Instigator / Pro
10
1677
rating
24
debates
93.75%
won
Topic
#2019
MICRO DEBATE The US should cease the use of enhanced interrogation techniques
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 10 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...
blamonkey
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 2,500
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1488
rating
2
debates
0.0%
won
Description
I'm going to diverge a little from the rues CaptainSceptic outlined in the forums to be a bit more lenient but still restrictive.
Max characters: 2.5k
Max sources: 4 per round
We default to Merriam Webster for definitions
3 days for arguments
Round 1
C1: Inaccurate Info
Despite some alleged success using enhanced interrogation techniques (EIT), the CIA has overstated the usefulness of the program. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in their 2014 study found that of the 39 detainees known to have been subject to EIT, 7 provided no information at all, and those that did provide info often lied to stop the torture (1).
Neuroscience provides a likely explanation for why intel gained from EIT is suspect. Not only does torture flood the brain with stress hormones, making memory retrieval much harder, stress could also cause confabulation, which is when people start believing falsified memories (2). Even if suspected terrorists wanted to tell the truth, many wouldn’t be able to under the harsh conditions.
Inaccurate information jeopardizes national security. If the CIA and other intelligence bureaus are busy investigating fabricated terrorist sects and plots, it means that resources are necessarily diverted from fruitful investigations. The CIA can stop terrorist plots and has done so in the past. Those 20 alleged successes were real, but they were not due to EIT. The CIA can thwart plots, but it takes concerted effort. Don’t let it be squandered.
C2: Innocence
At least 26 people were wrongfully detained at Gitmo according to the 2014 report. 1 was an intellectually challenged person who was detained as leverage to get family members to submit information, 2 were purportedly Al Qaeda operatives solely based on the false testimony of other detainees (1). Many of them remained in confinement for months before being released (1). It is unclear how many of them were tortured, but given sparse record keeping from the CIA, it is possible that many of there were subject to EIT.
The personal rights of the innocent should not be infringed upon nor should the CIA shells out millions to host countries to keep black sites. What’s most disquieting though is the standards for detainment. In many cases, innocuous criteria like wearing a particular brand of watch could label someone as a potential terrorist (3). Arbitrary standards mean that many are subject to EIT who, because they are innocent, may not have info for the CIA.
Despite some alleged success using enhanced interrogation techniques (EIT), the CIA has overstated the usefulness of the program. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in their 2014 study found that of the 39 detainees known to have been subject to EIT, 7 provided no information at all, and those that did provide info often lied to stop the torture (1).
Neuroscience provides a likely explanation for why intel gained from EIT is suspect. Not only does torture flood the brain with stress hormones, making memory retrieval much harder, stress could also cause confabulation, which is when people start believing falsified memories (2). Even if suspected terrorists wanted to tell the truth, many wouldn’t be able to under the harsh conditions.
Inaccurate information jeopardizes national security. If the CIA and other intelligence bureaus are busy investigating fabricated terrorist sects and plots, it means that resources are necessarily diverted from fruitful investigations. The CIA can stop terrorist plots and has done so in the past. Those 20 alleged successes were real, but they were not due to EIT. The CIA can thwart plots, but it takes concerted effort. Don’t let it be squandered.
C2: Innocence
At least 26 people were wrongfully detained at Gitmo according to the 2014 report. 1 was an intellectually challenged person who was detained as leverage to get family members to submit information, 2 were purportedly Al Qaeda operatives solely based on the false testimony of other detainees (1). Many of them remained in confinement for months before being released (1). It is unclear how many of them were tortured, but given sparse record keeping from the CIA, it is possible that many of there were subject to EIT.
The personal rights of the innocent should not be infringed upon nor should the CIA shells out millions to host countries to keep black sites. What’s most disquieting though is the standards for detainment. In many cases, innocuous criteria like wearing a particular brand of watch could label someone as a potential terrorist (3). Arbitrary standards mean that many are subject to EIT who, because they are innocent, may not have info for the CIA.
Sources
Affirmative Case
EIT’s were ended by the CIA in 2007 and made illegal by the Obama administration in 2009.[1] This undermines the premise in pro’s case that this still occurs and con should be awarded the win by default. Pro admits this qualifies as a loss in comment 18 on the debate;
EIT’s were ended by the CIA in 2007 and made illegal by the Obama administration in 2009.[1] This undermines the premise in pro’s case that this still occurs and con should be awarded the win by default. Pro admits this qualifies as a loss in comment 18 on the debate;
“We still do torture people. If we didn't that would have been a short debate”
I extended an offer to just assume this was the case, so we could avoid the debate going off track, but he ignored the request and agreed if EIT’s were abolished he would be the defacto loser here. However despite him being the defacto loser, hopefully we can still discuss the effectiveness of EIT’s , because it is an interesting topic unto itself.
Look, torture works. We know this because almost every day, somewhere in America some poor bastard is tortured for his ATM pin number and gives it up.[2] It’s not just in civilian life these brutal methods work. For example Abu Zubaydah was subjected to EIT on April 19th and August 20th of which led to information that helped capture Ramzi bin al-Shibh and a lot of his associates in the Karachi safe house raids on the anniversary of 9/11. [3 pg. 527]
According to the same study pro cites we have investigators claiming no useful information was obtained from 7 out of 39 detainees, this means it had an 83% success rate, detainees not subjected to EIT usually have a mere 57% success rate of providing useful information(pg 530).
Ethical framework
My opponent has failed to offer and ethical framework for the debate, so I will place that unfortunate burden on myself. Individuals ought to act in their own self interest. We are in the best position to know what is best for ourselves and in a poor position to know how to act for the best interests of others. We also have pro assuming some sort of altruism, the problem with altruism is that it denies the value of an individual, and is therefore destructive to society. In fact the fight against radical Islam is in fact a fight against altruism as these individuals while martyr themselves for the betterment of the terrorist organizations they belong to.
1. https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/2014-press-releases-statements/cia-fact-sheet-ssci-study-on-detention-interrogation-program.html
2. https://www.wbrz.com/news/third-suspect-arrested-in-alleged-torture-robbery-at-baton-rouge-apartment/
3. https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/publications/CRPT-113srpt288.pdf
Round 2
First off, comments don’t count as arguments. Second, torture
is still happening. Al-Baluchi, a man accused of assisting 9/11 perpetrators, is
still subject to sleep deprivation, and excessive noise and vibration (1). This
is classic EIT, whether the government admits it or not. Moreover, torture is
not banned completely. There is a potent loophole that can be exploited. The
guideline Con discusses that allegedly bans EIT starts with this:
"unless the Attorney General with appropriate consultation provides further guidance… (2)”
This loophole presents an opportunity for torture to continue. Therefore, it must be ended.
Oh, and the “agreement” that I would be the de-facto loser never happened. Peruse the comments.
As for the bulk of his case…
He admits that someone, “every day” in the US is tortured for his ATM pin number. He concedes that torture happens.
Pro’s sole example of success is Abu Zubaydah, and he offered information to the FBI and CIA prior to being subject to EIT. It’s unclear how much good info was gained from his torture. However, we do know that he offered the mastermind of the 9/11 hijacking prior to torture. He also fessed up info on a Jose Padilla and Binyam Mohammad, which the CIA said they got from torture, but that was a lie (3 p 47). The Senate Intel Report Notes:
“… a quantitative review of Abu Zubaydah's intelligence reporting indicates that more intelligence reports were disseminated from Abu Zubaydah's first two months of interrogation, before the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. (3 p 208)”
He drops my scientific journal explaining how torture makes it hard for memory recall, worsening intel quality reaped from torture too as well as the arbitrary standards for detention.
"unless the Attorney General with appropriate consultation provides further guidance… (2)”
This loophole presents an opportunity for torture to continue. Therefore, it must be ended.
