Instigator / Pro
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1557
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Topic
#1912
Pele is truly the goat
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The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 5 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
Nevets
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- 5
- Time for argument
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- One month
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- Multiple criterions
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27
1470
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50
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Description
I will give a brief description of what this debate is about.
Pele, according to contemporary sports analysists, is considered the greatest footballer of all time.
However, an argument against this claim is growing legs on the internet.
Maradonites, Messiaeans and Ronaldoists appear to be claiming that Peles credentials are greatly exaggerated, if not complete lies. And that in actual fact, he is not the greatest player of all time.
Now all i ask, is for an honest debate.
Errors that remain unacknowledged after being pointed out, may become constituted as lies.
And i will probably use wikipedia as a foundation to launch a debate.
Though i may use other sources later on, if required
Round 1
"Pele is "truelly" the goat".
Edson Arantes do Nascimento (Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈɛtsõ (w)ɐˈɾɐ̃tʃiz du nɐsiˈmẽtu]; born 23 October 1940), known as Pelé ([peˈlɛ]), is a Brazilian retired professional footballer who played as a forward.
Now i would like to highlight to begin with, some of his greatest accolades
In 1999, he was voted World Player of the Century by the International Federation of Football History & Statistics (IFFHS), and was one of the two joint winners of the FIFA Player of the Century award. That same year, Pelé was elected Athlete of the Century by the International Olympic Committee. According to the IFFHS,
So it is already perfectly clear, that from above, the footballing establishment consider Pele, to be the greatest footballer of all time.
Now i would like to take a look at Pele's goalscoring history, which is considered to be the most prolific of all time.
According to the IFFHS, Pelé is the most successful domestic league goal-scorer in football history scoring 650 goals in 694 League matches, and in total 1281 goals in 1363 games, which included unofficial friendlies and is a Guinness World Record.
Also let us take a look at Pele's wage. He was the "highest paid player in the world".
During his playing days, Pelé was for a period the best-paid athlete in the world.
Now here is something truly amazing. Pele was still at "high school" when he first appeared in the Santos first team.
"He was only 15".
Pelé began playing for Santos at age 15
If this is not remarkable enough, Pele made his debut for the greatest footballing nation in the world, "aged only 16".
and the Brazil national team at 16.
Now Pele to this day, is the only player to be part of a team that won "three" world cups.
And Pele was in this team at "sixteen".
During his international career, he won three FIFA World Cups: 1958, 1962 and 1970, being the only player ever to do so.
"Incredibally" Pele is the all time leading scorer for this remarkable footballing nation.
Pelé is the all-time leading goalscorer for Brazil with 77 goals in 92 games.
But not only is Pele the leading goalscorer for the greatest footballing nation in the world, he is also at club level, Santos all time leading goalscorer.
At club level he is the record goalscorer for Santos,
Now i will highlight other ways Pele has contributed to our philosophy of the game, without even knowing it.
To begin with, the term "beautiful game" comes from Pele.
At club level he is the record goalscorer for Santos, and led them to the 1962 and 1963 Copa Libertadores. Known for connecting the phrase "The Beautiful Game" with football
Pele also became a circus act
Pelé's "electrifying play and penchant for spectacular goals" made him a star around the world, and his teams toured internationally in order to take full advantage of his popularity.
He is not the world ambassador for football, for no reason
Pelé has been a worldwide ambassador for football and has made many acting and commercial ventures.
Now despite the fact Pele had to work so hard for his wage, becoming a circus act, he still managed to keep up almost a goal per game.
Averaging almost a goal per game throughout his career,
Pele also had the rare gift of Ambidexterity
Pelé was adept at striking the ball with either foot
He had a high level of anticipation. And football lovers of the PC game "football manager" will appreciate just how important this attribute is.
in addition to anticipating his opponents' movements on the field.
Now, one of the amazing things about Pele, is he was not even an out and out striker.
Pele was a "playmaker/striker".
While predominantly a striker, he could also drop deep and take on a playmaking role, providing assists with his vision and passing ability,
Pele had all the attributes of an attacking midfielder.
and he would also use his dribbling skills to go past opponents.
In Brazil, Pele is not only considered a "legend", he is considered a national "hero", and not only for the way he effected football.
In Brazil, he is hailed as a national hero for his accomplishments in football and for his outspoken support of policies that improve the social conditions of the poor.
Now, for those that may like to look for signs of "divination" as proof of something meaningful, you will find "mystical occurences" in "abundance" with Pele.
In fact, there is a spooky example on this very thread in the comment section, where it is pointed out to me that i have made a serious grammatical error.
My title original said "Pele is truelly the goat".
Now, right from Birth, Pele was given the wrong name, due to his family making a spelling error on his birth certificate, regards to his own name.
His name should have been Edson. But due to his families spelling error, his name on his birth certificate makes him an "Edison". Not an "Edson", like the rest of his family.
His parents decided to remove the "i" and call him "Edson", but there was a mistake on the birth certificate, leading many documents to show his name as "Edison", not "Edson", as he is called.
This points to Pele being from an extremely poverished family. Not so much illetarate, but seeing literacy as being of lesser importance, when it comes to the key factors that is going to lift them out of this struggle.
From birth, Pele was awarded the nickname "Dico" after a Brazilian footballing great.
He was originally nicknamed "Dico" by his family.
Pele actually received his nickname "Pele" in primary school, when he kept referring to his favourite footballer "Bile" as "Pele" as he appeared to have great difficulty pronouncing it correctly, much to the amusement of his school chums, that labelled him Pele. Completely unaware of what Pele means.
He received the nickname "Pelé" during his school days, when it is claimed he was given it because of his pronunciation of the name of his favorite player, local Vasco da Gama goalkeeper Bilé, which he misspoke but the more he complained the more it stuck.
But the word Pele, is derived from Hebrew פֶּ֫לֶא.
And it means "miracle".
