Instigator / Pro
crossed's avatar
4
crossed
1377
rating
62
debates
25.81%
won
Topic
#1447

Metal Healing Properties

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
0

After 1 vote and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Discipulus_Didicit
Tags
Religion
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
6
Discipulus_Didicit
1596
rating
9
debates
88.89%
won
Description

"Pro has to prove it is more likely that God is the reason these positive effects exist.

Con has to prove these positive effects are more likely to be natural."

Burden of proof split 50/50

Round 1
crossed's avatar
crossed
Pro
#1
This Debate is to explain instances like these came to be. Gold and silver biological effects on humans. I am making the claim that this is basically magic and such only God could have done this. And con is saying this could be formed naturally

For those that are skeptical, consider that researchers at the University of Southampton have proven that wearing a specific type of silver ring can help alleviate some symptoms of arthritis in the hands.
Here is the study they are referring to

Here are some health benefits of silver if you wear it.

Sliver helps the body heal faster. Helps fighting colds if you wear it.
As a metal, silver has significant health benefits that have been used across cultures for centuries. Silver has a proven track record as a powerful antimicrobial agent fighting infections and aiding in cold and flu prevention, wound healing, and more.

Silver regulates our body's hormones if worn
Silver also helps with internal heat regulation and circulation. Many have reported improvements in energy levels and balance in moods after wearing silver, as its natural properties may offset outside electrical disturbances, improve circulation and overall body temperature balance, and help maintain cleanliness and immunity.

Silver staves off infections which is why we use it to make medical equipment out of it
Silver has a long history in antibiotics and sterilization, with many women and men wearing silver jewelry to stave off infection, cold/flu symptoms, and any other virus, bacteria, etc. This health benefit is one of the reasons why so many manufacturers choose to make medical devices and tools out of silver.


As you can see these benefits are to great to have just happen out of nowhere.In order to create rocks that can heal you from sickness. The creator would have to have knowledge of the inner workings of the body. In order for silver to gain the ability to regulate hormones in the body. The creator would have to have knowledge on how the body function And then design the silver to regulate the hormones.
Lets say someone Body is producing to much melatonin or to little melatonin. Lets say to much melatonin is 100 mg and to little melatonin is 50 mg. But lets say just right is 75 mg.Lets say My Body is producing to much of this sleepy hormone at 100 mg. This is bad i am no sleeping beauty. So i put on a silver ring to precisely dial my hormone's back to 75 mg.My silver ring precisely dialed my body's hormone's to 75 the perfect amount for me. Firstly For the silver ring to be able to do this. The creator of the silver ring would have to have knowledge on What is the right amount of each hormone is. Then use That knowledge and design Silver to Precisely fine tuned the body to release the right amount of each hormone at the correct time. He used knowledge only an intelligent being can use knowledge according to the definition of intelligence. Since the creator would have to use knowledge. Only an intelligent being could create silver.


intelligence
  • The ability to acquire, understand, and use knowledge.




Silver regulates hormones in the body. So Silver precisely dials the amount of hormones that is released so only the perfect amount can come out.
It must be god who did the original precise dialing of the hormone so only the perfect amount is released and he programmed silver to precisely dial the perfect amount of hormones the body release's
So God precisely dialed  the perfect amount of hormone the body releases through silver.


Why i believe silver and gold is worth so much money.

Back in the day of Jesus. Stuff like mhrr oil and frankincense. plus other medical plants were worth a lot of money.For example turmeric was worth more then gold back in the day of Jesus.The part that was worth so much in turmeric was the curcumin. Curcumin can reverse damage done by schizophrenic medication. I believe they knew this and that is why it is worth so much because god told them. Other oils and perfumes were worth a lot of money to And they two had insane health benefits.I also believe the Indians got there Medical plant knowledge from God as well. 70 percent of drugs today come from plants so what i am saying here is true.Beware Big pharma anti information campaign against turmeric. Big pharma has been spreading false Study's against this plant so people do not use it.

Additionally, turmeric’s antioxidants have been found to reverse the effects of damage caused by pharmaceuticals, particularly in the treatment of schizophrenia. Commonly-prescribed antipsychotics often cause involuntary muscle movements and severe behavioral changes

  • Treating hay fever
  • As an antiseptic to clean and treat wounds
  • As a paste to help stop bleeding

    • The mainstream media appears to be the ally of drug companies. Exaggerated, embellished, and possibly fabricated headlines regularly make bad guys out of natural remedies that evidence suggests protect and heal us.

    70% of new drugs come from Mother Nature
    So i believe plants were worth so much because they had insane health benefits. I believe the same is true with gold silver and copper. I believe they were worth so much because of there insane health benefits.


    Jesus juice

    You'll be shown why one healing spice was worth more than gold during the time of Jesus
    It is also believed that the Gold they gave to Jesus was actually turmeric.If you mix turmeric myrrh oil and frankincense oil. The three gifts believed to be given to Baby Jesus by the three wise men. you can make a tonic that is as old as recorded history.Just  from these 3 ingredients.

    This holy tonic is as old as recorded history
    Yet known to very few…

    Believed to be Gods first recipe. This holy tonic has had its first test done in the 21st century's.

    It’s often referred to as “God’s First Recipe”

    And today, as 21st century scientists begin to study
    this tonic for the first time ever…

    This Jesus juice has so much health benefits it is practically magic.


    They’ve been shocked by just how powerful it truly is
    Swallowing just the tiniest amount can:
    • Guard your body from the ravaging flames of unchecked inflammation
    • Strengthen your memory and increase your alertness…
    • Soothe achy, swollen joints and muscles…
    • And nourish literally every fiber of your being.



    Conclusion of this statement

    Gold was worth so much because of it's health benefits.

    Plants were worth so much because of it's health benefits.



    Gold health benefits if you wear it.

    Blood Circulation
    Use gold to improve blood circulation which in turn regulates the oxygen flow to every part of our body. This helps to keep yourself fit and away from sicknesses.
    So gold Helps with Blood circulations. To relegate something you have to have knowledge what is the correct amount of something. So Gold precisely dials the amount of oxegen in the body. To where there is not to much oxegen and not to little Goldilocks zone exactly perfect.
    I believe it is God who created the metal to precisely dial our body's oxegen flow and regulates it.


    Gold precisely dials  the amount of oxegen that flows in the body. It has to be god because he is the only one who can create something that precisely dials anything.


    God precisely dials the amount of oxegen in our body through Gold.



    Regulates Body’s Temperature
    Gold is used to regulate the body’s temperature control mechanism which protects us from outside temperature variations and further it also boosts immunity.

    Think of this like cooking if i dial the oven at 500 degrees my food would burn. If i dial the oven at 100 the food will not cook. But if i precisely dial it at 325 the food would cook perfectly. Gold does the same thing. If my body is to hot at 100 degrees i am sick. If it is at 20 degrees i am dead. