Instigator / Pro
Barney's avatar
25
Barney
1815
rating
53
debates
100.0%
won
Topic
#1560

Physicians are Scientists

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
9
Better sources
8
6
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
4
4

After 4 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Barney
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Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
5,000
Voting period
One month
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Multiple criterions
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Open
Contender / Con
Nemiroff's avatar
23
Nemiroff
1554
rating
15
debates
73.33%
won
Description

This is being initiated at the request of con, due to a continued disagreement about definitions within the English language (https://www.debateart.com/debates/1555/comment_links/21621).

Pro is arguing that physicians (AKA Medical Doctors) are scientists.
Con is arguing that physicians are not scientists.

Definitions:
Obviously this is a debate about language, so we'll be arguing which definitions are best within the debate.

Round 1
Barney's avatar
Barney
Pro
#1
I shall prove my case on two fronts, which shall be given their own sections below
  1. My Opinion
  2. Common English

But first, we should quickly address that as both debaters live in the USA, this debate is centered on physicians within that country (as opposed to say African Witch Doctors). A medical doctor in the USA is a highly skilled and highly paid position, requiring 11-14 years education beyond most citizens [1]. I doubt there will be any disagreement that physicians are experts of a natural science.


I. My Opinion:
What is a Scientist?
In general I would say a scientist is any practitioner of the scientific method, which can be simplified to [2]:
  1. Make an observation
  2. Ask a question
  3. Form a hypothesis
  4. Conduct an experiment
  5. Reject or Accept hypothesis

What Type of Doctor is Best?
My opponent believes “the last thing you want a doctor to do is start guessing and experimenting on his patients” [3], which is to say the last thing he would want is a doctor who makes use of the scientific method. I disagree. I want a doctor who is capable of continuous diagnosis. For example, after they assume a broken bone is set back into place, I want them to run the experiment of an x-ray to test said hypothesis, rather than risk it healing wrong. Someone with a history of worsening headaches, should probably receive a CT scan, rather than just be given more and more painkillers (or worse, being given treatment for brain tumors or otherwise based on symptoms without an experiment to confirm that hypothesis).

A doctor who does not conduct experiments, would quickly find themselves in malpractice lawsuits for the various injuries they would inflict by giving treatments for the wrong ailments. It is necessary for any practicing modern physician to be a scientist. Were they not, there would be no such thing as an annual physical exam (a key time doctors do many experiments) [4].


II. Common English:
Doctors are Scientists by Definition:
Making an appeal to the authority of the dictionaries, scientists are…
  • Merriam-Webster says “a person learned in science and especially natural science” [5].
  • Cambridge says “an expert in science” or “an expert who studies or works in one of the sciences” [6].
  • Dictionary.com says “an expert in science, especially one of the physical or natural sciences” [7].
Each are slightly different, but the general theme of what a scientist is within the English language (to which this debate is using) should be clear. Considering physicians by those standards: they practice the natural science of medicine, a field to which they very well learned in to the point of being experts. They are by definition scientists.


Sources:
  1. https://study.com/requirements_to_become_a_doctor.html
  2. http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=scientific_method
  3. https://www.debateart.com/debates/1555/comment_links/21621
  4. https://www.medicinenet.com/physical_exam_why_does_your_doctor_do_that/article.htm
  5. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scientist
  6. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/scientist
  7. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/scientist
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Con
#2
Re: Opinion definition

I agree with this definition of scientist, however I do not believe verifying proper bone setting is a hypothesis, nor is the x-ray an experiment. These are known procedures. If the doctor was evaluating a brand new untested procedure, or posing a hypothesis that injecting something new will lead to self repair and then testing it, then he is a scientist, but the vast majority of doctors do not do this. 

A particularly negative example of doctor's playing scientist is the Tuskegee experiments. A certain group was selected to study the natural progression of syphilis. The participants thought they were getting normal medical treatment, but even after a known antibiotic cure was developed, the study went on. These doctors violated their oath to prioritize the patient, they acted as scientists to preserved the data at expense of their patients.


Re: Common English

I cannot dispute that those are the common definitions, however common definitions may not be the best way to judge professions. Shortly I will demonstrate what academic institutions and the professionals themselves see as accurate definitions and equivalencies.

What I will say about dictionaries is that they do not decide language as scientists judge facts. Dictionaries simply record the common usage of a word, which is proven by the constantly changing definitions of words to match popular usage at the dismay of intellectuals. Example: literally now officially can mean not literally.

2: in effect : virtually —used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible
will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice— Norman Cousins  [1]
Thus dictionaries are more record keepers then authorities.


My Arguments

1. Definitons:

Scientist: A scientist is someone who systematically gathers and uses research and evidence, making a hypothesis and testing it, to gain and share understanding and knowledge. [2]

Physician: A person who is trained in the art of healing… The term generally refers to a person who has earned a Doctor of Medicine (MD), Doctor of Osteopathy (DO), or Doctor of Naturopathy (ND) degree and who is accepted as a practitioner of medicine under the laws of the state, province, and/or nation in which he or she practices. [3]


2. PhD vs MD

Doctors and scientists follow different degree paths, one stressing known medical knowledge, while the other stresses methodology to discover new knowledge.


3. Can a doctor be a scientist?

Yes of course. However it is not the common situation, it isn't automatically true, and they will have many ethical dilemmas to deal with (prioritize the health of subjects vs prioritize extracting unadultered data.) 


4. What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?

Physician-scientists are physicians (MDs or DOs with or without additional degrees) who devote regular components of their professional effort seeking new knowledge about health, disease, or delivery of patient care through research. While all physicians receive training in medical science, physician-scientists are those who are trained to conduct independent scientific investigation in the laboratory, clinic, or other setting.

Historically, physicians were pioneers in medical science, and often relying on only informal scientific training coupled to their intellectual insight and curiosity. Today, however, most physician-scientists complete formal, usually intensive scientific training in addition to their medical education. [4]

Physician-scientists have been a driving force in biomedical research and have made major contributions to medical breakthroughs. However, in the past 40 years, the proportion of U.S. doctors engaged in research has dwindled from a peak of 4.7 percent of the overall physician workforce in the 1980s to about 1.5 percent today. [5]
If at its peak the number of physician scientists was under 5%, then I don't see how physicians would i be scientists. 


5. What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?

Table 1: 

TABLE 1. ATTRIBUTES THAT DISTINGUISH PHYSICIANS AND SCIENTISTS
Attributes............................................................…….Physicians..........................……Scientists
Approach to knowledge...............................................Application...................................Discovery
Decision making...............................................................Rapid......................................Reserved
Adherence to accepted standards of practice............Almost always...............…......…..Almost never
Expert opinion.............................................................Respect authority.........................Question authority
Response to mistakes........................................Risk management review.........….........Basis for potential breakthroughs     [6]
Sources for CON R1 in Comment #5.
Round 2
Barney's avatar
Barney
Pro
#3
I. My Opinion:
What is a Scientist?
My opponent and I agree in general terms to scientists utilizing the scientific method:
  1. Make an observation
  2. Ask a question
  3. Form a hypothesis
  4. Conduct an experiment
  5. Reject or Accept hypothesis

What Type of Doctor is Best?
We disagree on what counts as utilizing the scientific method. Specify due to the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1]...

“I do not believe verifying proper bone setting is a hypothesis”
He fallaciously argues that something does not count as a hypothesis, if the guess is educated instead of random. He offers no reason this would be the case, merely the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1]. This strange standard would prevent scientists from being educated in their respective fields and still able to be considered scientists.

Hypotheses are defined as…
  • Merriam-Webster says “a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences” or “the antecedent clause of a conditional statement” [2].
  • Cambridge says “an idea or explanation for something that is based on known facts but has not yet been proven” [3].
  • Dictionary.com says “a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.” [4].
Nothing supports his views that having a suspected outcome would mean it’s not a hypothesis.

“nor is the x-ray an experiment”
He insists experiments don’t count as experiments, unless they are wholly new, which is again the merely the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1].

Experiments are defined as…
  • Merriam-Webster says “TEST, TRIAL” or “an operation or procedure carried out under controlled conditions in order to discover an unknown effect or law, to test or establish a hypothesis, or to illustrate a known law” [5].
  • Cambridge says specifically to science “a test done in order to learn something or to discover whether something works or is true” [6].
  • Dictionary.com says “a test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle, supposition, etc.” or “to try or test, especially in order to discover or prove something” [7].
So con’s insistence that testing things with known true/false outcomes are not experiments, is patently wrong.