Apart from the assertion that the name is derived from that of Bilé, and that it is Hebrew for "miracle" (פֶּ֫לֶא),
Now at the age of 14, this little miracle wanted to play in an adult footballing competition. But he was considered too young. He was however later accepted.
Pele finished, at age 14, the tournaments top goalscorer.
In addition, indoor football allowed him to play with adults when he was about 14 years old. In one of the tournaments he participated, he was initially considered too young to play, but eventually went on to end up top scorer with fourteen or fifteen goals. "That gave me a lot of confidence", Pelé said, "I knew then not to be afraid of whatever might come"
Now we have already covered that Pele made his debut for Santos at age 15.
What we have not covered is that Pele also scored for Santos during that debut, in a 7-1 victory.
Pelé was highly promoted in the local media as a future superstar. He made his senior team debut on 7 September 1956 at the age of 15 against Corinthians Santo Andre and had an impressive performance in a 7–1 victory, scoring the first goal in his prolific career during the match.
The next season at just 16 years of age, Pele became the leagues highest goalscorer
When the 1957 season started, Pelé was given a starting place in the first team and, at the age of 16, became the top scorer in the league.
Now there are criticisms that Pele did not play in europe, nor sign for a top european team.
But this is untrue.
Pele was wanted by Real Madrid, Juventus, Manchester United, and Pele ended up signing for Inter Milan
After the 1958 and the 1962 World Cup, wealthy European clubs, such as Real Madrid, Juventus and Manchester United,[14] tried to sign him in vain; in 1958 Inter Milan even managed to get him a regular contract,
However, the Inter Milan chairman had to tear the contract up, as Santos supporters began rioting on the streets of Brazil, and so the Brazilian authorities had to try and find a way of bringing Pele back to Brazil, and negotiate a compensation package for him, to ensure he returns to Santos, and never leaves Brazil again.
It was something of a national security issue.
but Angelo Moratti was forced to tear the contract up at the request of Santos' chairman following a revolt by Santos' Brazilian fans. However, in 1961 the government of Brazil under President Jânio Quadros declared Pelé an "official national treasure" to prevent him from being transferred out of the country.
Now, this is truly incredible. In 1958, aged only 17, Pele would smash a record that he would never be able to beat for the rest of his career. And that was scoring 58 goals in one league season.
Pelé won his first major title with Santos in 1958 as the team won the Campeonato Paulista; Pelé would finish the tournament as top scorer with 58 goals, a record that stands today.
Also for anyone that thinks Santos were a micky mouse team, in a micky mouse league, Santos would, in 1962, win what is the equivalent of todays world club cup. They achieved this when they defeated Benfica in the intercontinental cup final.
Pele did not only score a brace in this 5-2 victory. He scored a "hat-trick".
Wearing his number 10 shirt, Pelé produced one of the best performances of his career, scoring a hat-trick in Lisbon as Santos won 5–2.
However, this does not do justice to Pele, as the game was actually a two legged affair.
Santos had already won the first leg 3-2, with Pele hitting a brace.
So the full time result was actually Benfica 4-8 Santos. With Pele scoring an amazing 5 goals in the final, against what was the european cup winners of 1961.
Now Santos would do something even Real Madrid failed to do. And that was to win the tournament for a second time, by defending their trophy.
Real Madrid only won this tournament once, in 1960.
Santos opened with a first leg 4-2 defeat away to AC Milan. Pele amazingly scored 2 goals.
Santos in the second leg, would take the game to a replay, by returning a 4-2 victory, where Pele amazingly did not score. Though he was captain.
In the grand finale, Santos would reclaim the trophy with a hard fought 1-0 victory. Winning 9-8 on aggregate. Again, Pele did not score, though was captain.
In 1968, Santos would also win the inter-continental super cup, which was a world club cup competition, based more along the lines of todays "champions league", with league qualifiers leading to the final knock out stages.
Santos opened the campaign with a 2-0 victory over Racing club, and Pele scored one. (press show at right)
In the second league match, they defeated Penarol 1-0. Pele would not score.
In the 3rd match, Santos would defeat Racing club 3-2, this time away from home. Pele again, would not score
In the final league game, Santos would be defeated away from home, 3-0 by Penarol. But Santos on points would qualify as group winners.
In the final, Santos would defeat Pele's old club, Inter Milan 1-0 and win the competition. Though Pele would not score
Now, was there ever a game between Real Madrid and Santos? The answer is "yes".
It was regarded as a friendly between the greatest two sides in the world at that time.
It was regarded as "Alfrredo Di Stefano" v "Pele".
It was the only confrontation between the best generations of two of the teams listed among the greatest of the 20th century
The game took place in 1959, when Pele was 19 years of age.
The game took place only two weeks after Real Madrid had just won the 1959 european cup.
The game was touted as being a personal dual.
Alfredo Di Stefano v Pele
The Spanish chronicle sold the duel as a confrontation between Alfredo Di Stéfano , who was 32 years old and was considered the greatest player in European football, and young Pelé , 18,
According to a newspaper, the match was considered "the world club championship".
The Journal of Sports the day before the game called Duel "authentic end of the world club championship."
After 10 minutes, Pele scored to make it 1-0 to Santos
After 10 minutes, Pelé hits a kick from outside the area and opens the scoring for the visitors.
Real Madrid hit back with 3 goals in 20 minutes
However, involved in Real's offensive moves, the beach side concedes three goals in 20 minutes from striker Enrique Mateos , who outshines the stars on the field by taking advantage of three precious assists by Alfredo Di Stéfano .
Santos would begin the second half clawing a goal back, after Pele won a penalty, that would be converted by Pepe, to bring the latest score to 3-2 Madrid.
However Real Madrid would soon restore their two goal advantage, by making the score 4-2.
Administering the advantage, the hosts again expand with Ferenc Puskás , diving with goldfish to test the ball inside the area.
Santos react though, and Pele provides an assist for Coutinho to bring the scoreline back to 4-3
In Pelé's move, shirt 10 kicks hard, the goalkeeper flattens and the rebound remains with Coutinho, 16 years just completed, which pushes into the networks.
