Instigator / Pro
15
1417
rating
158
debates
32.59%
won
Topic
#2200
seldiora (instigator of this debate) would beat Oromagi in a rap battle
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
oromagi
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
18
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description
rap battle: having a rapping contest against someone else, where most of the lyrics are insults directed at the other rapper which have to rhyme at the same time. Winner is that with better rhythm, flow, wordplay, etc.
Assume that in this theoretical rap battle we have the same amount of line limit and time limit
Burden of proof is shared.
Round 1
my opponent says in the comment section that just because he is never going to accept an actual rap battle means that I can't prove the title. However, *because* he admits that he has zero rap experience (and will NEVER have any because he says he will never accept a rap battle), I would definitely defeat him in a rap battle. He has only said to take rhetoric classes, which are useful for nonfiction writing, but he has never proved that he knows verse and prose well. Take a look at one of my best rounds, from DDO (edited slightly):
Truth got no good round, all I hear are some terrible sounds
Bein' a howlin' poor hound, his life is in my hands, my powers have limitless bounds
There's only one true man in this town, he's the one who can truly pound you down
Yeah that me, I can embarrass you, make you put on your weddin' gown
Truth's like light precipitation, easily fainted and swayed, gave in little dedication
While I got stormy foundation, no wind can wipe me away, got quick reformation
My insults make his looks like lamentations; he's a village an' I'm a world-wide power nation
His family better prepare for his cremation, search for a haven, a good safe location
But it's useless, there ain't no hidin' from me, it's futile for such resistance
We can tell he was muse-less, no inspirin' words, his rhymes just vanish out of existence
He think he got me murdered, think again, "smart man", I'm not that easily defeated
He can't take no more or go further, I stand a giant over him, mission completed
To even get the slightest chance at me, you need more than just those puny verses
Glancin' at his collapsin' structure gives me glee, I know I cast successful curses
I masterfully manipulate the language, while still managin' to mutilate Seeker
He's peein' his pants over there in anguish, to him I'm a deadly Grim Reaper
This over, Truth's lost his third challenge, that couldn't even be considered a "good try"
I'm still a Ferrari while he's still a rover; I bet from losin' he got a bunch of black eyes
Now, I could analyze this deeply, but let me quickly go over why this is very difficult to beat: I rhymed round, sounds, hounds, bound, town, pound, down, gown, with reference to the sounds from his merely being a hound. Then I say that he is precipitation and little dedication compared to my storm with reformation. I then talk about how he's only a village while I'm a power nation. The next verse is also very tricky, with useless rhyming museless, hidin with inspirin, resistance with existence. The second to last verse is arguably the strongest, with verses rhyming with curses, me and glee, glancin' versus collapsin', and finally rhyming his name Seeker with Reaper. Rapping, rhythm, takes practice, takes a lot of inspiration and rhyming. I've had years of experience with writing poetry (especially with my "A Medieval Tale" from https://www.deviantart.com/sel-diora/art/A-Medieval-Tale-477108579 being a very challenging haiku based challenge with occasional rhyming that Oromagi has not demonstrated), with writing songs (https://www.noteflight.com/profile/ae3207969e43c53cf5fd9c5303e0ca8ae109a346), I know about flow and the way that rap relating things should work. It took me years to get to this level, and even a professional rapper agree it takes time to polish your skills and improve your rapping ability (https://rapgamenow.com/get-good-at-rapping-answer/).
Unless Oromagi demonstrates he is a genius in terms of musical phrasing such that he can write amazing rap and be able to beat or even draw me, I think he stands no chance with merely a rhetoric class under his belt. Remember, he has to know how to rhyme, how to set up various insults in comparison, simile, or any other way. Through his debates, he has shown power to penetrate arguments and recite sources. But without any strong original wording of his own, it's hard to see how he could possibly beat me in a rap battle.
Thx, seldiora.
THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE
DEFINITONS:
BEAT [transative verb] is "to win against; to defeat or overcome; to do better than, outdo, or excel (someone) in a particular, competitive event."
BATTLE RAP is "a type of rapping that includes bragging, insults and boasting content. Battling can occur on recorded albums, though rap battles are often recited or freestyled spontaneously in live battles, "where MCs will perform on the same stage to see who has the better verses".
BURDEN of PROOF:
WiKiPEDiA advises:
- "When
two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other
disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to
justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a
perceived status quo. This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which
declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed
without evidence." Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion –
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – which is known
as the Sagan standard."
- PRO is the instigator of this debate as well as the maker of extraordinary claims.