II. Common English:
Doctors are Scientists by Definition:
Con has tentatively dropped that Physicians are within English defined as Scientists.

“common definitions may not be the best way to judge professions”
Were this debate about if physicians are instead called scientists as a profession and job title, con could have a valid point here; instead he chooses to repeat the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1]. He may as well claim Nuclear Physicists are not scientists, solely due to possessing the wrong job title.

“dictionaries are more record keepers then authorities”
This is no way refutes the validity of the combined records of language I have shown.


III. Con’s Arguments:
“Definitions”
Save for con’s No True Scotsman fallacy against hypotheses and experiments (see above), his own definition supports that physicians are scientists. The definition he offered specifically calls for “gathers and uses research and evidence” as opposed to doing wholly random things with no suspected outcome to count as a scientist as he has argued them.

“PhD vs MD”
He again offers the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1], insisting that what makes a scientist has nothing to do with even his own definition, but rather is about having a certain school degree.

“Can a doctor be a scientist?”
A mere assertion against the evidence [8].

“What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?”
He again offers the No True Scotsman Fallacy [1], insisting that what makes a scientist has nothing to do with even his own definition, but rather is about having a certain job title.

“What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?”
According to con, someone is only a scientist if they “almost never” commit “Adherence to accepted standards of practice.” This would mean if a scientist is regularly using the accepted standard of the scientific method (things like conducting experiments to prove a hypothesis), is not a true scientist according to con. With this con has reduced his case down to an internally contradicting non-sequitur [9].


Sources:
  1. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
  2. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypothesis
  3. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/hypothesis
  4. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypothesis?s=t
  5. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experiment
  6. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/experiment
  7. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/experiment?s=t
  8. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
  9. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Con
#4
I. Your Opinion:
 
My opponent claims that verifying a known process one has done hundreds of times constitutes a hypothesis and experiment. Thus a food cart vendor verifying that the wheel brakes he set are properly engaged is a scientist. In fact, according to my opponent, all people can be considered scientists, engineers, accountants, doctors, or professionals of any kind!

My opponent makes repeated claims of a no true Scotsman fallacy when he is in fact stretching the definition of no true scotsman to absurdity. This is not a case of self proclaimed Scotsman considering other self proclaimed Scotsman to be not true Scotsman. The doctors, scientists, and their respective representative bodies all repeatedly deny a similarity between the two professions, as I repeatedly showed in the previous round.
This is not a “no true scotsman,” this is a “reduction to absurdity.”
 
II. Common English:

Doctors are Scientists by Definition:
Con has tentatively dropped that Physicians are within English defined as Scientists.

My opponent has swapped his usage of the term “Common English” for simply “English.” That change is not without consequence.
He relies on dictionary definitions that represent common usage and are subject to contradictions and subjective change, such as when literally suddenly came to mean the opposite of itself
Definition of literally
1 : in a literal sense or manner: such as ...
2 : in effect : virtually —used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is *not literally* true or possible
 
If dictionaries are not authorities, then they do not determine definitions, they simply record common usage by the people. A profession is defined by its scope, and what it actually does. That definition comes from the professionals themselves, or some representative body such as the American Medical Association. All professional scientists, doctors, and their respective organizations agree on the many differences between the fields, as highlighted by my many citations in the previous round.
 
III. Con’s Arguments:
Definitions
Scientist: A scientist is someone who systematically gathers and uses research and evidence, making a hypothesis and testing it, to gain and share understanding and knowledge.

My definition of scientist did not have any instances of the word “OR” in it, yet my opponent takes a segment of it and ignores the rest.
“gathers and uses research and evidence”
That is dishonest. My actual definition does not support his claim at all. I would hope many different professions would gather and use research and evidence. 

PhD vs MD
My opponent relies on Common English definitions as the absolute authority (despite dictionaries simply recording common usage) for his claims, yet rejects any and all decisions from actually relevant authorities and institutions.
 