But Real Madrid once again reconsolidate their two goal advantage with Alfredo Di Stefano proving his 4th assist of the match, to make the full time score 5-3 to Real Madrid.
At 38, Alfredo Di Stéfano , presented his last and fourth assist in the game. He advanced through the middle and took a millimeter pass at Gento's feet , which closed the scoreboard.
Now, after the 5-3 victory, Real Madrid seeked to rub salt in Santos wounds, and they went to the press, and the press hailed Alfredo Di Stefano as proving he is the best player in the world, and not Pele.
For Marca , the confrontation showed that Alfredo Di Stéfano was the best player in the world. The newspaper described "the great work of Alfredo Di Stéfano , an entire orchestra conductor, capable of literally destroying a slow and pretentious rival." The conclusion in Madrid was that Santos had four great strikers ( Pepe , Pelé , Pagão and Coutinho ), but an incredibly slow and weak defense. And Pelé was a great promise, although very individualistic. Unlike Alfredo Di Stéfano . “At Santos, the team plays for Pelé. At Madrid, Alfredo Di Stéfano plays for the team. ” analyzed Agustín Gaínza .
The assassination of Pele continued
Vasco da Gama's coach , Gradim , witnessed the match and left his impressions: "I am convinced that Alfredo Di Stéfano is, in fact, an extraordinary crack. I have not seen any better.
And on and on it went
The ABC newspaper described in its headline: "Real Madrid's easy and fair victory over Santos (5-3) in a match in honor of Munoz". For the newspaper's chronicle, "the speed of European champions was imposed on the slow virtuosity of Brazilians".
But, there is something nobody is taking in to consideration.
Unlike Alfredo Di Stefano, Pele has to work tooth and nail to be the highest paid player in the world.
He has to go on tour, in order to get half the gate receipts to pay his wage.
It was part of his deal when returning to Santos.
Pele has to play 3 or 4 games per week.
When Pele went to play against Real Madrid, this was Pele and Santos players 14th game, in 25 days, in six different countries
The Santos players blamed the game marathon for the defeat. There were 14 games in 25 days in six different countries.
You see, this puts things in a different light.
This is why Pele is considered athlete of the century.
It is why he was never able to break the 58 goals in a season record he smashed in 1958 at age 17.
It is not because he got to age 17, and became a worse player.
No, he was a better player at 25 and 26 than he was at 17.
But because he was now a circus act, he was a man that had to pace himself, and was never able to play at full throttle anymore.
Though you will see glimpses of him playing at full throttle, like when he smashed 5 goals against european cup winners Benfica.
Yet he only scored 1 goal against south american teams in the 1968 inter-continental super cup, in games that Santos were expected to win anyway.
Now it is almost guaranteed, that had Alberto Di Stefano just played 14 games in 25 days in 6 different countries, he would be dead on his feet, and would not even turn up.
You will never see Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionell Messi, or Diego Maradona, agree that they have to go on tour and work for their own wages.
Not in your life-time.
Now despite the negative coverage for Pele after this match, Pele still went home having scored one goal, and assisting two.
And this was a game played on Reals home turf.
It is claimed that Real Madrid refused a return leg at the Marcana. And this claim is supported by the fact that there is no record of a return match being played at the Marcana
Santos players claimed that they attempted a rematch, but the Spanish team always claimed schedule problems.
But in 1965, Santos did officially get their revenge, when an official world club cup event tied Santos and Real Madrid together in the final at the Marcana, and Real Madrid handed Santos the trophy without turning up for the game.
In 1965 , the two teams participated in a quadrangular in Buenos Aires , but Real Madrid gave up playing in the final and gave up the trophy to Santos
I am going to propose, the reason for this, is because Real Madrid knew damn fine, the Santos team that turned up at the Bernabue, were "tired". And Pele the circus clown, was "tired", like a circus tiger.
But they knew, Santos and Pele, will be well rested, in the event of a rematch, and their "claims" would be ripped up.
Their claims got ripped up in 1965, when Real Madrid refused to stand and watch what they knew was going to happen, and decided to just spare themselves, and go awol.
No team has ever done this with Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, nor Maradona however.
And Pele playing all those friendly games, sometimes even against army teams, did not exaggerate Peles goalscoring record. It diminished his record.
Had it not been for all that travelling, Pele's goalscoring record, based on the 58 he scored in one league season alone, in 1958, would have been astonishing.
Now when we look at all the accolades presented to footballers. Whether it be world player of the year. European player of the year.
How about this? Ceasefire!
Yes, that is right. Pele has a ceasefire alongside his name.
In 1967, the two factions involved in the Nigerian Civil War agreed to a 48-hour ceasefire so they could watch Pelé play an exhibition game in Lagos.
In 1975 Pele travelled to a war zone to play for an exhibition match for Lebanese outfit Najmeh
In 1975, one week before the Lebanese Civil War, Pelé played a friendly game for the Lebanese club Nejmeh against a team of Lebanese Premier League stars, scoring two goals which were not included in his official tally. On the day of the game, 40,000 spectators were at the stadium from early morning to watch the match.
He done the same in the dominican republic
Hoping to fuel the same kind of awareness in the Dominican Republic, he and the Cosmos team played in an exhibition match against Haitian team, Violette AC, in the Santo Domingo Olympic Stadium on 3 June 1976, where over 25,000 fans watched him score a winning goal in the last seconds of the match, leading the Cosmos to a 2–1 victory.
For those reasons, Pele was well deserving of his potrayal in films such as "escape to victory", which some people hold against him, as somehow trying to turn him in to something he isn't.
That is all i have space for round 1
Of my previous experiences with Fauxlaw and Oromagi, I had learned to use definitions to manipulate the meaning of the title and make my argument inevitable.
Now, it is your turn to prove that Pele is a goat. So far, to me, he is a human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat
While Pele’s genes are similar to one of a goat, they look vastly different and Pele cannot be considered a goat.
