Mm - had a bit of a chuckle with myself about the Merriam Webster definition for Christianity - I apologise, I had not consciously recognised the term 'religion' was actually in the definition. Accepting that would have been concession on your part, so I suppose I must say "Drat, foiled again." or something of the sort.
It's mildly frustrating that we're in Round 3 and we haven't begun the substance of our argument - so if you'd like to start again we can pretend this one doesn't exist and start over with the definitions we agree upon here. Back to the drawing board. If you're content to have only two rounds of actual debate, however - one for each of our points and a round for rebuttal and conclusion - then I would be happy with that as well.
That said - if we are going to continue to use this debate rather than making a new one - direct message me prior to posting your Round 4 if there's still an issue with the definitions. (Ah, the definitions, the definitions. Woe, the definitions.)
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Definitions 2; Electric Boogaloo
Religion: "A system of beliefs, specifically with a standard of moral conduct that evaluates the status of a person based on their adherence to rules, traditions, or the performance of required acts."
This one is confirmed. Both sides. Hallelujah.
Christian - a person who has come to have belief in the diety of Christ, the acknowledgement that they are a sinner, that Christ died sinless, and a acknowledgement that God's gift of grace is our only option for salvation. Let's call this saving belief (SB). Salvation being something we cant earn ourselves, but can achieve. Sin and the gift of grace clearly outlined in the documents containing Jesus words on this matter which have been all binded together under the title Bible.
This is quite... verbose. Not to mention it contains another definition... as well as the issue that 'earn' and 'achieve' are synonymous... and - the Bible is many things - wisdom, truth, metaphor, historical document, all-round bestseller - but it is most certainly not clear. So, some trimming and a little bit of boot polish...
Christian - a person who has come to believe in the deity of Christ, ...
And a little something extra in lieu of what was pruned - to the proposed definition.
Christian - "a person who has come to believe in the deity of Christ, and all that entails - specifically as outlined in the Bible, the associated holy text."
We also seem to have the desire to define 'salvation', so:
Salvation: "deliverance from the power and effects of sin." [
3]
A system of beliefs which outlines the conditions one must arrive to/be at/have achieved (a little not sure how I want to say this so it calls out what I outlined in Christian directly above) to aquire eternal salvation with God. One which never has a status for its followers which can be achieved through adherence to rules, traditions, or the performance of suggested acts. The only required act is repentance (acknowledgement of status as a sinner).
So - three problems with this.
- You don't sound certain yourself. "... a little not sure...".
- The second last sentence quite literally defeats the purpose of this debate. "One which never... *copied and pasted definition of religion.*
- This is the worst one - the very last sentence contradicts the second one - i.e., "...never has a status... which can be achieved through... suggested acts." And then only a few centimetres later - "...required act...". This is nigh on concession of the resolution, and would break your argument.
Before I revise another definition - I'll go over the issues you had with the Merriam Webster one.
- It can't be based on the Bible. A book that wasn't in existence until many years after Jesus rose. Furthermore, even the eyewitness accounts, letters to specific churches to help them, etc that would eventually be aggregated together and called, The Bible were still being written when the above description would say Christians would have been possible (and were definitely seen and recorded in some of the writings that would get selected for the Bible.
If you wish to abscond the Bible from this debate, then we have issues.
- If not the Bible - then what, exactly? Do Christians not study the Bible?
- Pro, R3, context above, "A book that wasn't in existence until many years after Jesus rose." Old Testament, somewhere between 1200 and 165 BC, [4].
- Pro, R3, quote, regarding the the definition of Christian, "clearly outlined in the ... Bible."
- I suppose to call out, the Bible was not written by the authors to be the Bible. I'd claim when Paul wrote letters to help churches in Rome and Corinth, he had no idea these would be branded Romans and 1st/2nd Corinthians and binded together with other texts to form the New Testament.
- It can't be based on the Bible as sacred scripture if the Bible wasn't in existence for the original Christians and since the writings referenced were not written for that purpose.
Regardless of authorial intent - the Bible is still used as the main religious text in the Christian faith. It's frequently called "God's word", [
5]. Pro, you yourself are currently in debate with Oromagi, attempting to use - quote - a "Biblically based argument" in order to properly define Christianity. [
6]
"It can't be based on the Bible as sacred scripture..." - same point twice, but it
is. Regardless of the original Christians - modern day Christians - for
centuries, have studied the Bible as a sacred text. This is impossible to dispute - it's been sold five billion times, for goodness sake. [
7]
- Finally, denominations are a man made thing with no prerogative to split into these groups called out by God. As we define Christian from Jesus (God's) words, a man made thing God never instructed us to do shouldn't have a place in the definition.
Yeah, okay. The reason makes me mildly uncomfortable, but I'm happy to dispense with the different flavours of the Christian faith in the definition.
And, so, at last, Con's revised definition of Christianity.
Christianity: "The Christian faith, following the teachings of Jesus Christ, as outlined in the Bible, the associated sacred text."
Vanilla.
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Thanks for your time and effort, UpholdingTheFaith - will see you in R4. Again - if you still find these definitions problematic, direct message me before the next Round.
Sources:
So the main point is when people say things in these discussions like look at what has resulted from religion and names all kinds of terrible acts and deeds done through history, or bring up the legalistic image based stereotypical "religious" person, that these ideas and things are in direct contrast to Christianity. And if that what's being used then Christianity most certainly is not. Thay said, you all have a point. Perhaps a more fair title would be Christianity is not a religion, per the colloquial definiton of religion? I just don't think it's fair to equate Christianity with things that Jesus literally rallied against.
For example. In more than one debate I've seen the quote from Richard Dawkins brought up, in the context of applying to Christianity, where he says that forcing a religion on your child is akin to child abuse.
The problem. You can't force someone to love someone. A Christian is called to love God and love neighbor. You can't force someone to believe something. A Christian is called to believe in the diety of Christ and their being a sinner. I can go on. What's more, that quote is usually used in conjuction with my reference to the colloquial definition above. I think this is unfair and wish we could all at least be on the same page about what is and isn't Christianity and the way of life preached by Christ. Not that I claim to have every answer. Far from it. But the Bible is clear on the core tenants of Christianity. No interpretation required. I legitimately want to have these conversations, but there's no sense if we're not able to start from the same understanding. Then, they often simply turn out to be very unfruitful. And what a shame given the gift we have to be able to converse in this fashion.
Babylon Bee: Jesus Surprised to Learn Christianity Not a Religion
https://babylonbee.com/news/jesus-surprised-to-learn-christianity-not-a-religion/
Dis guy posted “your definition of Christianity is incorrect” then this.
Just noticed your definition in the debates tab - unsure if you just updated that recently or if I missed it.
If it's the latter, apologies - but I've accepted the debate and look forward to our discussion.
Semantics. "Proposed definition", please.
This debate definitely needs a definition for religion in the description to be pre-agreed with acceptable of the debate challenge.