Instigator / Con
AIRhino's avatar
16
AIRhino
1500
rating
5
debates
50.0%
won
Topic
#204

The Colin Kaepernick Movement

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3

After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

AIRhino
Tags
People
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
Cowscreen's avatar
13
Cowscreen
1450
rating
10
debates
30.0%
won
Description

"It makes no sense on a variety of levels and is an insult to the troops that died to defend that flag and that anthem."

-Ben Shapiro
This guy is amazing and I love his work and what he's doing for this country.

Round 1
AIRhino's avatar
AIRhino
Con
#1
Hi there. In this argument, I'd like to reinforce 3 assertions.

1. The Colin Kaepernick movement is founded in a blanket statement.
2. What they're doing is not the right way to deal with this "problem".
(by "problem" I mean that I don't think there is a problem)
3.Racial equality already exists in this country.

Point #1: The Colin Kaepernick movement is founded in a blanket statement.

The blanket statement that the movement is founded in is this: The police are racist.

My argument is simple. Not ALL police are racist. In fact, I think the vast vast majority aren't. That statement is very unfair. That's like saying, "everyone who lives in Green Bay is a cheese head." Which isn't true. There is at least one person in Green Bay who isn't a cheese head, so it is unfair to categorize them as such.
And doing things such as making socks with pigs in police hats on them is just flat-out wrong and I think it is ridiculous that anyone would do that. I think it's fair to say that per capita, there are just as many racist black people as white people. I think it's foolish to say that the only racist race is whites.

Point #2: What they're doing is not the right way to deal with this "problem".

Things like profiling police officers as all being racist and making pig police socks to pigeonhole the police is wrong as well. I think that two wrongs don't make a right and to do that because of so called inequality in a country where no laws exist that discriminate is downright ignorant.

Point #3: Racial equality already exists in this country.

Name to me one law, one legislation that discriminates against blacks or any minority for that matter. In fact, most policies in place by employers and colleges look to give minorities a better chance at being enrolled in a college or hired at a job. Just because a group of people was discriminated in the past does not mean things are unequal now.

I appreciate my opponent's acceptance and the opportunity to debate on this topic. Rebuttals next round. Good luck!

Cowscreen's avatar
Cowscreen
Pro
#2
1. Your first statement is false; the movement was not founded on the blanket statement that police are racist. It was founded as way to shed light on the issue of systematic oppression, but specifically in regard to the criminal justice system;

"Considering that criminal justice reform is at the top of the list of the issues for which players have risked their careers to illuminate"


Who said that ALL police are racists? I don't think that that is an argument that is being made by anyone. Also, racism isn't the best word to describe the problems related to police because racism is a belief that one race is superior to another. I don't think that that is a very common problem today. What's really at issue here is something called unconscious bias. Unconscious bias occurs when negative attributes are unconsciously associated with a specific group of people. African Americans are unconsciously stereotyped as dangerous and less competent by most people, including other black people;


So it's reasonable to assume that most police (regardless of race) have an implicit bias against people of color. This bias causes negative consequences for the blacks that the police interact with on the streets, where decisions between life and death are made in a split second.

Nobody said that only whites can be racist.  Are you triggered by cartoons on socks?

2. Again with the socks, lol. Discrimination occurs regardless of any laws in place.

3. A law does not have to explicitly mention race for it to have its intended negative consequences for people of color, America has a long history of this;


And it continues today;


It is a fact that job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to get a response, even with identical resumes. I see nothing wrong with policies that attempt to correct this problem.
Round 2
AIRhino's avatar
AIRhino
Con
#3
"1. Your first statement is false; the movement was not founded on the blanket statement that police are racist. It was founded as way to shed light on the issue of systematic oppression, but specifically in regard to the criminal justice system;"

The definition of systematic is as follows; "done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.".
According to a fixed plan or system, AKA laws. And you yourself said there are no laws that call out certain races and give them a disadvantage. You conceded that.

"Considering that criminal justice reform is at the top of the list of the issues for which players have risked their careers to illuminate."

Colin Kaepernick waited until he was no longer a starter and was playing badly to be an activist for anything. He sacrificed nothing. Especially since I'm sure he's making millions of dollars partnering with Nike.

"Who said that ALL police are racists? I don't think that that is an argument that is being made by anyone. Also, racism isn't the best word to describe the problems related to police because racism is a belief that one race is superior to another. I don't think that that is a very common problem today. What's really at issue here is something called unconscious bias. Unconscious bias occurs when negative attributes are unconsciously associated with a specific group of people. African Americans are unconsciously stereotyped as dangerous and less competent by most people, including other black people;"

It's implied with those socks. 
So you agree that racism isn't a problem? Thank you I guess.

