Instigator / Con
5
1420
rating
396
debates
43.94%
won
Topic
#2189
Show that scripture against mixed marriage
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 9 points ahead, the winner is...
Intelligence_06
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
14
1737
rating
172
debates
73.26%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes. Please show where there is biblical basis for the condemning of "interracial marriage" in of it self.
For clarity or questions, Please send a message or comment prior to accepting debate.
Round 1
Please give book, chapter and verse that says "interracial" marriage or what the book identifies as marriage between nations in of itself is a sin.
It has to say that it is. It can't be you adding things to it so that a person that reads it as is can now interpret it any other way aside from what is written.
Please don't extrapolate from one passage with a word or sentence(s) and apply its meaning to another.
This will twist and confuse things up. As the scripture says, God is not the author of confusion. So stick with what a single passage is saying. If I request a certain doctrine or teaching out of the Bible and one person has their own meaning or preconceived definition in something, we're already off to a misunderstanding as I would end up in the incorrect place. I or somebody would totally be mixed up.
Now come forth with what you think you might have.
Same debate. I will copy-paste my argument from last time and treat it as a continuation.
Genesis 28:1Then Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and directed him, “You must not take a wife from the Canaanite women.Canaanites are a race and of a nation and Jacob is NOT within that ethnicity. Thus, a marriage between Jacob and a Canaanite woman is an interracial/mixed marriage. Because the phrase "You must not" is used, it became pretty clear that this is an example that discourages an interracial marriage. In fact, any scripture that only illustrates discouragements to an example of interracial marriage would count.I understand what you are thinking. "Does that mean hating anyone is equal of hating his/her/their qualities, ethnicities, etc?" However, hating an LGBTQ activist because he is gay would make you homophobic. Because the Canaanites are tied to their beliefs which are disliked by the God of the Bible, it is pretty safe to say that God discourages the marriage between one of his people(Jacob) and a Canaanites because of their own religion and beliefs, which are tied to their ethnicity. God hates the marriage between these two just by the fact that the two are different and incompatible.Genesis 24:3-4That I may make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell, but will go to my country and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son Isaac.”This is the same as the one above. God discourages marriage between his people and the Canaanites due to their ethnicity. This is one example of a shown scripture against interracial marriage.So, conclusions.
- The Bible discourages marriage between his people and the Canaanites.
- The two are not the same ethnicity, and the marriage within would be interracial and mixed.
- God discourages it due to their ethnicity.
- Because God discourages it, it would be scripture in the bible that shows discouragement towards interracial marriage.
I have used logic to justify my BoP.
One(or four) paragraph(s) in the Deuteronomy book, states:“When the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and mightier than you, and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them, then you must devote them to complete destruction. You shall make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them. You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.[1, Deuteronomy 7:1-4]The bolded phrases and/or sentences shows my point.So far, these claims are undoubtedly true:
- I and my opponent both agree that nations can be used to establish ethnicity.
- The Hittites, the Girgashites, etc. are thus people and ethnicity.
- God told the people(Israelites) to NOT marry with any of the seven other people in their respective nations.
- This quote is IN THE BIBLE.
- Thus, this is a scripture of the bible that is against mixed marriages, because God told the Israelites to NOT intermarry with the other people.
- Because ONE sufficient example shown from PRO is enough for him to win the debate, and this paragraph does it, I rest my case.
---Sources---
Genesis 24 3-4
Genesis 28 1
Deuteronomy 7 1-4
Round 2
Genesis 28:1
So this is saying don't intermarry with them because of the land they're of.
Is that right?
Likewise with Genesis 24 and Deuteronomy 7, is it saying do not intermarry for the sake of keeping descendants of different nations separate?
Please try to respond with a "yes" or "no" first.
My opponent is just asking questions that I have already answered. However, by merit reasons, I shall respond to them.
Genesis 28:1So this is saying don't intermarry with them because of the land they're of.Is that right?
Well yes, but actually no. I will give an excerpt of my R1 argument(In other words, from the last debate of this sort) that specifically answers this question.
Canaanites are a race and of a nation and Jacob is NOT within that ethnicity. Thus, a marriage between Jacob and a Canaanite woman is an interracial/mixed marriage. Because the phrase "You must not" is used, it became pretty clear that this is an example that discourages an interracial marriage. In fact, any scripture that only illustrates discouragements to an example of interracial marriage would count.I understand what you are thinking. "Does that mean hating anyone is equal of hating his/her/their qualities, ethnicities, etc?" However, hating an LGBTQ activist because he is gay would make you homophobic. Because the Canaanites are tied to their beliefs which are disliked by the God of the Bible, it is pretty safe to say that God discourages the marriage between one of his people(Jacob) and a Canaanites because of their own religion and beliefs, which are tied to their ethnicity. God hates the marriage between these two just by the fact that the two are different and incompatible.
TL; DR: This quote is against mixed marriage due to their incompatible races, ethnicities, and religion. It has nothing to do with the lands(Unless within an interpretation that their lands are tied to their beliefs and furtherly ethnicities, which is viable regardless), but it is still against mixed marriage.
Likewise with Genesis 24 and Deuteronomy 7, is it saying do not intermarry for the sake of keeping descendants of different nations separate?
Yes. Said different ethnicities are incompatible, and that is why the bible is against them. This is still a scripture in the bible that is against mixed marriage(because of their ethnicities and races that are generally incompatible), and I have no need to answer everything because I have provided enough evidence that the bible, in fact, contains scriptures that are against mixed marriage, regardless if they are compatible with the contemporary culture or not.
New arguments
But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, 13 then you may be sure that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the Lord your God has given you.
Same logic as above, These ethnicities are being frowned upon by God and are generally considered incompatible. Marrying them is discouraged. There is nothing more to say.
Sources:
Round 3
Rebuttal
Gen 28:1
Is this saying marriage between nations is a sin or is it saying what Isaac told Jacob not to do?
This fails to deliver on what you're to prove.
Also we can't let this go without context. It's easy to pick out something that looks like what you thought it was but read down to verse 8. It's there we begin to understand the situation with the Caananites. They're displeasing to Isaac.
Why are they this to Isaac?
Well now we get to learn the biblical context of the Caananites at this point.
We see that Isaac blessed Jacob in Genesis 28
Going back a ways to get a little history. Genesis 9
Canaan is cursed.
Genesis 10
Caananites spread as a "race".
Leviticus 18
Caananites are not of God.
Now just as in Deuteronomy, it has a very similar situation.
None of these scriptures state marriage between nations is a sin which is what I asked for .
Likewise, they don't state marriage between nations in its very nature is transgression. That means it doesn't say you shall not intermarry with them due to keeping the separation of nations as is. One of the passages gives a reason . One that has nothing to do with mixing the nations alone or in of itself.
As I requested for you to do is to find something that references this subject in and of itself, being solely the basis to condemn for, you have not done.
Rebuttals
Gen 28:1Is this saying marriage between nations is a sin or is it saying what Isaac told Jacob not to do?This fails to deliver on what you're to prove.Also we can't let this go without context. It's easy to pick out something that looks like what you thought it was but read down to verse 8. It's there we begin to understand the situation with the Caananites. They're displeasing to Isaac.Why are they this to Isaac?Well now we get to learn the biblical context of the Caananites at this point.We see that Isaac blessed Jacob in Genesis 28
First off, Interracial marriage is NOT a sin, and I don't have to prove it is a sin to win my BoP. As long as there is at least one quote against interracial marriage(Outdated or not. This quote is written in the old testament, but it is still a quote), I win the day. My opponent, so far, did not sufficiently that it is absolutely NOT against interracial marriage. If I prove any quote to have any degree of basis against interracial marriage, I win.
Yes. They are displeasing to Isaac. I know that. That is the whole point. Since Isaac, Jacob, and their race is generally incompatible with the Canaanites due to their ethnic religion(which would be tied to their ethnicity itself), thus the marriage between the two races is heavily discouraged. Since discouragement is made between, this quote is, more or less, against interracial marriage, specifically because the two's ethnicity is generally incompatible. I have explained this.
This quote satisfies the criteria.
Going back a ways to get a little history. Genesis 9Canaan is cursed.Genesis 10Caananites spread as a "race".
You see, Canaanites is indeed a "Race", even my opponent conceded that it is indeed a race. Since the Israelites(Isaac and Jacob, etc) and the Canaanites, both are races, and the marriage between the two is fundamentally discouraged. The bible has a scripture discouraging such a marriage and it is a scripture against interracial marriage. Yes.