- The BURDEN of PROOF remains PRO's by any rational understanding of such burden and in spite of PRO's tactical offering that the burden is shared.
- CON interprets PRO's resolution to mean that CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail as unproven.
PRO1R1:
However, *because* he admits that he has zero rap experience (and will NEVER have any because he says he will never accept a rap battle), I would definitely defeat him in a rap battle.
- OBJECTION: CON has made no such concession in the context of this debate and related remark by this debater in other debates or forum postings is entirely inadmissible as evidence in this debate.
PRO2R1:
Unless Oromagi demonstrates he is a genius in terms of musical phrasing such that he can write amazing rap and be able to beat or even draw me, I think he stands no chance with merely a rhetoric class under his belt.
- This statement is quite false. CON has no need to demonstrate any lyrical capacity here, only to show that PRO can't prove his thesis. The less CON offers in terms of relative poetic experience in the context of this debate, the more unproven and unprovable PRO's thesis.
CONCLUSION:
- PRO has made the fatal mistake of offering speculation about some hypothetical rap battle in the form of a debate as a weak substitute or potential call-out in lieu of an actual rap competition, which contest CON hardily advocates for but considers this debate format a poor venue. Further, CON argues that non-debate competitions in the DEBATEART venue lessens the quality of debates overall and reflects talents irrelevant to our present mission of high quality debate.
CON looks forward to PRO's R2 argument.
SOURCES
Round 2
Oromagi has presented no evidence to the contrary and my argument stands. I have shown my best rap from my past battle, I have shown my poem experience and my knowledge of song flow to similarly understand how rap songs or verse should work. He claims that because there is no evidence that he is bad, I cannot prove that I will beat him. But lack of evidence would prove that he has indeed not participated in a rap battle, hence having no experience. He has provided no poems to prove that he at least has a basis to go upon before going into a rap battle. *He has shown no evidence that he is good, to contradict my claims.*
Consider this: If I said Eminem could beat someone who had no sample of rap battles or poems known, you would definitely agree with no indication that this "someone" is a genius. If that someone cannot come up with any sample of rap that has potential, then Eminem holds the grounds as he is an extremely well known rapper with years of experience and countless songs that achieved national recognition.
I am not as nearly as famous or amazing like Eminem, but I have some experience under my belt which would by default defeat someone who has provided no evidence to the contrary. If Oromagi was indeed decent at rapping and could beat me, he could even compose something on the spot to defeat my verses. But by refusing to provide any evidence, he infers that indeed, my suspicions are correct and that he cannot rap as well as me.
Oromagi's argument doesn't hold up because it doesn't make sense. Imagine it was some other vague skill that I would not truly know his skill within. I took the gambit and guessed that Oromagi did not have time to gain rapping skills, poem skills, et cetera. It is up to Oromagi to throw off my gambit and prove me wrong. If I said I was better at piano than Oromagi and showed myself playing some song, then it would only make sense for Oromagi to play an even more difficult song, rather than stating something like "he does not know how well I can play so he cannot say this piano ability is better than mine". Doesn't this seem like the argument that only someone would lose would say? If he could truly play the piano better than me, why wouldn't he show this? It doesn't make sense. By avoiding challenging the topic, Oromagi implies that he would in fact lose the rap battle (since he is unable to display his rap style or evidence that he may be good at rapping).
Thx, seldiora.
THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE
DEFINITONS:
PRO has made no complaint regarding definitions. Definitions stand.
BURDEN of PROOF:
By non-response, PRO accepts CON's correction regarding burden of proof.
- CON interprets PRO's resolution to mean that
CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any
hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful
evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on
this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail
as unproven.
PRO1R2:
- OBJECTION: CON has made no such concession in the context of this debate and related remark by this debater in other debates or forum postings is entirely inadmissible as evidence in this debate.
- PRO dropped this argument. CON has never critiqued his own experience in rap.
PRO2R2:
- This statement is quite false. CON has no need to demonstrate any lyrical capacity here, only to show that PRO can't prove his thesis. The less CON offers in terms of relative poetic experience in the context of this debate, the more unproven and unprovable PRO's thesis.
- PRO dropped this argument.
PRO3R2:
- Oromagi has presented no evidence to the contrary and my argument stands.
- On the contrary, CON argued that no evidence is available for PRO to present which is itself evidence, contradiction, and stands refuted by PRO.
- Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but it is evidence of absence of evidence.
PRO4R2:
- I have shown my best
- Prior experience is irrelevant because prior experience is not a VOTER consideration when deciding a subjective preference between two works of art.
