Instigator / Pro
12
1467
rating
3
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#2115
Obama was a great president
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 8 votes and with 40 points ahead, the winner is...
Dr.Franklin
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Twelve hours
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
52
1616
rating
32
debates
62.5%
won
Description
Obama was a great president in comparison to Trump.
Round 1
Barack Obama was a transformative president in most respects. From expanding healthcare to record numbers to saving the American economy Obama was certainly an above average leader.
Framework
If we were to divide the 45 Presidents of the United States into three categories evenly-Good, Mediocre, and Bad- We would have 15 presidents for each category. I will be arguing that Barack Obama was a Mediocre president while zlata will argue that Barack Obama was a top 15 good president.
Mediocre is defined as-of only moderate quality; not very good. Basically an ordinary president
Bad is defined as-of poor quality or a low standard.
Good-of a high quality standard.
next is the round structure, since pro did not structure the debatie, I shall do it myself
R1:Argument
R2:Rebuttal
R3:Defense
R4:Conclusion
Premise 1:Foreign Policy-Bad
Barack Obama’s foreign policy was bad compared to the mediocre and good presidents.
A.His intervention in the Libyan 2011 Revolution and Civil War ended in disaster.Barack Obama himself even admitted it was his worst mistake{1}In 2011, Nato led by Obama toppled the dictator Muammar Gaddafi. While this is fine, the failure was in helping to establish a new democratic Libya. Libya became a hub for militias and government corruption to form all under the noses of Nato. Benghazi was attacked which resulted in 4 dead Americans and many more were evacuated{2}To a good president with a good foreign policy, this should have been a wakeup call of something bad to happen In Libya and since it was Obama who started the war and in the first place lead to the toppling of the Gaddafi regime,he is held responsible. And it got worse, in 2014, a civil war started between The Libyan House of Representatives and Government of National Accord established after failed coups. Now 6 years later, the war is still going on and even ISIS joined to war leading to around 9,000 killed and 20,000 injured with no end in sight.{3}it has gotten so bad Libyans want gaddafi back.{4}Additionally, Obama and the UN supported the Government of National Accord who have committed numerous war crimes throughout the war and is made up of dozens of militias.{5}{6}{7}
B.Syria-Barack Obama's failure in Syria led to the refugee crisis where more than 6 million refugees and a crisis in Europe and additionally is the motive for Turkish intervention in Syria and the invasion of Kurdish Syria leaving thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced with and war crimes with no progress in sight.{8} However, Obama directly funded rebel groups in Syria that are radical jihadists. Moderate rebels in Syria fight side by side with Al-Qaeda in Syria.So even if the rebels Obama funded were moderate, they were still fighting with Al-Qaeda in Syria. According to NPR, 60% of the rebels in Syria are jihadists or Islamic Extremists.{10}One reason why the US funded these groups was because of a myth. In 2013, chemical attacks happened in East Ghouta, Syria. The US and other nations rushed to the conclusion that Assad used the chemical weapons without a proper investigation and later evidence came out that the rebels might have done the attacks in East Ghouta.{9} Obama armed these groups to overthrow Assad for a long time and started in 2012:
“ {A report in 2012} revealed that the shipment in late August 2012 had included 500 sniper rifles, 100 RPG (rocket propelled grenade launchers) along with 300 RPG rounds and 400 howitzers. Each arms shipment encompassed as many as ten shipping containers, it reported, each of which held about 48,000 pounds of cargo. That suggests a total payload of up to 250 tons of weapons per shipment. Even if the CIA had organized only one shipment per month, the arms shipments would have totaled 2,750 tons of arms bound ultimately for Syria from October 2011 through August 2012. More likely it was a multiple of that figure.”{11}
C.Yemen-Barack Obama aided war crimes in Yemen by giving Saudi Arabia over 100 billion dollars of weapons including 180 tanks approved by the Obama Administration for combat in the Yemen Civil War. Of course this was hypocritical as Obama seemed to have a distaste of regional proxies even though this war is a proxy between Saudi Arabia and Iran.{12} Saudi Arabia with billions of dollars in supplies used to commit terrible war crimes. According to the UN, over 2,200 civilians have been killed and multiple hospitals, schools and bridges have been destroyed by the Obama funded,Saudi led coalition in Yemen. However, Barack Obama stayed silent, continuing the coalition in Yemen and not holding Saudi Arabia accountable for there crimes.{13}
The conclusion is clear- from overthrowing a foreign leader and then not supporting the new government leading to a civil war, to funding rebels in Syria that fight alongside terrorists and which faction is made up of 60% Radical Islamic Extremists, and funding a disastrous bombing campaign that teared a nation apart and many more examples-Obama’s Foreign Policy was a complete failure.
Premise 2:Economy-Mediocre
Obama’s economy was mediocre for several reasons.