I don't care about what's in someone's head as much as what they do. There's not a way to scientifically study something such as implicit bias, so we're swinging at ghosts effectively. Also, implicit bias isn't solid enough to hold up in a court room which is why it's never been used in a courtroom as evidence for any case. I don't care about what people think in their head so much as if they act on it because I'm not a mind reader.

To your source, how would they know that???
It still doesn't explain how the test works, it explains what the test does and how it is administered, but no hint to how it works. Granted I did scan the article, but if you want to explain to me exactly how it works, please do that. 

If there are no laws that are racist, what exactly are you fighting?

No, I'm not triggered by cartoons on socks, I disagree with how that group of people is handling the situation. To call cops pigs is obviously extremely disrespectful and it's obvious when you look at how Nike is making those socks, that it is because of the Colin Kaepernick movement. I don't need to explain the correlation there.

"It is a fact that job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to get a response, even with identical resumes. I see nothing wrong with policies that attempt to correct this problem."

"Black sounding names", that's racist. And maybe that has nothing to do with their race, and more to do with the fact that those names are harder to pronounce. The same reason support people from India make up white washed names so that people don't have to say the "indian sounding names". It's not to do with the names, but rather that their names are harder to pronounce, and when dealing with people, you don't want them struggling to say your name.


Cowscreen's avatar
Cowscreen
Pro
#4
Just because a law doesn't explicitly mention a certain race does not mean that it wasn't written to oppress said race of people. This is how institutional racism operates in the United States, there doesn't have to be an overtly expressed intent of oppressing a minority group. It's just a fact that the way institutions are set up in this country results in disproportionately negative conditions for people of color. An example of this would be our education system, where inner city public schools that serve minority populations are drastically underfunded compared to those in white neighborhoods.
 
Colin Kaepernick is no longer in the NFL as a result of his activism, you seem to be discrediting his intentions for no apparent reason. Why would you assume he is motivated only by money? You failed to address my original point; Colin Kaepernick was not motivated by the idea that all police are racists.
 
It's not that hard to understand, laws can be racist without actually mentioning race, this is what Colin Kaepernick is fighting against, laws or practices that end up disproportionately negatively affecting people of color. There are many examples of this, including stop and frisk, and disparities in sentencing for crack vs coke, etc...
 
The fact that some people are born with names that prevent their career growth and hence social mobility is an injustice, whatever bias produced that reality should be addressed with policies like affirmative action.

Round 3
AIRhino's avatar
AIRhino
Con
#5
"Just because a law doesn't explicitly mention a certain race does not mean that it wasn't written to oppress said race of people. This is how institutional racism operates in the United States, there doesn't have to be an overtly expressed intent of oppressing a minority group. It's just a fact that the way institutions are set up in this country results in disproportionately negative conditions for people of color. An example of this would be our education system, where inner city public schools that serve minority populations are drastically underfunded compared to those in white neighborhoods."

Please give me an example of that. You can't just say "institutional racism". You have to tell me what institution/group of people is racist and if there is not reasonable doubt that it is racist, I'll fight it with you. I'm not a racist. I just genuinely don't think that this country's laws/justice system is racist.
What institutions are set up that result in bad conditions for black people? You have to be specific, you can't just say the justice system either, because that's too broad. That's like going into the doctor and saying, "I hurt". And expecting him to give you a detailed solution and diagnosis for your problem.

"First, increasing school spending has rarely led to better outcomes. Second, and more fundamentally, based on data from the U.S. Department of Education itself, the assumed funding disparities between racial and ethnic groups do not exist."
"The Education Trust, a non-profit advocacy group committed to closing the achievement gap, published a 2005 report on funding differences between the highest-minority and lowest-minority school districts in states and large cities.Leaving out the districts in the middle, however, can lead to misleading results."

"Colin Kaepernick is no longer in the NFL as a result of his activism, you seem to be discrediting his intentions for no apparent reason. Why would you assume he is motivated only by money? You failed to address my original point; Colin Kaepernick was not motivated by the idea that all police are racists."

Colin Kaepernick went 1-10 in his last year in the NFL and got taken off the starter position before advocating for anything like that. He got more money from Nike than he would have gotten from the 49ers.

"...Colin Kaepernick was rewarded with a "record" seven-year, $126 million contract in 2014."

"It's not that hard to understand, laws can be racist without actually mentioning race, this is what Colin Kaepernick is fighting against, laws or practices that end up disproportionately negatively affecting people of color. There are many examples of this, including stop and frisk, and disparities in sentencing for crack vs coke, etc..."

But still, no specifics, at all. Stop and frisk is not racist. Provide proof for the crack vs coke thing. Also,"variations in crime cause for variation in sentencing." Also, BAME offenders are less likely to plea guilty, which isn't taken into account.