- lack of evidence would prove that he has indeed not participated in a rap battle, hence having no experience
- A refusal to participate on aesthetic and formal grounds is not evidence of prior experience or lack thereof.
- Consider this: If I said Eminem could beat someone who had no sample of rap battles or poems known, you would definitely agree with no indication that this "someone" is a genius. If that someone cannot come up with any sample of rap that has potential, then Eminem holds the grounds as he is an extremely well known rapper with years of experience and countless songs that achieved national recognition.
- If Eminem challenged a stranger to a rap battle and the stranger said "no, thank you" and Eminem went on to declare victory over that stranger in a rap battle that never took place, I would declare Eminem an asshole.
- But by refusing to provide any evidence, he infers that indeed, my suspicions are correct and that he cannot rap as well as me.
- PRO falsely assumes that the only reason one debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle with another debater is lesser talent. In truth, there are many reason a debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle on debate website.
PRO5R2:
- Oromagi's argument doesn't hold up because it doesn't make sense. Imagine it was some other vague skill that I would not truly know his skill within. If I said I was better at piano than Oromagi and showed myself playing some song, then it would only make sense for Oromagi to play an even more difficult song, rather than stating something like "he does not know how well I can play so he cannot say this piano ability is better than mine". Doesn't this seem like the argument that only someone would lose would say? If he could truly play the piano better than me, why wouldn't he show this? It doesn't make sense. By avoiding challenging the topic, Oromagi implies that he would in fact lose the rap battle (since he is unable to display his rap style or evidence that he may be good at rapping).
- Alright, let's move the analogy to debating. If PRO challenged CON to a debate and CON refused that debate would PRO be justified in declaring victory in that debate which never took place? No, of course not. Each debate depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject, command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc. Even talented and experienced debater sometime have to forfeit. One cannot predict the outcome based on prior debate history.
CON1R2:
- PRO cannot predict the future. PRO
has offered no evidence that PRO has any means of reliably predicting
the future and the future is notoriously difficult to predict.
CONSUM2:
- PRO
has made the fatal mistake of offering speculation about some
hypothetical rap battle in the form of a debate as a weak substitute or
potential call-out in lieu of an actual rap competition, which type of contest
CON hardily advocates for but considers this debate specific website a poor
venue. Further, CON argues that non-debate competitions in the
DEBATEART venue lessens the quality of debates overall and reflects
talents irrelevant to our present mission of high quality debate.
CON looks forward to PRO's final argument.
Round 3
The core of oromagi's argument comes down to his vague logic that people might refuse a debate for unknown reasons and that " Each debate depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject, command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc. Even talented and experienced debater sometime have to forfeit. " He falsely moves the goal posts into supporting the idea that someone can claim they won, while they have not even had a debate.
The point I am trying to make is that if Eminem tried to see how strong a rapper someone was and they were unwilling to reveal their information, then you can only presume that the rapper with endless experience, countless songs, and rapping ability has won. This is because *it takes time and experience to get good at rapping*. Oromagi has neither proven that he has artistic genius enough to think of rapping that can rival my own ability. Oromagi is merely shrugging off the topic rather than actually proving his side. This would imply that there is no defeat or victory, and that there is no topic any more.
If Oromagi is proposing a draw for this debate, then I gladly accept, as he seems unwilling to provide any counter-evidence to prove that I can't win a rap battle against him. I have fulfilled my part of the burden of proof in giving plausible evidence why I have enough experience and prose to defeat someone with no experience (as Oromagi has no rap battles anywhere). I counter his "I don't have to show my experience" with my own argument: How can you prove that I *can't* beat you if your experience is unknown?
Case closed. Vote draw (if Oromagi desires) or Pro (if he refuses to give up)
Thx, seldiora
THBT: seldiora (INSTIGATOR of this DEBATE) WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE
DEFINITONS:
Definitions stand
B of P:
PRO does not deny full burden of proof is his despite call for shared burden in description. Fortunetelling is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof. CON's burden ends at refraining from any rap battle with PRO
- CON must definitively establish that PRO would be victorious in any
hypothetical rap competition in spite of the lack of any meaningful
evidence. Since CON's lack of participation in any rap competition on
this website renders PRO's thesis unverifiable, PRO's argument must fail
as unproven
PRO1R3:
- PRO claims that CON admitted to zero rap experience.
- Refuted by CON, PRO dropped this argument
PRO2R3:
- PRO claims that CON must demonstrate lyrical genius in order to overcome a talent like his.
- Refuted by CON, PRO scampered away from this claim.