Oh, and the “agreement” that I would be the de-facto loser never happened. Peruse the comments.
As for the bulk of his case…
He admits that someone, “every day” in the US is tortured for his ATM pin number. He concedes that torture happens.
Pro’s sole example of success is Abu Zubaydah, and he offered information to the FBI and CIA prior to being subject to EIT. It’s unclear how much good info was gained from his torture. However, we do know that he offered the mastermind of the 9/11 hijacking prior to torture. He also fessed up info on a Jose Padilla and Binyam Mohammad, which the CIA said they got from torture, but that was a lie (3 p 47). The Senate Intel Report Notes:
“… a quantitative review of Abu Zubaydah's intelligence reporting indicates that more intelligence reports were disseminated from Abu Zubaydah's first two months of interrogation, before the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. (3 p 208)”
His success rate is wrong. 7/39 detainees provided no
information, not no useful information. Many others lied and offered
false info, which the report notes in its opening pages. It’s also unclear how
many would offer info in the absence of EIT. Even if one or two successful applications
of the EIT occurred, it would be buried underneath the lies, which jeopardizes the
US because wasted resources are used for fruitless investigations.
The ethical framework is also flawed. I never suggested that we operate on altruism. Torture hampers our ability to investigate successfully due to a deluge of wrong information. This makes the US less, not more, safe.
He drops my scientific journal explaining how torture makes it hard for memory recall, worsening intel quality reaped from torture too as well as the arbitrary standards for detention.
Forfeited
Round 3
Extend my arguments.
Note that I won't be able to respond to new arguments.
Forfeited
What counts as enhanced?
Note: The ban was enacted after they chose to end the final round in another forfeiture.
I've watched the report
Sorry, I was 5 minutes away from posting my arguments and I can't seem to access my files. I will post tomorrow. I think they can be recovered. If not atleast is was only like 2500 characters to rewrite
enhance interrogation not torture. For the purposes of this debate anyway
It can refer to a bunch of different torture methods. I'm pretty sure that the CIA codified a list of acceptable EIT methods.
Just to be clear, when you say enhanced torture, you arent referring to waterboarding?
thank you
Oops. Sorry, forgot to include that. The following pages are in order of what I cite from the report:
xi (I forgot to put a (1) by the 20 alleged plots foiled by EIT, sorry about that)
xxi (this page was about the people in detainment who were illegally detained)
bro that is a 788 page document lol, if you can narrow it down a bit that would be great. If not I obviously will take your word on the statement.
the other citations are fine, it is just some of the .gov sites
Here.
https://docdro.id/pIfwfoj
Also, tell me if you can access the other sources. P.S. I checked. We still do torture people. If we didn't that would have been a short debate. ;-)
Yes, I appreciate with you working with me here.
Can I send it as a pdf?
My computer cannot acces citation number one for security purposes. Is there any other way for me to access the document. The United states government apparently frowns on tor users accessing their stuff.
We can assume enhanced interrogation is occurring. I am more interested in proving it is useful and ethical than disproving it occurs .
People at Gitmo, probably some black sites too. I could get more specific, but I'll save it for the debate.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to say "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture. It obviously is torture.
But the use of the word "cease" in the title suggests we're still torturing people. Who are we torturing?
Yeah, I meant comments
Enhanced interrogation techniques performed by the CIA is essentially torture. I'll change it to be more specific.
Who is the US torturing? I thought the 'enhanced interrogation' of terrorists had been put to a stop. As far as I can tell, all that leaves is arguing that the US prison system tortures people via solitary confinement or other 'disciplinarian' methods.
Awesome!
Embed them is easiest for judges think. Nice catch Virtuoso. All the little bugs we need to sort out
you mean the comments?
Sure. You could just place sources in the description too.
Can we embed sources as hyperlinks to save space or do we have to put them in the text?
I forgot to change the point system to choose winner. One sec.
Is the point system what you wanted?
I am very curious about this and how the micro debate works especially for something like torture.
Good Luck to both participants.