Can a doctor be a scientist?
An accountant can be a scientist if he studies and achieves the proper credentials or independently conducts his research. However anyone can make that personal choice. That doesn’t mean all accountants are scientists.  The fact that only a small number of doctors pursue novel research (less then 5% at its peak, as cited in the previous round), demonstrates that the VAST MAJORITY of doctors do not pursue novel research, and as such are not scientists. 
 
What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?
I made several arguments based not off of job title, but job description. The job description of a researcher is very different from that of a doctor’s normal medical practice of applying evidence backed practices that lead to best outcomes, vs the testing of novel ideas.
 
What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?
My opponent is committing an all or nothing fallacy here.  The role of a scientist is to question accepted principles and uncover unknown truths. They do not reject the whole foundation of science, but they do have to question a certain aspect of what is accepted and seek to uncover a greater truth.
Doctors on the other hand are trained to accept all practices backed by evidence, and do not go rogue formulating their own theories within their medical practice. I want a scientist to question accepted assumptions. I want a doctor to stick to what has proven effective in the past, until new research by scientists uncovers a better alternative.

I would also want scientists to question authority and seek new truths, I want a doctor to stick to what works and not try experimental treatments
The differences are clear and vast.

Conclusion:
My opponent relies on flawed common definitions while rejecting any and all professional authorities on the matter.
According to his vague definition, all people going about their everyday lives are scientists if they do any verification of their decisions.
The goal of seeking novel truths is incompatible with the goal of best *consistent* outcomes.

Round 3
Barney's avatar
Barney
Pro
#5
I. My Opinion:
“according to my opponent, all people can be considered scientists…”
A blatant Straw-person fallacy [1]. I have not said everyone is a scientist as my opponent infers; rather I have called a group of “experts of a natural science,” who underwent “11-14 years education beyond most citizens” scientists (this also contradicts con's conclusion).

No True Scotsman
On each I have shown why his exclusions were invalid. To deny physicians are scientists, he has claimed such things as a test isn’t a true test if there’s suspected outcomes [2], then refused to offer any reason for such when this was called out; instead he declared it absurdity to bring attention to what he chose to do.

“respective representative bodies all repeatedly deny … as I repeatedly showed”
If not lying to the point of complete disregard for reality [3], which section in your above argument contains the quotes from every representative body for medical doctors in the US? Doing a word search, I don’t see anything from the American Medical Association (as just one prominent example), nor the apparently repeated denials from any other (this isn’t even getting into how small the sampling from groups like the Science Council are, when it is claimed the prior round included disavowment of physicians from every representative body of scientists).

“I do not believe verifying proper bone setting is a hypothesis”
My opponent has chosen to drop both that his “strange standard would prevent scientists from being educated in their respective fields and still able to be considered scientists,” and that “nothing supports his views that a suspected outcome would mean it’s not a hypothesis.” Extend.

“nor is the x-ray an experiment”
He has chosen to drop his “insistence that testing things with known true/false outcomes are not experiments, is patently wrong.” Also extend.


II. Common English:
Doctors are Scientists by Definition
As a reminder from the description of this debate: This is to settle a “disagreement about definitions within the English language.” To which con is basically asking for English itself to be dismissed when it disagrees with him.

“Literally” & “dictionaries are more record keepers then authorities”
Con has a disagreement with a single definition from a single dictionary, which is committing the cherry-picking fallacy [4]. In no way does the single flaw suggest that even the one dictionary should be thrown out, let alone all three I have used in this debate. As I stated last round: “this is no way refutes the validity of the combined records of language I have shown.”

“common definitions may not be the best way to judge professions”
Con has chosen to drop the rebuttals against this, including that his standard excludes Nuclear Physicists from being scientists. Extend.


III. Con’s Arguments
“Definitions”
As already shown, con’s own definition in no way rejects physicians. Rather than pointing to any part of it which does, he calls it dishonest that I already showed most of it back in my first contention and did not repeat myself. He further declares that me proving his own source did not favor him, was somehow a rejection of it.

“A scientist is someone who systematically gathers and uses research and evidence, making a hypothesis and testing it, to gain and share understanding and knowledge.”
Physicians job is all about systematically gathering and using research and evidence to help patients. They routinely make hypotheses and then test them (as seen with even determining a bone is broken, rather than putting a cast on for months at a whim without verification). And yes, of course they share the knowledge and understanding with their patients and co-workers (that they even record illness rates should be a clue).

“PhD vs MD”
As stated, con is “insisting that what makes a scientist has nothing to do with even his own definition, but rather is about having a certain school degree”; while also insisting they're not a scientist if certified via “accepted standards of practice.” Extend.

“Can a doctor be a scientist?”
Not even con’s definition of scientists includes his newly moved goalpost about novel research [5].

“What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?”
It has repeatedly been shown that physicians are scientists, even by con’s own preferred definition. That not all have the job title Doctor-Scientist is irrelevant, as is if research is their primary goal.

“What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?”
Con drops that he has demanded that scientists reject their own “accepted standards of practice” in order to be considered scientists. He is now changing his mind again saying he wants them to live up to the professional standards and credentials outlined by various groups.


Sources:
  1. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man
  2. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
  3. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bullshit
  4. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cherry_picking
  5. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Con
#6
1. Your Opinion: 

"rather I have called a group of “experts of a natural science,” who underwent “11-14 years education beyond most citizens” scientists (this also contradicts con's conclusion)."

The agreed upon definition in of scientist in R1 was :

What is a Scientist?
In general I would say a scientist is any practitioner of the scientific method, which can be simplified to [2]:
  1. Make an observation
  2. Ask a question
  3. Form a hypothesis
  4. Conduct an experiment
  5. Reject or Accept hypothesis
You proposed that a Doctor fits this definition due to his use of "hypothesis" and "experiment" to verify proper bone placement. Similarly many of us form assumptions and do various tests to confirm consequential actions, like the food cart salesman verifying his breaks. 


No True Scotsman
“respective representative bodies all repeatedly deny … as I repeatedly showed”

I've invalidated the no true Scotsman by demonstrating that the doctors and scientists themselves deny any similarity.
I've shown numerous claims for many such organizations, you're only sources are common dictionaries. Can you show any representative body of either profession who support your claim?


“I do not believe verifying proper bone setting is a hypothesis
strange standard would prevent scientists from being educated in their respective fields and still able to be considered scientists,” and that “nothing supports his views that a suspected outcome would mean it’s not a hypothesis. Extend"

And you have not responded to how a food cart vendor seeking to verify he put the breaks on properly isn't "forming a hypothesis and then testing it with an experiment." As per our agreed upon definition in R1, if that is a hypothesis, and an experiment, he is also a scientist. The programmer that gives his program a test run? scientist! The person checking his account to make sure the check went through? Scientist!
Extend.



2. Common English

My opponent drops the charge that he changed from "Common English" to just "English"
He also drops criticisms of dictionaries simply recording "Common" usage, such as "Literally" now meaning "Exaggeration"
Extend all



3. My arguments 

“Definitions”

"Physicians job is all about systematically gathering and using research and evidence to help patients (vs to GAIN knowledge). They routinely make Diagnosis (not hypotheses) and then test them (as seen with even determining a bone is broken, rather than putting a cast on for months at a whim without verification (The pros/cons of which is already known knowledge)). And yes, of course they share the knowledge (But don't GAIN knowledge) and understanding with their patients and co-workers (that they even record illness rates should be a clue)." (The doctor treating you isn't the one compiling and studying that data.)
(modified quote, additions in Bold)

Can you cite a single doctor who call's his Diagnosis a Hypothesis.
Doctors gain knowledge through study, and following new research.
Scientists are the ones who do NEW RESEARCH

“PhD vs MD”

My opponent refuses to acknowledge experts who train the very people we are discussing.



Not even con’s definition of scientists includes his newly moved goalpost about novel research

Novel research is in our original agreed upon in R1. Its called the hypothesis. a word you misunderstand.

"Scientific hypothesis, an idea that proposes a tentative explanation about a phenomenon or a narrow set of phenomena observed in the natural world."



That not all have the job title Doctor-Scientist is irrelevant, as is if research is their primary goal.

Are you suggesting research is not a scientist's primary (or possibly only goal)?
If you are then you will have to concede soon.



Con drops that he has demanded that scientists reject their own “accepted standards of practice”

Pro continues his all or nothing fallacy in the face of common sense.
What use is a scientist who accepts all accepted theories and doesn't question or reject anything? What is his job exactly?