Since you did not define “goat” in the description section, I will exploit it using an alternate definition you see. Next time please define words with multiple meanings.
And just like that, I can turn everything into philosophy and/or literalism. Now it is your chance to prove my definition wrong. Good luck to you!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat
Round 2
Of my previous experiences with Fauxlaw and Oromagi, I had learned to use definitions to manipulate the meaning of the title and make my argument inevitable.Now, it is your turn to prove that Pele is a goat. So far, to me, he is a human.While Pele’s genes are similar to one of a goat, they look vastly different and Pele cannot be considered a goat.Since you did not define “goat” in the description section, I will exploit it using an alternate definition you see. Next time please define words with multiple meanings.And just like that, I can turn everything into philosophy and/or literalism. Now it is your chance to prove my definition wrong. Good luck to you!
Oops.
My opponent failed to read my description
I will give a brief description of what this debate is about.Pele, according to contemporary sports analysists, is considered the greatest footballer of all time.However, an argument against this claim is growing legs on the internet.Maradonites, Messiaeans and Ronaldoists appear to be claiming that Peles credentials are greatly exaggerated, if not complete lies. And that in actual fact, he is not the greatest player of all time.
It is quite clear in my description what this debate is about.
It is my opponents responsibility to read the description.
In my description i clearly state "Pele, according to contemporary sports analysists, is considered the greatest footballer of all time."
And i continue to give enough information to cover myself against anyone not knowing what the "goat" represents.
GOAT is an official abbreviation.
"Greatest of all time".
Anyway,
I understand completely my opponents motives.
You feel it is dishonest when people know damn fine what you mean, but try to find the equivalent of "bureaucratic red tape" to present a troll argument, and then claim that the troll argument, based upon "lateral thinking" is correct, or smart. (Though i do not include oromagi nor fauxlaw in this, as i have no idea about your dealings with other individuals, so cannot comment).
However one would be expected to have knowledge of a subject before taking it on.
So what i have to do, is prove that there is enough documented correspondence on the internet to prove that "the goat" represents the best football player in the world, and "who the goat is", represents this subject.
I will do this, even though it is already in my description what this debate is about.
I will now present my evidence, and will suggest that this error was yours, for rushing in to a debate with an alternative agenda, and not doing your research beforehand.
Goat, is a sporting abbreviation of "greatest of all time".
The debate, regards to Pele, is known as the "goat debate".
Face The Truth: Pele Is Not the GOAT..
The first rule of GOAT club is there can only be one GOAT. For years that title swung wildly between Pele and Diego Maradona, depending on ..
The greatest of all time (G.O.A.T) is the quintessential sports debate. ... Case For: More so than anybody else on this list, Pelé's reputation is
Ronaldo, Messi, Pele: The GOAT debate is unending, and shouldn’t matter
Pele settles Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi GOAT debate
The real GOAT Pele even surprised himself
How can people say Pelé is the GOAT? Goals are frauded, and his skills can't match Messi's or Ronaldo's?
This is all from the first google list you come to when typing in to google "pele is the goat".
There is enough documented evidence, even in newspaper articles, to assume that someone that knows about the subject, will know that Pele being the goat, or not being the goat, is pertaining to a certain debate, known as "the GOAT debate".
It is my opponents responsibility to make sure he knows about a subject before entering it.
In the event there was actually no documented debate, known as "the goat debate", and it was simply terms i made up, then yes, he would have a case.
But there is in fact a relatively well known, and well media documented debate, known as "the GOAT debate" regards to Pele.
And ultimately "it is in my description".
Anyway, i will press on.
My opponent can claim he genuinely thought i was arguing that Pele is literally a goat.
But i do not believe that.
Ok, in 1957, Pele broke another two world records, when he became both the youngest ever player to play for Brazil, as well as score for Brazil
Pelé's first international match was a 2–1 defeat against Argentina on 7 July 1957 at the Maracanã. In that match, he scored his first goal for Brazil aged 16 years and nine months, and he remains the youngest goalscorer for his country.
Now Pele was actually ruled out of the 1958 world cup finals due to injury. But his team mates striked, and threatened to not play if Pele was not included.
Pelé arrived in Sweden sidelined by a knee injury but on his return from the treatment room, his colleagues stood together and insisted upon his selection.
During his first match of that tournament, he broke another world record, becoming the youngest ever player to play in a world cup. Though the record has been broken. He provided an assist for Vava during that game
His first match was against the USSR in the third match of the first round of the 1958 FIFA World Cup, where he gave the assist to Vavá's second goal. He was the youngest player of that tournament, and at the time the youngest ever to play in the World Cup.
In the semi final against France, Pele broke 4 world records.
Becoming the youngest player to play and a world cup semi final.
The youngest player to score in a world cup semi final.
The youngest player to score a brace in a world cup semi final.
As well as the youngest player to score a hat-trick in a world cup semi final
In the final, Pele broke three world record.
Pele became the youngest ever player to play in a world cup final.
The youngest player to score in a world cup final.
And the youngest player to score a brace, in a world cup final
On 29 June 1958, Pelé became the youngest player to play in a World Cup final match at 17 years and 249 days. He scored two goals in that final as Brazil beat Sweden 5–2 in Stockholm, the capital. His first goal where he flicked the ball over a defender before volleying into the corner of the net, was selected as one of the best goals in the history of the World Cup.
Pele after the game, broke another world record, becoming the youngest player to ever receive the silver ball award
The press proclaimed Pelé the greatest revelation of the 1958 World Cup, and he was also retroactively given the Silver Ball as the second best player of the tournament, behind Didi.
Now, i would like to claim, that Pele at aged 17, has now done everything, Diego Maradona, Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, will ever do.
Have those players even made their professional debuts yet?
Now going in to the 1962 world cup, Pele was the best rated player in the world.
When the 1962 World Cup started, Pelé was the best rated player in the world.
