Instigator / Pro

seldiora

1417

rating

158

debates

32.59%

won

Topic

#2116

If blue steel was still active, she would almost certainly beat oromagi in a non troll debate

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 6 votes and with 26 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Miscellaneous

Parameters

Publication date: 06.19.2020 12:51AM
Last updated date: 07.11.2020 02:16PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

Bluesteel: the user from debate.org

Pro must prove that bluesteel would win beyond a shadow of a doubt

Round 1

seldiora

06.20.2020 01:41AM

Pro

Bluesteel has said to been one of the best debaters on debate.org. Orogami has been beaten multiple times before, by Ragnar, Bsh1, and even the mostly unknown

soumya_a_thomas. (I will not mention imabench since it was a troll debate). Bluesteel has proven herself countless times that her ability is at least at that level, if not better. She is so incredible that she defeated Thett3 (https://www.debate.org/debates/Rape-Penalty/1/) who defeated bsh1 resoundingly (https://www.debate.org/debates/The-U.S.-ought-to-guarantee-Universal-Healthcare-to-its-citizenry/1/). Bluesteel's losses might look comparable to Oromagi on the surface, but the first one concerned a show and was 9 years ago. The second one was also 9 years ago and was against Danielle, a very skilled debater in her own right. Finally, the third debate was only lost by merely 1 point, which seems very narrow, and could have been a tie.

Oromagi admits he has taken no debate classes and only semantic. It's clear in his debates he mostly picks lower opponents to defeat, and uses an aggressive approach. However, Bluesteel's arguing style doesn't offer as much holes to poke and is harder to attack. Mikal, a prime example of a noob sniper but also excellent debater, managed to get 9,000 elo on Debate.org, but got completely wiped and had to concede the debate. (https://www.debate.org/debates/Bluesteel-v.-Mikal-Resolved-The-US-should-adopt-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-similar-to-Australias./1/) He wasn't able to stand up to the burden of proof and his arguments were ineffective.

Bluesteel's arguments may be a bit mechanical, but she has a lot of experience in debating a wide variety of topics. Knowing Oromagi's piercing nature, she would likely not accept a shaky premise and debate something she knows well about. As Oromagi does not have as much experience with formal debating and famous topics against a practiced debate, it is almost certain that he would get crushed.

RationalMadman

06.22.2020 01:40AM

Con

My opponent is ignoring many factors about this

Instead of listing them all, I am going to write a few sentences to explain a plethora of details and factors missing from Pro's depiction of events and measurement of skill in the debaters.

Firstly, over time debaters have become more skilled, not less and this is because there's more old ones to learn from as well as the fact that on DDO it was true that people tried less hard in general with only a small handful out of the masses who didn't FF etc. Here, in DART, the percentage of tryhards is higher, yet Oromagi thrives with not just 0 losses, but 0 ties as well. Oromagi wasn't a vote moderator like bluesteel was for most of his career (I'll give sources and proof in Round 2 if I get called a liar) so his climb can't even be down to corruption. In fact, the second and third place guys on the leaderboard (Ramshutu and Ragnar) are being outgrinded by an opponent who was never a vote mod like them nor has the social sway that they seem to have.

When we are talking about how to measure skill, we need to remember that this event takes place today, literally now. Bluesteel has not only showed complete diminishing activity and drive to debate over time but her description on the website is sarcastic and troll-like (it says she only cares about being sexy, implying that the owner of the account is probably a guy making fun of women). On top of that, we have to realise that Oromagi has snowballed over time in both his work ethic and ability at debating, while bluesteel undoubtedly has done the opposite.

It is a fact of human nature that work ethic and practise are required to keep you at your peak (regardless of innate IQ or talent at what you do):

Knowledge can be studied, but skills you desire to learn or improve must be practiced. You have to practice - to do - skills in order to learn them. This is because, generally knowledge is something you learn mentally and abstractly, while skills involve some amount of physical coordination, or experiential learning to take place. Skills are connected to the world and allow you to manipulate the world, while knowledge is more intangible. Skills you can learn include: how to speak in public, how to build a house or fix a leaky washer on a faucet, how to make a web page, how to ask out someone on a date, and how to cook a meal. You can learn such skills or others in a class or group, or from a description printed in a book or web page - but they won't help you and you won't learn them unless you practice them.

https://www.mentalhelp.net/self-help/learning-knowledge-vs-skill-practice/

This is from a website dedicated to helping people break addictions and improve their lives.

Round 2

seldiora

06.22.2020 07:11PM

Pro

damn, didn't realize Bluesteel was getting kind of iffy. Maybe I should've chosen RoyLatham instead. I conede.

RationalMadman

06.24.2020 05:18PM

Con

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0VVnCBTl-c

Round 3

seldiora

06.24.2020 09:27PM

Pro

end

RationalMadman

06.26.2020 08:32PM

Con

https://media1.tenor.com/images/fd8b1f580e57feadf80e440d56b59af9/tenor.gif?itemid=16055744

TheUnderdog

07.11.2020 02:16PM

RM said that debators tend to be more skilled as they become on DART more. For me, the opposite is true I think.

Jeff_Goldblum

07.09.2020 06:46PM

-->

@Intelligence_06

After a little sleuthing, I finally found my old account. It's in a lot better shape than I remembered it. (80+ debates. Holy shit!!!)

https://www.debate.org/MyDinosaurHands/

Intelligence_06

07.09.2020 02:46PM

-->

@Jeff_Goldblum

Who are you on DDO though? I had found only like one debate on an account named Jeff Goldblum.

Jeff_Goldblum

07.09.2020 01:50PM

Man, everyone name-dropping these DDO legends takes me back.

Barney

07.07.2020 01:34AM

Neatly I got to have a non-formal debate with RoyLatham over Facebook awhile back. The subject was something like any criticism of Trump is a call for his public execution...

oromagi

06.27.2020 09:40PM

I doubt I could beat RoyLatham on any topic. That dude was incredible

RationalMadman

06.26.2020 11:40PM

-->

@oromagi

No personal attacks were used in this debate.

oromagi

06.26.2020 11:32PM

-->

@RationalMadman

1) that's not what obligated means
2) I don't really approve of personality debates. Either we're elevating or disrespecting fellow debaters, creating friction, factions, and fractions in our little DART community. Can't we find more interesting topics to discuss than ourselves?
3) I think voters should approach debates with as much impartiality as possible and VOTERs who have some interest in the debate should recuse themselves. Obviously, I could not possibly impartially judge a debate in which I am a subject of debate.
4) I'd prefer to see fewer debates of this nature in the future.

RationalMadman

06.26.2020 08:33PM

-->

@oromagi

you are obligated to vote in this debate.

BearMan

07.08.2020 09:01PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession.

Barney

06.27.2020 09:26PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession.

Had it been otherwise, I likely would have refrained from voting due to bias stemming from issues with what I perceived as Bluesteel intentionally abusing their position.

I would be interested to see this debate with RoyLatham as one of the subjects.

David

06.27.2020 03:07AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession

PressF4Respect

06.26.2020 11:48PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession

Crocodile

06.26.2020 11:41PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession

Trent0405

06.26.2020 08:38PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession.