Instigator / Pro

seldiora

1417

rating

158

debates

32.59%

won

Topic

#2215

Oromagi is the best active debater on DebateArt

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 4 votes and with 14 points ahead, the winner is...

BearMan

Tags

Miscellaneous

Parameters

Publication date: 08.04.2020 10:12PM
Last updated date: 08.22.2020 10:52PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 5,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

BearMan

1615

rating

debates

93.75%

won

Description

best: of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality.
debater: a person who argues about a subject, especially in a formal manner.
debateart: this website
active: accepting and/or currently participating in debates
Let's see if anyone can defeat this idea!

Round 1

seldiora

08.07.2020 06:54PM

Pro

Oromagi has won more debates than anyone else on DebateArt: 80+ in a row without losing. His argument is very penetrating and he has taken a rhetoric class under his belt, which not everyone has access to. His experience and his win record go to show that he is most likely the best debater on Debateart. Even on Debate.org, his loses were only Bsh1 (who is now inactive on DebateArt and thus not a competition), a debate with merely one vote and thus questionable results, Imabench within a troll related debate (and thus not serious, and therefore not truly indication of his overall debating skills), and Ragnar (once again at a margin of merely one vote), who indeed has similar win rate but has not gone up against any truly tough opponent in quite some time. Over six years, Oromagi has chances to learn from his losses and improve his debating skill, while Ragnar seems to have stagnated even as a contender. Oromagi has defeated Rational Madman, a decent debater in his own right, while looking at Ragnar, he has not had a serious opportunity to truly improve his skills.

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1755/israel-has-no-right-to-exist -- Ragnar's opponent plagiarizes and forfeits his case

https://www.debateart.com/debates/2111/it-does-not-make-sense-to-believe-in-god -- Ragnar's opponent forfeits

https://www.debateart.com/debates/577/perpetrators-of-minor-crimes-should-not-be-arrested -- Ragnar wins against someone with a lengthy argument, but only has two debates under their belt to begin with

https://www.debateart.com/debates/752/5g-internet-is-a-death-grid -- Ragnar easily refutes pro's burden of proof

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1895/as-a-businessman-donald-trump-distinguished-himself-with-endless-bankruptcies -- Ragnar's opponent forfeits.

Compare this to Oromagi's debates:

https://www.debateart.com/debates/2152/thbt-the-roman-catholic-church-is-christian -- Oromagi battles his opponent over multiple rounds to contest the position (this man had 10 debates, much more experience than just 2)

https://www.debateart.com/debates/2154/americans-ought-to-feel-national-pride-7-42k-characters -- Oromagi outwits another debater with over 10 debates under their belt in a completely different topic

https://www.debateart.com/debates/2055/micro-debate-theoretically-the-battle-of-jutland-was-a-german-victory -- Oromagi uses fewer words but manages to prove his point against yet another person with more than 10 debates

https://www.debateart.com/debates/2069/china-should-be-held-accountable-for-covid-19 -- Yet another person with greater than 10 debates under their belt defeated

I'll admit, sometimes Oromagi's opponents also forfeit, but as he has accepted far more debates than Ragnar, and the examples I provided, it seems clear to me that overall Oromagi's debates have higher quality. (Keep in mind that Debate.org was filled with more inactive people and Ragnar gave off the impression of Noob sniper)

I could give even more examples from DDO -- https://www.debate.org/debates/Should-adults-have-the-right-to-carry-concealed-weapons-in-public/1/, https://www.debate.org/debates/Genome-editing-in-a-fetus-is-negative./1/, https://www.debate.org/debates/The-chicken-came-first-on-the-earth-not-the-egg/1/, https://www.debate.org/debates/are-american-women-worth-it/1/ ... so on and so forth.

Conclusion: The only debater I could see replicating Oromagi's feat is Ragnar (including DDO debates), but it seems to me, *because* Oromagi has lost against Bsh1, he at least got to know how to improve his arguments. There is a Chinese saying, failure is the mother of success. Because Oromagi had lost these handful of debates years ago, he was able to go 80 debates without losing on DebateArt, and against relatively solid opponents overall. The case stands. He is the best active debater on Debateart.

(remember that Bsh1 is inactive, so even if he did defeat Oromagi he is not applicable for this debate)

BearMan

08.08.2020 03:10PM

Con

BE IT RESOLVED:

Oromagi is the Best Active Debater on DebateArt

Key Definitions:

Best: of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality.

Debater: a person who argues about a subject, especially in a formal manner.*

DebateArt: this website

Active: accepting and/or currently participating in debates

*more accurately described in “What Makes a Good Debater’

Interpretation of the Resolution:

PRO will have to prove that oromagi is more excellent, effective, or of better quality, than every single active debater in the site. CON has to disprove this statement, meaning that the BURDEN OF PROOF is on PRO.

The scope of this debate should be not related to other websites, but only DebateArt.

Prelude:

The problem with my opponent’s resolution is that he has to prove that every single active debater is worse than oromagi in every single way possible (related to debating). My opponent does not effectively describe a debater carefully, leaving the real question in place: what makes a good debater?