Pele began the tournament with a goal and an assist, and then got injured and missed the rest of the tournament
In the first match of the 1962 World Cup in Chile, against Mexico, Pelé assisted the first goal and then scored the second one, after a run past four defenders, to go up 2–0. He injured himself in the next game while attempting a long-range shot against Czechoslovakia. This would keep him out of the rest of the tournament,
This would be held against Pele.
His contenders claim that Pele was being carried by a team that was able to win the world cup without him.
This is supposed to be proof for Pele's over rating.
However, Pele was rated the best player in a world cup winning team. That makes him the best, not worst.
The 1966 world cup final was a disappointment for Pele and Brazil.
Pele did break another world record in this tournament however. He became the first player ever to score in 3 consecutive world cups.
Unfortunately Pele came in for some underhanded tactics, and was kicked off the field, so he was pretty much injured for the rest of the tournament, and missed the next game
During Brazils final game of that world cup, before their premature elimination, an injured Pele would again be kicked off the park, and an incident would happen that would temporarily see Pele retire prematurely from international football.
The referee during that match refused to show a player that had committed deliberate and dangerous play on Pele, the red card, and it is to this day regarded as one of the worst refereeing decisions of all time.
During the game, Portugal defender João Morais fouled Pelé, but was not sent off by referee George McCabe; a decision retrospectively viewed as being among the worst refereeing errors in World Cup history. Pelé had to stay on the field limping for the rest of the game, since substitutes were not allowed at that time. After this game he vowed he would never again play in the World Cup, a decision he would later change.
Pele was back for the 1970 world cup.
Pele would add to his list of world records, becoming the player with most assists in world cup finals
As well as most assists in that particular tournament
Aswell as another two records for most assists in finals, including 1970
Now that is not bad for a player that is also Brazils all time leading goalscorer.
He is also better known for his attacking midfield abilities, of creating assists for others.
Pele would also score 6 goals in 6 games during this tournament
Pelé was called to the national team in early 1969, he refused at first, but then accepted and played in six World Cup qualifying matches, scoring six goals
Pele also won the golden ball for that tournament, and that went nicely with his other world record of becoming the only player to win 3 world cups.
Pelé received the Golden Ball as player of the tournament.
Now Pele was a player that could play anywhere on the field. His territory included all attacking positions, including the wings, and attacking midfield
In his early career, he played in a variety of attacking positions. Although he usually operated inside the penalty area as a main striker or centre forward, his wide range of skills also allowed him to play in a more withdrawn role, as an inside forward or second striker, or out wide. In his later career, he took on more of a deeper playmaking role behind the strikers, often functioning as an attacking midfielder.
Now, i would like to look a little at Pele's main contenders.
Cristiano Ronaldo.
Now whilst Pele had already broken almost every world record out there, Cristiano Ronaldo was nearly 18 by the time he broke in to the Sporting first team and made his premier league debut.
At age 16, Ronaldo was promoted from Sporting's youth team by first-team manager László Bölöni, who was impressed with his dribbling. He subsequently became the first player to play for the club's under-16, under-17 and under-18 teams, the B team, and the first team, all within a single season. A year later, on 7 October 2002, Ronaldo made his debut in the Primeira Liga, against Moreirense, and scored two goals in their 3–0 win
In the next 25 games of that season, mostly as substitute, Ronaldo scored 1 more goal, before leaving for Manchester United
Ronaldo was 18 before he made his international debut for Portugal.
He did not score on his debut
At age 18, Ronaldo made his first senior appearance for Portugal in a 1–0 victory over Kazakhstan on 20 August 2003.
Cristiano Ronaldo has no ceasefires next to his name.
No riots next to his name.
No national treasure next to his name.
No threats of strike from other players next to his name.
Now Messi.
Messi was nearly 17 years and 4 months old before making his Barcelona debut
Messi was 18 years of age before making his Argentine debut
senior manager José Pékerman gave Messi his first call-up for a friendly against Hungary on 17 August 2005. Aged 18,
On the otherhand, Diego Maradona was in fact still 15 when making his professional debut
On 20 October 1976, Maradona made his professional debut for Argentinos Juniors, 10 days before his 16th birthday
Maradona did also make his international debut, aged 16, however aged 17, he was left at home for Argentinas world cup campaign
He made his full international debut at age 16, against Hungary, on 27 February 1977. Maradona was left off the Argentine squad for the 1978 World Cup on home soil by coach César Luis Menotti who felt he was too young at age 17
None of them have ceasefires next to their names.
It is a pity they don't even have a Contender that is willing to argue their corner.
Capitalization is key to the title. Your acronym GOAT, which has the same spelling of the animal that is a mountain sheep, has different capitalizations. GOAT is not goat in reality, just like "Polish polish" means the nail gel that is made in the country between Germany and Ukraine, and reverse the capitalization it doesn't mean that. This is also like "it" is the scary film made in the last few years, while "IT" refers to the science of informational technology. Based on this, GOAT is definitely not the same as "goat". Now in the title, you said "goat" instead of "GOAT", and that means you are trying to debate that Pele is an animal similar to a sheep, and not the greatest footballer of all time.
If your title said "Pele is the GOAT", then you win automatically. However, your capitalization is saying you are not winning. Try next time.
Also, the description may or may not help to contribute to the title, but remember the title is all that we debate. If your title says "Rhine River is a wide river" but your descriptions said Toyota had made cars of all categories, so which one am I debating? the Rhine river one. That is the title and titles are irreplaceable unless you somehow hack into the system, which will get you a ban and a lift that will come in not after a few months. Your title says that you are debating about the goat, not GOAT, and thus your evidence all there scattered are useless.
