Resolved: Marxism-Leninism is an Overall Better Political Philosophy than Fascism (Group Debate)
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 7 votes and with 21 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
This is a group debate. Here are the rules:
One person accepts, each "team" drafts 1 person to be on there team. They can create there argument via PM's or a Google Doc. No trolling, or critiquing the resolution. The debate will begin only when both teams are created. BoP is shared, as PRO is proving communism is better, and CON is proving Facism is better.
Definitions:
Better: "of a more excellent or effective type or quality." NOTE: Economic benefit alone is not enough to prove that one is better.
Marxism Leninism: Marxism–Leninism is a political philosophy that seeks to establish a socialist state to develop further into socialism and eventually communism, a classless social system with common ownership of the means of production and with full social and economic equality of all members of society. Marxist–Leninists espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of orthodox Marxism and Leninism, but they generally support the idea of a vanguard party, a communist party-led state, state-dominance over the economy,[1] internationalism and opposition to capitalism, fascism, imperialism and liberal democracy.
Facism:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.
Fst = Fascist
Sct = Socialist
Cpt = Capitalist
Cmt = Communist
Cmm = Communism
Fsm, Scm and Cpm = ibid pattern
M-Lm = Marxist-Leninism
“a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for an anti-liberal, anti-socialist, violently exclusionary, expansionist nationalist agenda.” [5]
The Manifesto of Race (Italian: Manifesto della razza), sometimes known as the Charter of Race or Racial Manifesto, was a manifesto published on 14 July 1938 which prepared the enactment, in October 1938, of the Racial Laws in the Kingdom of Italy. The antisemitic laws stripped the Jews of Italian citizenship and governmental and professional positions. The manifesto demonstrated the enormous influence Adolf Hitler had over Benito Mussolini since Italy had become allied with Nazi Germany.”[6]
“The goal of Marxism–Leninism is the revolutionary transformation of a capitalist state into a socialist state… which is the lower stage of socio-economic development and progress towards the upper-stage communist society which is stateless and classless. It features public ownership of the means of production, accelerated industrialisation, pro-active development of society's productive forces (research and development) and nationalised natural resources.” [7]
The Burden of Proof is now successfully shifted onto Con, who has to prove that the very philosophy that aims to separate us by things we cannot help (such as race, let alone where we were born) is justified in using the means that were not an iota less brutal than Marxist-Leninism used to achieve an end-goal of equality for all.
Before reading our opening arguments, one has to understand what a political ideology is. It’s a set of rules, ethical ideas, doctrines, and moral laws. It explains how a given society works.
“Political ideologies have two dimensions: (1) goals: how society should be organized; and (2) methods: the most appropriate way to achieve this goal.” [3]
Contention A: The goals of Communism organised society on a more reasonable basis.
By 1938 Mussolini supported racism, as evidenced by his endorsement of the "Manifesto of Race", the seventh point which states that "it is time that Italians proclaim themselves to be openly racist".[8][9]
In September 1920, Benito Mussolini stated:
When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians....— Benito Mussolini, speech held in Pula, 20 September 1920 [9][10][11][11.1
The goal of Marxist–Leninist political economy is the emancipation of men and women from the dehumanisation caused by mechanistic work that is psychologically alienating (without work–life balance) which is performed in exchange for wages that give limited financial-access to the material necessities of life (i.e. food and shelter). That personal and societal emancipation from poverty (material necessity) would maximise individual liberty by enabling men and women to pursue their interests and innate talents (artistic, industrial and intellectual) whilst working by choice, without the economic coercion of poverty.[12][13]
This doesn’t even begin to explore the sexism and homophobia (only hints at the view on the disabled) in Fsm, we await Con’s ability to defend such unjust political philosophies and will rebuke it once this is attempted.
“It (a communist government) can move so effectively because it overrides individual self-interest and subjugates the welfare of the general population to achieve critical social goals.” [1]
M-Lm is a better political philosophy than Fsm because of its less brutal means of achieving similar goals, its ability to mobilize and command resources quickly, and the longevity of practically applied societies. Thank you, and we yield the next argument to CON.
[1] https://www.thebalance.com/communism-characteristics-pros-cons-examples-3305589
[2] https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/china-worlds-biggest-economy-2020?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1
[3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_ideologies#:~:text=In%20social%20studies%2C%20a%20political,for%20a%20certain%20social%20order.
[4] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
[5] https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_Race
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism%E2%80%93Leninism
[8] "The Manifesto of Race" (PDF). 1938. Retrieved 1 March 2019.
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism_and_racism
[10] Sestani, Armando, ed. (10 February 2012). "Il confine orientale: una terra, molti esodi" [The Eastern Border: One Land, Multiple Exoduses]. I profugi istriani, dalmati e fiumani a Lucca [The Istrian, Dalmatian and Rijeka Refugees in Lucca] (PDF) (in Italian). Instituto storico della Resistenca e dell'Età Contemporanea in Provincia di Lucca. pp. 12–13.
[11] Pirjevec, Jože (2008). "The Strategy of the Occupiers" (PDF). Resistance, Suffering, Hope: The Slovene Partisan Movement 1941–1945. p. 27. ISBN 978-961-6681-02-5.
- [11.1]^ The Ciano Diaries 1939–1943: The Complete, Unabridged Diaries of Count Galeazzo Ciano, Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs, 1936–1943 (2000) ISBN 1-931313-74-1
[13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism%E2%80%93Leninism
[14] "Nazi Medical Experimentation". US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved 23 March 2008.