What Makes a Good Debater?:

As stated in the prelude, my opponent or PRO does not effectively describe a good debater. Notice, that PRO does not prove that oromagi is a good debater, rather he proves that he is good at arguing with others, which is not the entirety of a good debater. So, now to answer the question, here are criteria that should be found in a good debater.

1. Ability to Recognize and Use Good Format[1]

Oromagi has never been known for his format, Ragnar is. Ragnar has posted a format guide of DebateArt and DDO, which is still widely used today. It is clear that oromagi is not the best at this. The user RationalMadman even flat out says that he gets eyesores reading through oromagi’s formatting.

2. Ability to Persuade[1]

There is not a doubt that oromagi has the ability to persuade. The question leads: is oromagi the greatest at persuading? Let me point out another flaw in my opponent’s argument. Oromagi has admitted that he is worse than Ragnar at debating.

“I call that false modesty on Ragnar part. Consider he had an undefeated record on a site with thousands of active and experienced debaters- orders of magnitude greater degree of difficulty. I think anybody can beat anybody under the right circumstances but I assume Ragnar could hand me my ass in any more formal venue or traditional resolution. He has ten times my experience and excels at deduction. I think I’m pretty good at style and originality but in the world of formal debate I think those abilities count for less while Ragnar’s skills weigh heavier.I’d say 9 times in 10, Ragnar would win. ” [3]

Another flaw with my opponent’s argument is that he is cherry picking oromagi’s debates. It may seem that oromagi accepts quality debates, but in reality, my opponent is misinforming the voters. When a logical person actually looks through oromagi’s debates, it becomes apparent that he debates a user named “Ramdatt”(who is a troll who lost 19 debates out of 19) regularly, a user named “PaulVerliane”(who is also a troll), and a user named “billbatard” who is a troll(59 out of 75 lost).

3.Ability to Lose and Improve[2]

Ultimately, a trait of a good debater is to lose. Those who always win never learn and remain somewhat the same. Those who win and lose on the other hand do improve and succeed. The best debaters have lost, and the best debaters will lose. Oromagi has lost, the question to ask is: has he lost enough? Has the user oromagi lost enough debates to improve and be a better debater? No, he has not. My opponent mentions only three times in which he has lost, which doesn’t seem nearly good enough to improve. Let’s take a look at a user named User_2006, or anc_2006. He has participated in 47 debates, and 29 of them were losses. [4] He has shown significant improvement, which is acknowledged by several users, including myself. User_2006’s ELO is 1415, that is absolutely terrible (no offense). Now, he goes by the name Intelligence_06. His ELO is now a whopping 1585, showing a 170 point difference. Has oromagi improved by that much? No.

4. Ability to Use Multiple Arguments

Can't fit inside word limit. Debate next round.

In conclusion:

Oromagi is not the best at formatting

Oromagi is not the best at persuading

Oromagi is not the best at losing or improving

CONCLUSION:

Even though oromagi has the highest ELO, it does not mean he is the best active user on DebateArt. The resolution does not include the word “overall” which means that oromagi must be better than every single active debater at every single one of the listed criteria. My opponent seems to think that the only debaters on this site are Ragnar and bsh1, because he has only compared Ragnar with oromagi, rather than every single active debater.

Round 2

seldiora

08.08.2020 10:12PM

Pro

I concede. Well said.

BearMan

08.08.2020 10:14PM

Con

Thanks bro.

Round 3

seldiora

08.08.2020 10:14PM

Pro

gg vote con

BearMan

08.08.2020 10:52PM

Con

Vote Con.

Intelligence_06

08.09.2020 12:52PM

"multiaccounting"?

RationalMadman

08.07.2020 09:20AM

-->

@seldiora

whiteflame isn't an active debater under your definition. I would prove that 'best' has elements to it that you're ignoring and that Oromagi continually takes easy sides on all topics.

skittlez09

08.07.2020 06:44AM

-->

@seldiora

I'd say RM is the best debater on the site currently but oromagi follows behind him

oromagi does have a better ELO an win loss ratio than RM, but RM takes on more challenging debates an has more creativity with his arguments

not to mention he also has alot more debate experience than oromagi

honestly i would take this debate up but ill just let RM do it

seldiora

08.07.2020 02:59AM

-->

@RationalMadman

you could definitely prove that Whiteflame is better than Oromagi using that many characters LOL

RationalMadman

08.06.2020 12:49PM

-->

@seldiora

increase char count to 17k and I'll accept. Minimum 17k.

MisterChris

08.05.2020 10:57PM

-->

@seldiora

He definitely is within the top 2-3. Definitely better than I am (although admittedly he debated me when I was new to the site and really just developing my debate style and skill. The end result would be the same but I like to think it would be more of a challenge for him now). It would be fun to see a full-blown debate tournament where (try) to see who truly is the best debater on the site.

RationalMadman

08.09.2020 09:33AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Multiaccounting

Trent0405

08.08.2020 11:32PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession.

Username

08.08.2020 11:30PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

pro pro ceded to cede

Intelligence_06

08.08.2020 11:27PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

concession