Conclusion:

My opponent continues to reject any and all authorities on this matter. He refuses to explain how everyday people are not also forming "hypothesis" and testing them with "experiments" according to his usage of those terms (in the X-ray / bone setting example) and are thus not scientists according to the agreed upon definition in R1.

Scientists ask Questions and make Hypothesis (aka a possible explanation for an unknown phenomena), in order to Gain new and deeper knowledge
Doctors use this knowledge in order to provide optimal treatment to sick people. They do not, in 95%+ cases, seek new knowledge through their primary work.
If, as a doctor should, do seek knowledge. it is newly discovered (past tense) knowledge that was discovered by scientists... as that is their job description.

Thank you.
Round 4
Barney's avatar
Barney
Pro
#7
I. My Opinion:
“according to my opponent, all people can be considered scientists”
If anyone else is also a scientist, has no bearing on whether physicians are scientists.

“The agreed upon definition in of scientist” [sic]
And my opponent accidentally concedes much by moving the goalpost to just the opening from my first contention (which I used as a building block, expanded in the second contention to show they must additionally be experts of science; which was verified in my preamble and wholly unchallenged); one which he previously criticized for being too open ended, but now insists it’s what we “agreed upon.”

No True Scotsman
Saying a true scotsman is recognized as a true scotsman by other true scotsman, is what con’s argument against having used the No True Scotsman fallacy boils down to. This is his core argument, and I have already shown why it is blatantly fallacious.

“respective representative bodies all repeatedly deny … as I repeatedly showed”
Pro has dropped that he was “lying to the point of complete disregard for reality [1].” Extend.

And no, I will not be validating the No True Scotsman with a related appeal to popularity. Rather I have based my argument on what physicians actually do, as opposed to any cherry picked opinions from their social circle.

“I do not believe verifying proper bone setting is a hypothesis” & “nor is the x-ray an experiment”
My opponent has acknowledged my criticisms, and chosen not to challenge them. Thus he has dropped that physicians are full practitioners of the scientific method, asking questions, forming hypotheses, running experiments, and based on the results rejecting or accepting said hypotheses. His argument thus becomes that scientists cannot be educated, which is an assertion without merit.

To his case about other types of scientists, it has no bearing on whether physicians are scientists.


II. Common English:
Doctors are Scientists by Definition
Con literally extended my criticisms of his case, including that he is “basically asking for English itself to be dismissed when it disagrees with him.”

“Literally” and “dictionaries are more record keepers then authorities”
I haven’t a clue why con imagines this was dropped. Extend.

“common definitions may not be the best way to judge professions”
Extend.


III. Con’s Arguments
“Definitions”
Con believes that the process of the scientific method does not result in gaining knowledge. As shown with the example of not having your leg plastered for months on a guess, they conduct an experiment which gains them knowledge of if the bone is actually broken, and if so what type of fracture. Said knowledge informs the treatment and related other experiments to be done. While it is true they work in teams, any one physician will conduct several experiments on a regular basis; as previously seen when I referenced “annual physical exam (a key time doctors do many experiments) [2],” which has now gone effectively unchallenged for three rounds.

And again “con’s own definition in no way rejects physicians.”

“Can you cite a single doctor who call's his Diagnosis a Hypothesis.” [sic]?
Wholly irrelevant. The Dinglehopper remains a fork, no matter what anyone calls it [3].

“PhD vs MD”
Con offers no challenge to my previous criticisms and arguments here, so extend.

“Can a doctor be a scientist?”
I encourage any voter to verify if “novel research” was used and agreed upon in R1 as con claims, or if he’s lying to cover up when caught trying to move the goalposts [4].

As for scientific hypothesis, his definition offers no disagreement with mine for hypothesis from R2, nor has he shown any way physicians are not undertaking the process of the scientific method to include coming up with hypotheses and testing them. As seen with the potentially broken leg example, that the leg is likely broken is tentative explanation about the pain and other phenomena observed in the natural world. Nothing about his own definition calls for the wheel to be reinvented every time a hypothesis is to be tested, nor is his term novel research even present on the link he used for it.

“What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?”
The job title remains irrelevant. And nothing about any definition implies what the motivations must be (I see another No True Scotsman coming…). Extend.

“What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?”
Yet another dropped argument. Extend.