^ [13.1]"Nuremberg - Document Viewer - Table of contents for prosecution document book 8, concerning medical experiments". nuremberg.law.harvard.edu. Retrieved 2017-04-14.
- ^ [13.2]"Medical Experiment". Jewish Virtual Library. Retrieved 23 March 2008.
[16] https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/italy-declares-war-on-germany
MARXISM-LENINISM IS AN OVERALL BETTER POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY THAN FASCISM.
CONTENTIONS
- Benefit of Fascism’s Ultra-nationalism
A central tenet that separates fascism from other political philosophies is that it truly benefits all people within a given society. Marxism-Leninism, meanwhile, is driven by upending the existing system and striving one subset of it: the working class. Marxism-Leninism prides itself on enforced equality and accomplishes this task by bringing those who are not working class down to the same economic strata. That portion of the population is unlikely to accept this, hence Marxism-Leninism advocates for revolution and the instatement of a dictatorship of the proletariat. This is an unavoidable consequence of Marxism-Leninism, yielding a degenerated workers' state where some unaccountable bureaucratic elite forces those who are opposed to the system to contribute to it. Those who restrain the revolution that makes this possible are often killed. Proletarian violence like this was on full display during the Cultural Revolution in China, which resulted in the deaths of as many as two million people.[4] The Stalinist government was also an inevitable result of attempts to implement Marxism-Leninism: “the commitment of Marxists to a political belief at one and the same time both deterministic and utopian was a form of "gnosticism," a heresy of hubris, leading them inexorably to the monumental crimes of Stalinism. In this view, the Marxian vision dictated the Stalinist outcome not because the communist utopia was inevitable but because it was impossible."[5] Stalin “always continued to consider himself a Marxist, and that he was uninterested in other systems of thought”, further demonstrating the connection between Marxism-Leninism and Stalin’s leadership.[6]
Similarly, the lack of a national identity relegates these workers to a system where loyalty to leadership is their only incentive to work hard and be productive. “While there are many benefits from equality, if pushed to an extreme it robs people of an incentive to make an effort. There was little if any reward for hard work or innovation and a lack of punishment for poor or inefficient work. The lack of incentives was a major reason for the poor performance of Eastern Europe economies. Why bother working hard if the reward was the same as doing the bare minimal?”[7] Moreover, many of the methods based in communist philosophy of state-dominated enterprises lead directly to efforts to collectivize industries like farming, resulting in genocidal policies aimed at eliminating an entire social class known as the kulaks. These efforts led directly to mass famines under Stalin, an issue that was entirely absent under the nationalistic efforts of Hitler and Mussolini, which were bolstered by both a strong push for public works and their military enterprises.[8-10]
- Economic Benefit
Similarly, in Italy, the liberal government failed to do its work. Italy was on the verge of collapse before the fascists took control. They swiftly improved the economy and culture. They created youth groups and sports activities. They were beginning to build a national community, which is sacred in fascism. [3] This building of economy and national community is what made Italian fascism so popular.
In both of these examples, it has been proven that when the liberal governments fail, fascism both fixes the problem, and addresses other problems. It is clear that fascism has saved where liberalism has failed.
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REBUTTALS
CONCLUSION
[2]https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Conservative-economic-programs#ref219370
[3]https://aeon.co/ideas/fascism-was-a-right-wing-anti-capitalist-movement
[4]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/11/the-cultural-revolution-50-years-on-all-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-political-convulsion
[5]Daniels, Robert Vincent (2007). The Rise and Fall of Communism in Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0300106497.
[6]Ree, E. Van (March 1997). "Stalin and Marxism: A Research Note". Studies in East European Thought. Springer. 49 (1): 23–33. doi:10.1023/A:1017935822255. JSTOR 20099624.
[7]https://whistlinginthewind.org/2013/04/20/why-did-communism-fail-3-incentives/
[8]https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
[9]https://www.hoover.org/research/stalins-genocides
Read PM if you want rematch
Speaking as a Jew who was working to defend Fascism, I was actually looking forward to this...
Happy the loss is on his account, he put almost Zero effort into this.
I had a nice Round 2 (mainly defence even when it was offence) but Croc didn't get online on time or something. It was only finished last-minute. Whatever.
Less than a day left.
I can see some neg ground if debate theory is used. I don't think I can take this one though.
I can ask him.
We have blocked each other. I can't ping him.
Maybe Alec. He's pretty conservative.
How will he find a Fascist sympathiser to team with? Maybe someone good can play devil's advocate or whatever?
No. It's 2v2. The last 3v3 group debate failed miserably
so it's not 3v3?
So you're on my team now. Bearman still needs to make a desicion
Bet
I want it stated in the description that economics alone isn't how to determine 'better'. Then I will join as pro for marxist-leninism as being better than fascism.
I'll change it
One potential refinement would be picking one form of Communism in question, or opening up the Nazism to general Fascism as a form of government. Either of those, would make it more of an apples to apples comparison.
Lmao ok
I think me growing up in China might be an influence, but Communism could be much better than Nazism if the government weren't corrupt in any way.
That said, nope. I don't wanna debate this because I have 3 other ones that I need a lot of effort at least.
Team debates are something I wish I saw more of. Good luck!