Round 3
User2006 wrote.....Capitalization is key to the title. Your acronym GOAT, which has the same spelling of the animal that is a mountain sheep, has different capitalizations. GOAT is not goat in reality, just like "Polish polish" means the nail gel that is made in the country between Germany and Ukraine, and reverse the capitalization it doesn't mean that. This is also like "it" is the scary film made in the last few years, while "IT" refers to the science of informational technology. Based on this, GOAT is definitely not the same as "goat". Now in the title, you said "goat" instead of "GOAT", and that means you are trying to debate that Pele is an animal similar to a sheep, and not the greatest footballer of all time.If your title said "Pele is the GOAT", then you win automatically. However, your capitalization is saying you are not winning. Try next time.Also, the description may or may not help to contribute to the title, but remember the title is all that we debate. If your title says "Rhine River is a wide river" but your descriptions said Toyota had made cars of all categories, so which one am I debating? the Rhine river one. That is the title and titles are irreplaceable unless you somehow hack into the system, which will get you a ban and a lift that will come in not after a few months. Your title says that you are debating about the goat, not GOAT, and thus your evidence all there scattered are useless.
Ok, well, define "the goat".
From your first round response, you said
User2006 wrote....Now, it is your turn to prove that Pele is a goat. So far, to me, he is a human.
Where in my title did it say "Pele is "a" goat"?
I said "Pele is truly the goat".
Why does being referred to as "the goat", automatically mean that it is referring to him being non human?
If this were his "nickname" for example, would him having a nickname like this, automatically mean that he is named this because he is not human?
User2006 wrote.. While Pele’s genes are similar to one of a goat, they look vastly different and Pele cannot be considered a goat.
So you are now saying that Pele's genes are similar to a goat?
I very much doubt it.
Do you also believe that the queens genes are similar to a Reptile just because she is sometimes known as Lizzie?
Either way you want to debate, you lose.
https://www.lcgoat.com/ If you can prove this is Pele, then I am impressed. You asked me to define "the goat", this is one definition surely.
"The goat" is just "a goat" with a definite article, so we know which goat we are talking about. For example, if there is only 1 goat in the grasses back there, I will refer to this organism as "the goat". I won't refer Pele to "the goat", however, I will admit Pele can be called "The GOAT". GOAT is not goat.
Moreover, Pele is not the greatest of all time.
Define all time: Human history, earth history or the timeline of the entire universe?
I will give another example: Leonardo Da Vinci.
Football is not the most influential thing ever, and I will argue that science and math, as well as art, are more influential than football itself. As that Da Vinci is one of the best ones at the time to draw mechanical drawings, he would be more influential as he incorporated science, art, and math into his works, and science and math, which has physics, calculate and trains Pele. Da Vinci contributed more to the knowledge of humanity than Pele.
If I titled it, it will be "Pele is the GOAT at the football field".
Round 4
user2006 wrote...."The goat" is just "a goat" with a definite article, so we know which goat we are talking about. For example, if there is only 1 goat in the grasses back there, I will refer to this organism as "the goat". I won't refer Pele to "the goat", however, I will admit Pele can be called "The GOAT". GOAT is not goat.
My opponent is under the impression "Pele" could not be considered "the goat" as opposed to "the GOAT".
What we first must consider, is that "a" is referring to a "thing", such as a goat.
However "the" is referring to "something" and probably not "a" goat.
This is the difference between "Pele is "a" goat". And "Pele is "the" goat".
Now do i have to use capital letters to explain what i am referring to? well let is type this term in to google. "the goat".
Go ahead, copy and paste it in to google and let us see what google throws up.
People also askWhat does it mean to call someone a goat?
Now we clearly see from above, the letters have not been capitalised.
And let us see the answer to this question
greatest of all timeGOAT. A phrase where we have a phrase with four words beginning with G, O, A, T. This stands for greatest of all time. The absolute best, the absolute best at something. ... Unless you think a goat is the greatest animal of all time, then the meaning is related.
Therefore, the terminology "the goat" refers to "greatest of all time" whether capitalized, or not.
Now i have a question of my opponent.
When we accuse someone of "giving the goat". Do we use capital letters? No, we do not.
And, what, is giving the goat?
What is giving the goat?Not many people can claim to be the G.O.A.T., but those who can are the Greatest Of All Time in their field. Most often, the acronym G.O.A.T. praises exceptional athletes but also musicians and other public figures.
Other questions being asked are as folows:
What does the goat emoji mean?Who is the goat of rap?Who is the goat of the NFL?
Now we can also take the urban dictionary and find out what most people, think "the goat" refers too, even when uncapitalised.
So we clearly see, that "the goat" even when uncapitalised, does not refer to a "sheep", but is instead a "title" awarded to a person considered to be "the greatest of all time".
You do not have to refer to him as "the GOAT".
Because the word "goat" is now in his new nickname, but it does not refer to an actual "goat".
user2006 wrote....Moreover, Pele is not the greatest of all time.Define all time: Human history, earth history or the timeline of the entire universe?
The statement you made "Pele is not the greatest of all time" is only a statement that "might" be true.
But you have not put any effort in to establishing how this is true.
And the definition of all time, would be going back to the creation of the universe.
user2006 wrote....I will give another example: Leonardo Da Vinci.Football is not the most influential thing ever, and I will argue that science and math, as well as art, are more influential than football itself. As that Da Vinci is one of the best ones at the time to draw mechanical drawings, he would be more influential as he incorporated science, art, and math into his works, and science and math, which has physics, calculate and trains Pele. Da Vinci contributed more to the knowledge of humanity than Pele.
Why do you think Leonardo Da Vinci being "the goat" in his field of "painting, makes him the only "goat"?
and is widely considered one of the greatest painters of all time (despite perhaps only 15 of his paintings having survived).
And have you had this debate before? Has it been concluded that Leonardo da Vinci is the greatest painter of all time? Please send me a link to this debate.
I see a criticism of Leonardo da Vinci straight away. Only 15 of his paintings survived.
But even if Leonardo da Vinci "is" "the goat" it does not mean you cannot have other goats.
Pele can also be "the goat".
As can an NFL player
What does the goat emoji mean?Who is the goat of rap?Who is the goat of the NFL?
"the goat" represents their status in only their given field of profession.
Pele was not in the same field of profession as Leonardo da Vinci, and therefore Pele's "goat title" does not contradict nor challenge Leonardo da Vincis "goat title".
user2006 wrote...If I titled it, it will be "Pele is the GOAT at the football field".