Conclusion:
Con’s conclusion repeated already well refuted parts of his case.

As for my conclusion, I'll just repeat content from my R1:
“A doctor who does not conduct experiments, would quickly find themselves in malpractice lawsuits for the various injuries they would inflict by giving treatments for the wrong ailments. It is necessary for any practicing modern physician to be a scientist.”
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Con
#8
Starting with Pro’s Conclusion
 
A doctor who does not conduct experiments, would quickly find themselves in malpractice lawsuits for the various injuries they would inflict by giving treatments for the wrong ailments. It is necessary for any practicing modern physician to be a scientist.
A doctor who conducts experiments would find himself without a job. Giving unverified treatments, especially ones that fail, will not only land him in court, it will cost him his license. The doctor is (hopefully) not trying to find out how the disease works, or even new ways to cure it. The doctor should be carrying out the best cure that is known to work, to get you better with minimal consequences.
 
1 Your Opinion:

If anyone else is also a scientist, has no bearing.
My opponent does not challenge that his definition qualifies everyone as a scientist, not as a hobby, but in everyday life situations for all. This makes the concept of scientist obsolete and is absurd. Thus his definition must be overly vague or incomplete.


Agreed upon definition
I agreed upon your definition in the first sentence of my R1. If you have elaborated upon that definition, I disagreed with it and referencing back to the agreed upon definition.
What you are doing is twisting vague definitions into a meaninglessness that defines near everyone.

"The word scientist is a general term, used to describe someone who researches and examines various aspects of the physical world in order to attain a better understanding of how things work and function. There are many specializations of 'scientist', and depending on which field of study one chooses to follow, the work can vary greatly. Each scientist, however, follows 'the scientific method', which is a strict set of rules that ensure all new discoveries are factual and not just speculation."

 
No True Scotsman.
No true scotsman involves denying the validity of people who identify as you but disagree with you. These two groups do not identify as each other.

Pro has dropped that he was “lying to the point of complete disregard for reality"
Despite the drama act, you have not shown a single scientist, doctor, or representative body that agrees with

Bone Setting and X-rays
A “surgery” is not an “experiment”. They are not trying to gain new information, they are trying to fix the problem right the first.
Taking an X-ray is no different then a programmer running a diagnostic tool. Its far more complex, but it is analogous. It is not research, the patient is not a subject, and the treatment is not an experiment.

annual physical exam (a key time doctors do many experiments)
No mention of experiment anywhere in the article. The doctor searches your body for known signs of known illnesses in order to prescribe the optimal treatment for the ailments. There is no experimentation. These are diagnostic workups with known outcomes. Experiments were conducted in the development of these tools.
 
2 Common English
 
“What would constitute a Doctor-Scientist?”
The job title may be irrelevant, the job description is not. If you wanted to see the motivation it was laid out back in R1:
 
Physician-scientists are physicians (MDs or DOs with or without additional degrees) who devote regular components of their professional effort seeking new knowledge about health, disease, or delivery of patient care through research. While all physicians receive training in medical science, physician-scientists are those who are trained to conduct independent scientific investigation in the laboratory, clinic, or other setting.
3 My Arguments

that the leg is likely broken is tentative explanation about the pain and other phenomena observed in the natural world.
So what’s the science? What knowledge is being gained? He is trying to fix a malady using known knowledge. This is not science.
 
“What are the key differences between Physicians and Scientists?”
My opponent unfortunately is building a strawman.
I was clear that scientists seek to correct or expand on known knowledge, their job description is to question accepted knowledge in search of deeper understanding.
Doctors do not question accepted methods in search of better tools, at least not on unsuspecting patients. They would have to form a study with volunteers or subjects.

4 Conclusion.

My opponent has tried to use vague definitions to twist the term scientist into meaninglessness. Anyone who second guesses actions and then verifies them is now a scientist. Whether that question is about the workings of the world, or whether their car battery still has a charge.

I ask that you not fall for semantics and look at what the professions do, their different motivations and priorities. I ask that you listen to the professionals and their representative organizations who highlight the many differences between the two. Scientists seek to uncover how our world works. Doctors use the findings from those answers to treat patients, using tried and true methods with known, minimal consequences.

Tyvm Pro/Voters