A.Recession recovery-Obama had the slowest post-war recession recovery. The average GDP of the 7 year recovery growth was barely above 2.1 percent. While, the average recovery growth over 10 recessions in Modern America(post 1949) is well above 4%. In 2016, American wealth finally equaled those of 2007. However, historically in 2016, Obama’s economy should have put the Average American wealth more than 20% higher than what was recorded in 2016. Forbes attributes this slow growth to the increase in taxes as they explain:
“The most harmful were the increase in the capital gains tax from 15 to 20 percent, the increase in top bracket income from 35 to 39.6 percent, and the new tax of 3.8 percent on investment income in the Affordable Care Act (ACA). The massive increase in regulatory burden through the ACA and Dodd-Frank bills are also crushing, but unfortunately are harder to measure.The 13.4 percentage point tax increases mentioned above (plus higher state and local taxes) directly lower expected returns on all investments by the same amount. Our government grabs the fruits of investment, and then is puzzled that businesses do not invest. This causes billions of dollars of investment projects to come off the table. That is precisely what happens.”{14}
B.Other Economic Facts-Food Stamps went up from 34 million Americans needing it to 44 million Americans needing it in 2016.Granted, The recession increased the number a lot, but 8 years after the recession,food stamps were still increased by 10 million more Americans on the program.{15}The National Debt under Obama increased by roughly ten trillion dollars.The labor Force Participation rate under Obama was the worst since 1977. Last, Obama was the first President ever to not hit a year where GDP grew 3% or more.
However, Obama did create jobs and the economy did grow so while it was not a bad economic performance like both Bush the second, Hoover, and Nixon so his economic performance is mediocre
Premise 3:Health Care(ObamaCare)-Bad
Obamacare was a bad failure for the Obama Administration. This is a huge effect of the legacy of Obama as it is still in effect today so arguments post dating the Obama administration are in effect as Obamacare is still active.
A.Negative monetary effects-In May 2017, it was proven by the Department of Health and Human Services that average health insurance premiums doubled between 2013 and 2018. In 2018 under Obamacare,costs rose by 19%. Projected budgetary spending from 2018 to 2027 are projected to be 4.8 trillion dollars for Entitlement Spending and furthermore, The Congressional Budget Office estimates that Obamacare and it’s MedicAid expansion are responsible for 44% of the projected future entitlement spending.{16}
B Uniserance-30 million Americans were uninsured in 2018.but Obama in 2014 stated everyone would be insured leaving it to be a false promise and a failure. What is even a bigger disaster is that in 2012, the congressional budget office concluded that enrollment in the program would increase by 9 million by 2016, instead an incredibly underwhelming increase of 400,000 Americans happened. Promises Made.Promises Broken.{17}
C.Harmful Regulations-Currently you can not buy coverage out of state under Obamacare.If people are allowed to buy in-state coverage, there would be more competition which is good for every healthy market.Hence, there is no national market for coverage and why it is beneficial as Townhall explains:
Licensing rules in virtually every state effectively prevent individual residents from shopping for health plans in any other state. Consequently, there is no national market for health insurance. There are only autonomous state markets, many dominated by near-monopolies that can get away with offering lower quality insurance at ever-higher premiums.As Michael Cannon of the Cato Institute points out, it isn't only insurance companies that are sheltered from the rigors of competition. Insurance regulators are insulated too. State governments, inveigled by special interests, can burden health insurance policies with more and more mandatory benefits, driving up premiums to cover services that many consumers would never willingly choose.In Massachusetts, for instance, health insurance policies must cover at least 49 specified treatments and types of providers, among them midwives, infertility treatments, hair prosthesis, and chiropractors. But what if all you want is a plain-vanilla health plan akin to those sold by insurers in New Hampshire (only 38 state-required health-care mandates) or, better yet, in Michigan (24) or Idaho (13)? Tough luck. That's what it means when interstate commerce in health insurance is blocked.{18}
Round 2
I wasn't expecting you to reply with such a long dissertation. I should have choice different aspects of Obama's presidency as well. I'm going to have to concede.
Forfeited
Round 3
Forfeited
my opponent concedes
thx for the debate opportunity
also next debate try not to make the argument timer 12 hours
Round 4
Arguments don't have to be so long, it's just excessive.
lets review:
- in R2: my opponent concedes the debate
- the voters ought to vote all points over to me(Con)
everything else he said is irrelavant
thx for the debate opportunity
I suggest not listing your sources as "link." The point of a list at the end is for review at a glance, which this method obscures the quality of your selections.
You can set the character limit much lower. For what you're offering right now, a concise 1000 would be about right. It would give enough room for expansion as discussion grows, without fear of being overwhelmed.
100% agree with you. These arguments too often turn into a battle of attrition where unsuspecting newbies get barraged by a wall of semantics and obsession of quantity at all costs. And if you don't respond to a single point, they (not necessarily Franklin, many of the regulars and even i for a while tried to adapt to that status quo) will blast it in bold the next round as a dropped point. Its why i decided to stick with the forum.
On a side note, as an observer i notice it would have been easy to just defend against his 3 premises without tackling every word. 1. Economy great, we were spiraling and he saved it. 2. Healthcare good. Not great, but better than before. And we arent asking if Obama was perfect. I dont recall 3 but whatever. If you prove it was good well enough, you don't have to prove why it isn't bad.
But i know first hand going counterpoint line by line is hard to resist when you read through some of the bullshit in those walls. I don't have that discipline, so like i said, i stick to forums and comments.
Im sure verbal DoS attacks are some sort of fallacy, i might start voting against them citing this reason... but you said the magic word, "conceed." Still considering if i should call it coersion or respect the power of that word.
Lincoln, FDR and JFK will prob be top 5, and Trump will be bottom 5 or so.
By saying that Obama was a good president, you have to prove why he was good overall, not just better than Trump.