Then you would be the first, and only person to ever do so.
There is no requirement for the title to be "Pele is the GOAT at the football field".
And who is to say this title is going to be good enough for everyone? Your title still does not explain what GOAT refers too.
Are you automatically assuming everyone knows who Pele is?
Quite simply. Pele is regarded as one of the greatest footballers of all time.
"the goat" is a title given to a person that wins a "GOAT" award.
The title is sufficient for anyone that knows about the subject.
And one would expect a person to know about the subject before entering it.
It appears you do not even have any fondness for football. In which case, this debate was not for you.
Whilst you are "not" a troll, and i like you.....You did troll this debate.
My opponent is under the impression "Pele" could not be considered "the goat" as opposed to "the GOAT".What we first must consider, is that "a" is referring to a "thing", such as a goat.However "the" is referring to "something" and probably not "a" goat.This is the difference between "Pele is "a" goat". And "Pele is "the" goat".
Not exactly. if I had an apple placed on the desk, referring it to 'an apple' or 'the apple' is the same thing and are both correct. "the goat" and "a goat" can refer to the same thing as I stated last round, but "the goat" and "the GOAT" is not the same thing because "goat" is the animal, and "GOAT" is the greatest individual of all time.
Now we clearly see from above, the letters have not been capitalised.And let us see the answer to this question
https://www.lcgoat.com/ Yeah, I told you to prove that this is Pele. Now Pele is no soccer player, he is a bar! How do you prove it? What, you DON'T prove it?
Therefore, the terminology "the goat" refers to "greatest of all time" whether capitalized, or not.Now i have a question of my opponent.When we accuse someone of "giving the goat". Do we use capital letters? No, we do not.And, what, is giving the goat?
Fine, I will stop because I can prove that Pele is not "the goat", or even "The GOAT".
And the definition of all time, would be going back to the creation of the universe.
How do you prove that Pele is the greatest of all time then? How do you know that there is not an alien that does better?
I see a criticism of Leonardo da Vinci straight away. Only 15 of his paintings survived.
That is why I can't prove it. However what I CAN do is cast doubt on your argument, which is that without examining all individuals in all the timelines in all dimensions and alternate universes, no one can prove what the GOAT is. Pele is the GOAT of the field, but literally, Pele is nowhere close to the actual GOAT. I know that Pele is not a goat, but how do you prove that he is the greatest of all time? Why not Lincoln, FDR, Jesus, Napoleon, and even Caesar and Alexander the Great? These people have pushed the world MUCH more than Pele. and Pele just pushed entertainment and sports, nothing else. Pele can be the GOAT of the soccer, but not the actual GOAT. Is Pele the greatest of all time? I think Jesus and Caesar completely outclass Pele as that they pushed the entire world, not just one single field. Caesar and Jesus are much closer to the GOAT than Pele is, but only one field is not enough. there may be smart aliens who can completely outclass these people too.
"the goat" represents their status in only their given field of profession.Pele was not in the same field of profession as Leonardo da Vinci, and therefore Pele's "goat title" does not contradict nor challenge Leonardo da Vincis "goat title".
Well, I don't think the GOAT is only field-limited. Plus even in the soccer field, a robot can do MUCH better than Pele, consider it can score off of Ronaldo and Messi within the first year of machine learning and can completely win every human soccer match. Then Pele's GOAT condition must be in soccer and HUMAN. Then, everybody is his GOAT consider everyone is unique. Then there will be no GOAT at all. How do you judge?
Quite simply. Pele is regarded as one of the greatest footballers of all time."the goat" is a title given to a person that wins a "GOAT" award.
"ONE OF"... I don't know why the "ONE OF" made him and only him the GOAT.
It appears you do not even have any fondness for football. In which case, this debate was not for you.Whilst you are "not" a troll, and i like you.....You did troll this debate.
I see this debate and my first thought is "No! Pele is not a mountain sheep!", and I accepted this. Thanks to you I managed to push this far.
Round 5
user2006 wrote...Not exactly. if I had an apple placed on the desk, referring it to 'an apple' or 'the apple' is the same thing and are both correct. "the goat" and "a goat" can refer to the same thing as I stated last round, but "the goat" and "the GOAT" is not the same thing because "goat" is the animal, and "GOAT" is the greatest individual of all time.
The operative word in your sentence being "can"
user2006 wrote...."the goat" and "a goat" can refer to the same thing
This is an admission that user2006 agrees that can also be pertaining to something else.
user2006 went against contemporary logic and reasoning and came to the conclusion i was referring to a literal goat.
But there was enough information handed to him, to make his conclusion, illogical.
Such as in my description
I will give a brief description of what this debate is about.Pele, according to contemporary sports analysists, is considered the greatest footballer of all time.However, an argument against this claim is growing legs on the internet.Maradonites, Messiaeans and Ronaldoists appear to be claiming that Peles credentials are greatly exaggerated, if not complete lies. And that in actual fact, he is not the greatest player of all time.
user 2006 wrote....Yeah, I told you to prove that this is Pele. Now Pele is no soccer player, he is a bar! How do you prove it? What, you DON'T prove it?
Now my opponent claims i could have logically been claiming Pele is a PUB.
In which case, has my opponent, by proving the existence of a PUB named Pele, disproven my title is wrong?
If my argument was indeed, Pele is truly the PUB, then my opponent proved i was correct.
user2006 wrote....Fine, I will stop because I can prove that Pele is not "the goat", or even "The GOAT".
But you did not prove this.
You avoided the subject
user2006 wrote....How do you prove that Pele is the greatest of all time then? How do you know that there is not an alien that does better?
I cannot prove Pele is the greatest of all time.
But what i can do is "suggest" he is the greatest of all time, by having a better argument than yourself.
You however did not present an argument.
And your alien theory is ridiculous.
Before an alien could be compared to Pele, there would first have to be a competitive match played between Pele and Aliens.