Leviticus 18Caananites are not of God.Now just as in Deuteronomy, it has a very similar situation.None of these scriptures state marriage between nations is a sin which is what I asked for .Likewise, they don't state marriage between nations in its very nature is transgression. That means it doesn't say you shall not intermarry with them due to keeping the separation of nations as is. One of the passages gives a reason . One that has nothing to do with mixing the nations alone or in of itself.As I requested for you to do is to find something that references this subject in and of itself, being solely the basis to condemn for, you have not done.
I don't have to prove that it is a sin to prove that this quote is one discouraging interracial marriage. I don't have to vow to murder someone to dislike someone. Y'all taking this thing too extreme. If any quote has any degree of discouragement towards interracial marriage, whether it is absolute, indirect, implicit, etc. It counts. So far, I have three quotes in the bible that shows discouragement between the Israelites(God's people) and the Canaanites due to the incompatibility of the two's ethnicity, and it is, more or less, against interracial marriage.
I rest my case.
Round 4
Kudos to you for ignoring everything I said to just repeat what you stated previously.
I never stated the Caananites were never a "race". I'm the one who informed you of that. There is absolutely no scripture you've provided that states nations are incompatible just because they are.
Granted that a scripture did state that, you're still refuted as that would be the reason alone and not being from different nations in of itself.
The key terms you're ignoring are" in of itself". You have to continue to be intellectually dishonest to avoid refutation.
You may not understand this but sin means anything against the scripture. If you're just now learning what sin is, it's time to start reading.
In 1 John 3, sin is transgression of the law. That's going against the law or being told what not to do.
Just as in this next scripture you provided , it's scripture stating what is to not be done. If it is done, it is not going with it, it's going against what was said in scripture.
Joshua 23
You're right when you say as the text says about intermarrying with "them" , what will happen .
This of course just harmonizes with everything else. Starting at verse one in the book of Joshua reading all the way down to at least verse 7, there again shows not a forbidding of marriage of a different people alone but as a people not of God.
As you continue to read the chapter, it establishes Israel to hold to God, abide in the law of Moses.
In verse 6 and 12, it reiterates turning away, "turning away to ally" with these nations not of God intermarrying with them.
This once more is not for the sake of intermarriage between nations as it were , alone. This is a constant message through out the old testament.
Then going into the new testament, it's kept consistent in the 2nd book of Corinthians.
WILL YOU PLEASE FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL GIVE SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT INTERMARRYING BETWEEN NATIONS (INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE) IS A SIN(AGAINST SCRIPTURE) ******""IN OF ITSELF******????
In other words, the scripture has to state this is forbidden on the basis of being different nations. That's what "in of itself" is. It means the basis alone not on the basis of something else like different god worshippers.
See what you're struggling with is not comprehending that the basis in the context of scripture you provided is irrelevant to the people being of different nations but just so happen to be of different nations that have different beliefs.
Being of different nations just comes with the territory. The scripture does not say "do not intermarry as you are incompatible". You're saying that. I don't see the words "compatible" or "incompatible" in any of these texts. I don't see where it says "do not intermarry for the sake of just no intermarriage or for the sake of keeping nations separate".
You can continue to take things out of context . I'll just put them right back . You quit moving the scriptural goalpost.
At this point, I will not even make use of new scriptures. I will just defend the three used from before since according to the protocol, I am not allowed to make last-round new arguments, and doing so will lose me conduct and even arguments.
Kudos to you for ignoring everything I said to just repeat what you stated previously.
That's my line. You completely ignored my case too. None of your arguments even challenge my examples as I successfully refute them.
You may not understand this but sin means anything against the scripture. If you're just now learning what sin is, it's time to start reading.In 1 John 3, sin is transgression of the law. That's going against the law or being told what not to do.
I do know what sin is, however that does not make that if only interracial marriage is a sin, it is then against the bible. That is not how it works. Within this logic, everything the president hates should be completely banned from this land. Things are not black-and-white. If a part of the bible mentioned of interracial marriage, then illustrated any degree of discouragement, it is, by any means, by any measure, somewhat against mixed marriage. My opponent has not defined that those scriptures have to be COMPLETELY against interracial marriage.
