Instigator / Pro

seldiora

1417

rating

158

debates

32.59%

won

Topic

#2267

This Debate Will End in a Tie

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Intelligence_06

Tags

Miscellaneous

Parameters

Publication date: 08.24.2020 12:58AM
Last updated date: 08.31.2020 07:39PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Intelligence_06

1737

rating

172

debates

73.26%

won

Description

"tie": pro and con have equal points.

this debate: this exact debate

Round 1

seldiora

08.24.2020 01:43AM

Pro

Status quo

because the default result of a debate is a tie, if neither side defeats the other, it will be a tie. Hence, this debate will be a tie.

Equal opportunities

a debate has three outcomes: pro wins, tie, or con wins. But since each debater has equal character limit, time to post, and resources of the internet, I'm not seeing clear ideas that help either pro or con. As such, pro and con are equal and this debate will end in a tie.

Limited time

There is only one week to vote on this debate after it ends. Since this is a highly unorthodox debate, I feel like it wouldn't attract voters very well. As such, the debate will end in a tie.

Intelligence_06

08.24.2020 02:25AM

Con

Contention 1: PRO cannot possibly know the future

It is a fact that humans cannot know the future, especially over 7 days of the future. PRO's evidence is merely that this debate is most likely going to end in a tie, but not that it will, 100%, assuredly, end in a tie.

Contention 2: If CON's arguments successfully defeat PRO's arguments, then CON wins this debate.

The argument above defeats PRO's whole argument because PRO's "argument" proves not PRO's BoP, thus CON wins this debate by now.

Contention 3: A lose is no tie

Common sense. If PRO loses this debate, it means he will not tie this debate.

Overall, PRO failed to fulfill his BoP because it is basically impossible. Because of that, I declare it is unsupported to declare that this debate will end in a tie.

If my opponent considers everything above mere gish gallop, then he has the ability to win it, which means not tying.

Round 2

seldiora

08.24.2020 02:54PM

Pro

con says I can't know the future, but the default is already tied which I know with 100% certainty. He says he doesn't see any support but the status quo is already a tie, and he has to give good reasons why either side won the debate. Remember that even if one of us won the debate, con hasn't offered any reason why people would vote on it in the first place. I said it's not a significant topic and wouldn't attract voters. Everyone would be confused who to vote for (since I am advocating for a tie, while con has to assert various reasons why one of us won) and make it a tie. We already see him making an argument for himself, then making an argument for me. You can see the confusion is even getting to con and his arguments balance out. As such, this debate will end in a tie.

Intelligence_06

08.24.2020 03:49PM

Con

Rebuttal: Status Quo

Refuting with the status quo is not an efficient matter because, given the same things, the better person will prevail.

Let's compare the best debater and the worst debater statistically within this site.

https://www.debateart.com/debates/615-the-classical-european-knight-would-generally-defeat-the-classical-samurai-of-feudal-japan-in-single-combat

On one hand, we have the Undefeated Oromagi with a current record of 86:0. On the other, we have a semi-troll who may or may not be offensive, and may even forfeit. In this discourse, Oro is the only one that has given a sufficient argument, hence he prevails. This is an example of that the better you are, the more you will bring out based on what you have.

https://miro.medium.com/max/7972/1*JGFbsd9l6gpijJd23KTDrg.png

This image disproves my opponent. I am not encouraging inequality but this shows the taller guy can see the match better whereas the shorter guy can't. Pro is illustrating that because everyone is has given the same thing, they will tie it. If so, it would mean the short guy will see the match as well as the taller guy because equality, which is not what is happening based on common sense.

In other words, the better debater will probably prevail, and this system is not designed to tie every debate. This system is to bring equality(same grounds, the winner is better arguing what he/she/they have argued), not equity(The goal of this system is to bring ties).

As long as Pro's argument wins against Con's or the other way around, this will not end up a tie. This would mean even if Pro successfully refutes Con in this round leaving Con speechless, Pro also loses since it would mean a non-tie.

Conclusions:

Pro still cannot predict the future
Pro proved not why this debate WILL end in a tie
This system is promoting equality, not equity. The better argument wins.
The argument above disproved Pro's points, and thus, please vote Con.

Round 3

seldiora

08.24.2020 06:00PM

Pro

my opponent makes an excellent argument, but has made no case concerning whether or not he is actually better than me. There is too less information to know who will win with 100% certainty -- he only has 17 debates with 80% winrate, but I have over 350 debates with 60% winrate( https://www.debate.org/9spaceking/ + my own profile here). This debate is also highly unorthodox and he has never had this exact debate before. I have experience advantage, but a lot of times I tend to pick debates I can't win. So we don't know for sure who's going to win this debate. As such, both sides are at an equity, a stalemate, and hence the debate will end in a tie. The fact that con also can't predict the future with 100% certainty means the only information we have available is, with no information given by both participants, this debate will be a tie. Consider if both pro and con forfeited each round, it would be a tie right? Or if pro said he knew nothing about the topic, and con said he also knew nothing and both sides couldn't prove anything, the debate would also end in a tie. As we each give decent arguments to both sides, it's unclear who has the advantage, and thus, this debate will end in a tie.