This has never arisen.
user2006 wrote....That is why I can't prove it. However what I CAN do is cast doubt on your argument, which is that without examining all individuals in all the timelines in all dimensions and alternate universes, no one can prove what the GOAT is. Pele is the GOAT of the field, but literally, Pele is nowhere close to the actual GOAT. I know that Pele is not a goat, but how do you prove that he is the greatest of all time? Why not Lincoln, FDR, Jesus, Napoleon, and even Caesar and Alexander the Great? These people have pushed the world MUCH more than Pele. and Pele just pushed entertainment and sports, nothing else. Pele can be the GOAT of the soccer, but not the actual GOAT. Is Pele the greatest of all time? I think Jesus and Caesar completely outclass Pele as that they pushed the entire world, not just one single field. Caesar and Jesus are much closer to the GOAT than Pele is, but only one field is not enough. there may be smart aliens who can completely outclass these people too.
What you do, is you provide an argument. And your opponent either tries to show how your argument is not sufficient, either by showing where you have made factual errors, or showing that their chosen individual scored more goals, won more caps, played at a higher level.
There are quite simply endless ways in which one might attempt to show their chosen player is better than the other.
user2006....Well, I don't think the GOAT is only field-limited. Plus even in the soccer field, a robot can do MUCH better than Pele, consider it can score off of Ronaldo and Messi within the first year of machine learning and can completely win every human soccer match. Then Pele's GOAT condition must be in soccer and HUMAN. Then, everybody is his GOAT consider everyone is unique. Then there will be no GOAT at all. How do you judge?
So has there ever been a Robot that has played in a professional football match? Or are you theorising what might happen in the event this ever "did" happen?
Notice my debate is in the "sports section" and not the "sci-fi section".
user2006...."ONE OF"... I don't know why the "ONE OF" made him and only him the GOAT.
But your job is to show how he is "not" "the greatest of all time".
You have not given a logical fact based argument against this.
But i have proven that "my" version of "Pele the greatest of all time" meets your version of "greatest of all time", my version wins. As your version is a "robot". And has never played in a professional game of football.
user2006 wrote....I see this debate and my first thought is "No! Pele is not a mountain sheep!", and I accepted this. Thanks to you I managed to push this far.
No-one ever said Pele was "a" mountain sheep.
Summary and conclusion
My opponent from start to finish trolled this debate, and never had any intention of debating this subject from the beginning.
And i do not believe my opponent has proven what he claims.
I do not believe my opponent genuinely thought that i was referring to a mountain sheep.
I revert back to his original statement in round 1.
user2006 wrote...Of my previous experiences with Fauxlaw and Oromagi, I had learned to use definitions to manipulate the meaning of the title and make my argument inevitable.
This is almost an admission, that my opponent knew he was trying to be clever.
He has issues with other users on the forum and he came on to my debate and chose to be smart.
However, i also defeated his alternative definitions.
Such as his PUB definition
user2006 wrote....Yeah, I told you to prove that this is Pele. Now Pele is no soccer player, he is a bar! How do you prove it? What, you DON'T prove it?
Nevets replied...Now my opponent claims i could have logically been claiming Pele is a PUB.In which case, has my opponent, by proving the existence of a PUB named Pele, disproven my title is wrong?If my argument was indeed, Pele is truly the PUB, then my opponent proved i was correct.
Since my opponent has failed to define the term "GOAT" at the start of the debate, he led his guard down by letting a definition for a mountain sheep in. This made me exploit the title by defining as anything that is not supporting the idea in which Pele is the greatest of all time, and I had proven that Pele is not a goat.
But you did not prove this.You avoided the subject
Literally speaking, Pele is not the greatest of all time. I'd rather say Jesus, FDR and Caesar are. Saying that the sun is a big lamp is wrong literally and correct figuratively, and Pele is the greatest of all time is only figurative, not literally, consider any machine learning can defeat Pele if the technology has been made, which is completely possible. I said this but Caesar and Jesus and etc had contributed MUCH MORE to the world such as shaping the world's societal quarters and the bound territories along with their history. Pele's job is just entertainment and that is it. Football contributes less to the world compared to politics and economics. So literally speaking, Pele is far from the greatest of all time.
But there was enough information handed to him, to make his conclusion, illogical.Such as in my description
No matter how we are arguing the title whatsoever. If the title is Moonlight Sonata but the description is Toyota TS050 Hybrid, Which one do you trust? The title. When the description agrees with the title, we trust both. If the description does not match the title, trust the title. If the debate says "Hindenburg should be rebuilt" yet the descriptions states how Germany rose to power, I'd rather stick to former because it is the title and the description does not support the title.
The operative word in your sentence being "can"
While you are proving that the word "goat" can mean a mountain sheep only some of your time, you are saying also that the word "goat" can mean the greatest of all time only some of the time too. Edge of duality. None of our definitions are wrong and we can do both. You might say that the description matches your definition, but the fact the distinctive abbreviation of the greatest of all time is GOAT instead of Goat means mine is also correct. I did mention it, yes, but I can do it again. If you have a topic called "Best polish in the world" then provide history for the European country in the Warsaw Pact, even if the description talks about Poland, any cultured being who understand English would still think that it refers to the nail polish for the sake of capitalization.
So to speak, if anyone says I am moving the goalpost, my opponent had not constructed a goalpost whatsoever consider the definition is too controversial.
No-one ever said Pele was "a" mountain sheep.
Aaaaaaaaand..... That's my side! You need to know how definite articles work because an apple and the apple refers to the same thing when there is only 1.
However, i also defeated his alternative definitions.Such as his PUB definition
I did not ever say that Pele is a Pub consider that Pub is either THE GOAT or Pele. No dictionary ever includes the alternative definition Pele in the term Goat.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFJ2aa4UYAAVJqT.jpg
As for the best soccer player
What About Bend It Like Beckham ?
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeees, a debate about the beautiful game at long last.
Yeha.
Will be posting my argument soon.
Very true
You likely mean "truly" not "truelly."