said in my vote, brevity and clarity would help. You need to think about what you need to prove and how your points relate to that. While you wrote a lot of words, many of them didn't have much to do with the resolution.
This verse is in the same context as Galatians 5, which goes much more in depth. An increase in good fruits of the spirits lead to good works because it's now what you want to do, where before you didn't. If you don't have good fruit, you're not a follower of Christ (faith) and therefore faith without works can be thought of as dead. James goes on after that first verse to elaborate on his meaning. For a much more logically based argument, and longer, Romans goes VERY into this idea. Especially around chapters 5, 6, 7.
When the people around you understand the context and you have limited space with which to write, you don't always add the level of context next to every single similar claim as we would today. You have to look at the larger narrative of that section as well as the New Testament story to see if the conclusions follow.
Faith without works is dead right?
perhaps this debate was what you were looking for? https://www.debateart.com/debates/1244-is-christianity-a-good-moral-system-to-follow
vote?
Agreed. Christianity sure doesn't.
If your religion advicates you to be evil, then you have no religion, you have a cult.