PRO3R3:
- PRO claims that CON has not presented evidence when in fact CON has argued that CON's refusal to rap in a debate format is not just evidence but the only piece of evidence with any bearing on PRO's thesis. CON's evidence renders PRO's argument unprovable.
- PRO dropped any further claim of "no evidence."
PRO4R3:
CON argued:
- Prior
experience is irrelevant because prior experience is not a VOTER
consideration when deciding a subjective preference between two works of
art.
- The point I am trying to make is that if Eminem tried to see how strong a rapper someone was and they were unwilling to reveal their information, then you can only presume that the rapper with endless experience, countless songs, and rapping ability has won
- PRESUME is defined as "to assume or suggest to be true (without proof); to take for granted, to suppose."
- By acknowledging that PRO's belief lacks proof, PRO concedes this point.
CON argued:
- If
Eminem challenged a stranger to a rap battle and the stranger said "no,
thank you" and Eminem went on to declare victory over that stranger in a
rap battle that never took place, I would declare Eminem an asshole.
- Let's note that PRO is not arguing odds, that seldiora might likely beat oromagi in a rap battle, PRO is asserting as fact a hypothetical future event.
- PRO dropped this argument.
CON argued:
- There
are many reason a debater might refuse to engage in a rap battle on a
debate website. A refusal to participate on aesthetic and formal grounds is not evidence of prior experience or lack thereof.
- PRO never addressed the legitimacy of rap battling in a forum designed for debates.
- PRO called CON's argument "vague logic that people might refuse a debate for unknown reason" which either overlooks or deliberately ignores CON's clearly stated reasons.
- PRO failed to engage PRO's argument on aesthetic grounds.
PRO5R3:
CON argued:
- If PRO challenged CON to a debate
and CON refused that debate would PRO be justified in declaring victory
in that debate which never took place? No, of course not. Each debate
depends on a number of unpredictable variables- command of subject,
command of language, creative flow, the objective and subjective
responses of VOTERs, interpersonal dynamics, etc. Even talented and
experienced debater sometime have to forfeit. One cannot predict the
outcome based on prior debate history.
- CON counters:
- He falsely moves the goal posts into supporting the idea that someone can claim they won, while they have not even had a debate
- Baloney. Analogies aren't moving the goalpost. Analogies offer a comparison between two things for the purpose of clarification or explanation. If we replace the pronouns of this sentence with their relevant proper nouns we get a very fair restatement of PRO's thesis:
- the idea that [seldiora] can claim [seldiora] won, while [seldiora and oromagi] have not even had a [rap battle]
- compares quite nicely with THESIS: seldiora WOULD BEAT oromagi in a RAP BATTLE
- Either PRO has forgotten his own thesis statement or is mischaracterizing CON's restatement of thesis as 'moving the goalposts.'
- PRO dropped CON's analogy in favor of an unreasonable accusation.
CON1R3:
- PRO cannot predict the future. PRO
has offered no evidence that PRO has any means of reliably predicting
the future and the future is notoriously difficult to predict.
- CON dropped this argument entirely.
CONCLUSION:
If Oromagi is proposing a draw for this debate, then I gladly accept, as he seems unwilling to provide any counter-evidence to prove that I can't win a rap battle against him
- PRO just doesn't seem to fathom CON's counter-evidence. PRO can't win the game because CON wont play the game. Talent never enters into it.
- CON counts 7 dropped arguments as well as one concession.
- PRO's request for a draw is rejected as unwarranted. PRO barely engaged CON's arguments
- CON asks VOTERS to find ARGUMENTS in favor of CON
- Thanks to seldiora for instigating
- Thanks to all VOTERS for their kind consideration
SOURCES:
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Intelligence_06 // Mod action: [Not Removed]
>Reason for Decision: Again, Seldiora is arguing as if it is basically a truism that he WILL defeat Oromagi, which is disproven.
1. No matter how good at rapping Seldiora is, he cannot predict the future. There is a chance(even if slim) that he will be banned and/or hit by a mining truck before he can post his first-round verse, no offense. Oromagi perfectly pointed out that it is NOT a truism that his opponent will defeat him because no one can predict the future.
2. Con pointed out that he might not even accept such a rap battle. There is an old saying that says "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take", and the same goes otherwise, if you don't try, you will not lose any. If Oro doesn't even bother to try to do so, then of course he will not lose.
Overall I give the arguments point to Oromagi, the absolute mad legend he is, no offense to Pro.
>Reason for Mod Action: The minimum requirements of the Voting Policy were met.