Intelligence_06

08.24.2020 07:39PM

Con

THBT: PRO cannot prove that this debate will end in a tie

Rebuttal: THE BOP

Pro's BoP is that he is sure that this debate will be a tie, not just most likely, but assuredly. Let me summarize all the points Pro made in this debate.

The Status Quo is tying
The system promotes equality
No one will vote because confusion
Con isn't better than Pro
Con cannot prove that this cannot end in a tie

I will refute each of the five(again).

1. Status Quo

As I have said the last round, the status quo is tying, which is true, however, just because the default is tying doesn't mean this debate WILL tie considering if someone votes either side, then it is no tie. Pro cannot negate this scenario. Plus, using my evidence, almost every debate I have been in has at least one vote[1], so saying there is none would be unlikely, let alone 100% likely.

2. Equality

As I have explained last round, this website does offer everyone equal chances, which is correct. However, the better debater prevails. This website does not make the worse debaters easier. It is sheer equality. Now, I can prove that I am better than my opponent: Upon all the debates we have engaged in voting or post-voting period, the win ratio is 6:1[2], which would mean that I have won against my opponent in 83% of our debates, which would mean I am more likely to win this debate, which would negate a tie. Even if Pro proved that he is better at debating, it would just mean Pro will win, which would mean a non-tie. Either way, unless Pro, which has the BoP, proves that both of us have the exact same skill and arguments, it is impossible to say that it is a tie.

3. Confusion

If people are voting on a confusing debate like this one[3](No concessions here), then people are more likely than unlikely to vote on this one. Again, even if no one votes on this one, Pro still cannot prove that no one will vote definitely because there is a chance someone will vote. I have put this debate up for solicitation on the respective thread[4], which would mean that people are more likely to vote than to not vote.

4. Con is not better than Pro

I have stated that the ratio of me winning and losing against my opponent is 6:1, and previous experiences would obviously be less reliable about the present than the relatively close evidence. I cannot 100% prove that Con is better than Pro, but what I can prove is that this won't 100% end in a tie.

5. Con cannot prove that this won't end up a tie

Here lies the problem: Pro, by default, bears the BoP. So, if he is pushing the BoP onto me that would be considered a fallacy. Pro is the one that needs to prove that this will end up a tie, and he did not do that: Merely that I have not proven my case. If Pro failed to prove his BoP, then please vote for me! Vote for Con!

Sources

[1]https://www.debateart.com/participants/Intelligence_06/debates?

[2]ibid

[3]https://www.debateart.com/debates/2245-con-will-lose-this-debate-named-debate-a

[4]https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3492-vote-requests

TNBinc

08.24.2020 08:00PM

-->

@seldiora

your argument undermines the contender advantage

https://ddo.fandom.com/wiki/Contender_Advantage

TNBinc

08.24.2020 04:03PM

-->

@seldiora

How

seldiora

08.24.2020 02:56PM

-->

@TNBinc

I could easily claim cherry pick fallacy and that 17 debate with 88% win is nothing compared to 350 debates with 60% winrate (https://www.debate.org/9spaceking/)

TNBinc

08.24.2020 11:08AM

-->

@seldiora

@Intelligence_06

the way the question is phrased mainly guarantees 'this debate will end in a tie'. Based on your win percentages, seldiora cannot infer that "equal oppurtunities" are happening because of rating and win percentages lean towards Intelligence_06 winning.

Intelligence_06

08.24.2020 01:16AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHC1230OpOg

Barney

08.24.2020 08:40PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Kinda nice to see these paradox debates making a comeback.

The resolution probably should have been 'most likely' instead of will (still, I would not put the BoP beyond the realm of doubt or anything crazy like that).

Still, con did a good job showing there are different skill levels to the debaters, which leaves it more likely than not that one of them will pull it out of the defaulty tied range. Pro of course argued that tied is the default, and it's a non-traditional topic, but this did not even strongly imply the likelihood.

Sources from pro could have greatly improved his case, by showing similar such debates which indeed ended in ties.

TNBinc

08.24.2020 08:20PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

So the resolution is, this debate will end in a tie, and the question it asks is "Which particpant won the debate"?
I'll just dismiss the fact that this is a half-paradox.

Con used many sources to back up his argument which I consider essential in these type of "prediction" debates.

Just a side note--CON either has to prove seldiora will win or he will win, and seldiora has to prove it is a tie. However, if seldiora wins the argument, that cannot happen beacuse he proves it is a tie. Conversely, CON's position makes sense because he can prove that he will win-- and he will win vote-wise.

I really liked CON's third argument--It really gave it a boost in terms of argument quality.

In the first round CON says it is a paradox and at the end of the day, he has to win. Seldiora counters by saying it he knows it will tie with certanity which has no sources--whats the proof?

I would vote CON since his argument is very solid. Plus, he is the only person with a valid, reasonable stance that is not a paradox.