"The fact that some people are born with names that prevent their career growth and hence social mobility is an injustice, whatever bias produced that reality should be addressed with policies like affirmative action."

Your name is as hard to control as your economic status. You should hire based on merit. I agree with you there. I don't think affirmative action is a justifiable way to solve that problem, but yes I agree that employers shouldn't refrain from hiring someone based on their name. We can agree on that.

Thanks for the civility, I hope this debate is productive for you as it is for me! :D


Cowscreen's avatar
Cowscreen
Pro
#6
Again, the institution I am talking about, and the one Colin Kaepernick is addressing in his movement is the police. The practices of police officers racially profiling black and Latino people is an example of institutional racism. Stop and frisk data shows that only 3% of those stopped are actually convicted of a crime. What this means is that 97% of these people, who are mostly minorities are being stopped and harassed simply because of their race. Because of this discrepancy, black and Latino people are incarcerated at higher rates than white people even though the crimes are committed at the same rate, this results in a disproportionate number of prisoners being black.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/14/stop-and-frisk-new-york-conviction-rate
 
Despite being nearly identical to cocaine, crack is treated as a considerably worse drug when it comes to sentencing for possession. There is currently an 18:1 sentencing disparity, which means crack users (who are mostly black) are being unfairly targeted with these laws.
 
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing
 
So you acknowledge that a problem exists with names and hiring but you don't think we should do anything to address the problem.

Round 4
AIRhino's avatar
AIRhino
Con
#7

"Again, the institution I am talking about, and the one Colin Kaepernick is addressing in his movement is the police. The practices of police officers racially profiling black and Latino people is an example of institutional racism. Stop and frisk data shows that only 3% of those stopped are actually convicted of a crime. What this means is that 97% of these people, who are mostly minorities are being stopped and harassed simply because of their race. Because of this discrepancy, black and Latino people are incarcerated at higher rates than white people even though the crimes are committed at the same rate, this results in a disproportionate number of prisoners being black."

So you can provide percentages for conviction rates, but not what percentage of these frisks are actually minorities? You claim that a majority are minorities but you provide no evidence or statistics to back you up. The conviction rate alone doesn't prove your point.

"Despite being nearly identical to cocaine, crack is treated as a considerably worse drug when it comes to sentencing for possession. There is currently an 18:1 sentencing disparity, which means crack users (who are mostly black) are being unfairly targeted with these laws."

The Fair Sentencing Act removed the 5-year minimum sentence just for general possession of crack. But a big reason for this is because of the trends of violence that came with crack use, especially in urban areas. That came from your own source.

"The disparity in cocaine penalties grew out of the skyrocketing use of crack in the 1980s and the trends in violence that accompanied it, especially in urban areas. Indeed, there appears to be more violence associated with crack offenses. U.S. Sentencing Commission statistics show that 29 percent of all crack cases from October 1, 2008, through September 30,2009, involved a weapon, compared to 16 percent for powder cocaine."

"So you acknowledge that a problem exists with names and hiring but you don't think we should do anything to address the problem."
No, I'm saying that that isn't a race thing. Not relevant.

Again, thanks for your civility. Back to you!


Cowscreen's avatar
Cowscreen
Pro
#8
It's just a fact that African Americans are more likely to be killed by the police than whites, I don't see why Colin Kaepernick is wrong for drawing attention to this. Why is it that white people are not being killed by the police at such high numbers? Do you think it would be better if everyone ignored the inequalities in this country? How else could these disparities be explained other than a bias on the part of the police?

Round 5
AIRhino's avatar
AIRhino
Con
#9

"It's just a fact that African Americans are more likely to be killed by the police than whites, I don't see why Colin Kaepernick is wrong for drawing attention to this. Why is it that white people are not being killed by the police at such high numbers? Do you think it would be better if everyone ignored the inequalities in this country? How else could these disparities be explained other than a bias on the part of the police?"

According to the Washington Post, mind you this is the Washington Post, not a right winged source. Grand total of people shot and killed by the police this year, 798. Grand total of black people shot and killed by the police this year, 158. Grand total of white people shot and killed by the police this year, 318. It is not statistical fact that more blacks are shot and killed by the police. In fact, whites have around double the deaths by police this year.

Thank you for your participation in this debate and your civility, vote con!


Cowscreen's avatar
Cowscreen
Pro
#10
It is still true that African Americans are many times more likely to be murdered by police than white Americans. Just looking at the raw numbers does not provide the most accurate picture of the situation because of the differences in population between blacks and whites. This fact is significant and is reason enough to justify Colin Kaepernick's NFL protest.