************************************************************************
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: RationalMadman // Mod action: [Not Removed]
>Reason for Decision: Sources from both sides were pretty weak and this is the only reason they are tied. Con solely used Wikipedia definitions as his showmanship of sourcing but the reason I feel it would be wrong to vote Pro for sourcing is that while Pro uses his sources better (to back up actual evidence supporting his experience as a poet and rapper) it doesn't really help when your actual source is a deviantart profile and a noteflight profile. The 'rapgamenow' again was a not entirely reliable source and was only used to discuss that you improve at rapping over time. So... I leave it tied out of mutual failure to meet the standard.
Conduct was kind of towards Pro because Con baited Pro via the debate's comments into thinking that Con was going to argue he'd never accept a rap battle. In the end, Con ends up admitting he'd never accept a rap battle anyway but says the reason is:
"CON argues that non-debate competitions in the DEBATEART venue lessens the quality of debates overall and reflects talents irrelevant to our present mission of high quality debate."
So... It was very clearly a bait and switch which ended up being irrelevant as the bait and switch reversed itself when Con admits he'd not accept a rap battle but denies it's out of fear (it is out of fear and everyone on this site knows who he fears will accept it).
Now for the arguments.
In this debate only Pro discusses who would win in the rap battle, Con keeps saying that Pro fails to prove that he has concrete probability to win. Con uses Wikipedia to justify that burden of proof is initially on the one making the positive claim and that therefore Pro autoloses if he can't prove Con's incompetence at rap but this isn't how burden of proof works and Pro points this out during the following Rounds.
Con's argument that rap battles reduce the quality of debates on DART is also irrelevant because if you analyse this entire debate's title and description, it doesn't specify that it would need to be Rated on here, nor that the rap battle itself would be held on DART. What it does do is state that the users on DART are the two engaging in it.
While this seems like me inferring things that Pro didn't point out, it is Con's fault for continually trying to make this debate about whether or not rap battles are okay to host and to say he'd never accept it out of a concern for DART's quality of debates. This never held any weight whatsoever by default, since the rap battle is never said to be hosted on DART.
It is further evident that Pro understands this flaw since in his Round 1 he looks to other websites to bring in evidence of his own rapping ability. This displays comprehension that this is not in a 'bubble of DART' but about the users on DART's overall rapping ability.
On top of this, it is confusing why Oromagi keeps pretending that there's 0% proof. When he has dodged nonstop rap battles on the website despite being one of the most active debaters, we have a large sample size to infer he is insecure about his ability to win them. Just because he says he isn't and says that it's his worry about the integrity of DART debates doesn't somehow nullify that Pro has completely explained how the LACK OF EVIDENCE does INDEED support his burden of proof given how active Oromagi has otherwise been. What we can see is that the other person in the rap battle claims himself to have experience in it, meaning that if anything is the default position for burden of proof, it's the one lacking a résumé who has a lot more to prove if he is to conquer the other candidate in the eyes of the judge.
Oromagi's points all revolve around two things:
1) Burden of proof is initially on Pro.
2) Oromagi denies avoiding rap battles out of fear.
Seldiora's points all revolve around two things:
1) Burden of proof is shifted onto Con due to only Pro's candidate having displayed experience in rapping in a competitive environment.
2) Con not only has burden of proof shifted onto them, he has stacked evidence against him given his repeated avoidance of rap battles in spite of his duration of site-use and rate of activity during that duration.
I do not comprehend Con's case, especially since in Round 1 he attacks Pro for claiming that Con is going to avoid a rap battle at any cost only to later in the very same Round admit that he would but scapegoats the reason as DART quality of debates which is irrelevant as the rap battle never was stated to be a rated DART debate.
>Reason for Mod Action: The RFD meets the requirements under the Voting Policy.
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perhaps, but if he was given time to prepare and look at rappers then his poetry experience would help a lot with rhythm, and his insults are very creative
Rap insults is different from classic ELA poetry. Shakespeare cannot win a rap battle with most rappers under normal conditions.
I'm excited to see if Oromagi took any poem classes or not ha, would be crazy talented if he could both rap AND debate
...or I could just accept the debate and state that I will never engage seldiora in a rap battle, making PRO’s thesis impossible to prove
yes
I suggest removing the word "definitely" from the resolution. With it in place, someone could argue that there's always the possibly of you being hit by a bus after the first round, thus making Oro win.
just a guess. He's never had a rap battle so I have the evidence advantage. He only took rhetoric class which infers he doesn't know a lot about verse and rhythm
It means that he can win in all measures. This is a truism, because if Seldiora was just the conveyer and RM and Supadudz actually wrote the lyrics, then he technically won.
What do you mean by 'could'?
How do you know Oromagi can't rap?