In other words, the statements "I hate marshmallows" and "All marshmallows in this state, from now on, are to be illegal" convey different ideas. However, both shows discouragement to marshmallows. Then again, it doesn't have to be that the bible is completely against interracial marriage. So far, those quotes show some discouragement to some interracial marriages due to their ethnicities, thus those quotes are somewhat against interracial marriage, which fits the criteria. My opponent has added zero modifiers to the word "against", so it is safe to say that in any form of any basis, a quote that is against mixed marriages does indeed count.
In 1 John 3, sin is transgression of the law. That's going against the law or being told what not to do.Just as in this next scripture you provided , it's scripture stating what is to not be done. If it is done, it is not going with it, it's going against what was said in scripture.
Not quite. If God states, "I do not like apples", then the scripture that conveys that would be against apples, within a non-absolute, but existent(Non-null) basis. God resents a kind of interracial marriage due to their ethnicities being incompatible, so it is safe to say that those quotes are, by any basis, against mixed marriage.
Joshua 23You're right when you say as the text says about intermarrying with "them" , what will happen .This of course just harmonizes with everything else. Starting at verse one in the book of Joshua reading all the way down to at least verse 7, there again shows not a forbidding of marriage of a different people alone but as a people not of God.
Showing a quote not against interracial marriage is not counterproof towards those that do. If Trump said "I hate China", then regrets it, did he still say a statement that can be interpreted to be against China? YES.
WILL YOU PLEASE FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL GIVE SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT INTERMARRYING BETWEEN NATIONS (INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE) IS A SIN(AGAINST SCRIPTURE) ******""IN OF ITSELF******????
I don't have to. Showing a fundamental resentment to at least one form of actual interracial marriage is indeed against mixed marriage, by any basis which still exists and can still count. To prove that Trump hates something I don't have to check the law.
In other words, the scripture has to state this is forbidden on the basis of being different nations. That's what "in of itself" is. It means the basis alone not on the basis of something else like different god worshippers.
It is in of itself. Their ethnic religions are tied to their ethnicity itself, which they are deemed incompatible. Again, ethnic religions are a concept that are basically tied down to their ethnicity, so hating their religion would technically be hating their ethnicity due to that their scope completely overlaps(Both includes and only includes Canaanites). Their ethnic religions are basically their ethnicity.
See what you're struggling with is not comprehending that the basis in the context of scripture you provided is irrelevant to the people being of different nations but just so happen to be of different nations that have different beliefs.Being of different nations just comes with the territory. The scripture does not say "do not intermarry as you are incompatible". You're saying that. I don't see the words "compatible" or "incompatible" in any of these texts. I don't see where it says "do not intermarry for the sake of just no intermarriage or for the sake of keeping nations separate".
It is not black and white. However, that is what it means. If you are interpreting laws literally, then "Cease trade with every nation in Asia" does not cease trade with China just because it doesn't mention it.
Conclusions:
- I have proved, that by any basis(that is non-null), those three quotes are, more or less, against interracial marriage. It is not black and white and it doesn't need to be a sin.
- Those quotes have a partial basis, which, although not completely against mixed marriage, are more or less still against interracial marriage.
- I have successfully fulfilled by BoP. Voters, please vote PRO.
I understand there's no biblical basis but it makes this site no nevermind anyhow. But to us that read , understand biblical context know the truth.
thank you for voting.
There's no explicit biblical basis. There is arguably an implicit one. For example, the Tower of Babel story the people were one people, but then god deliberately scatters humanity across the planet. The end result was people were largely grouped together geographically with similar racial characteristics. Presumably god had his reasons for doing this. If we associate with the other peoples, form multiracial and multicultural societies, then we may be going against god's plan. The ultimate association available would be marriage and breeding.
There is either scripture against it or not. The rest comes down to explaining your understanding of what you read.
A better resolution would be that such passages are mistranslated or otherwise taken out of context. As is, you lose once someone brings up such a scripture.
Also if you're going to post nothing in R1, you should indicate that in the description.
It would be defined by it's scriptural context. Now we can say the connection between all the contexts is a distinct group. That doesn't give us a complete definition. We have to go by how the word is used in a passage.
What is the scriptural definition of race?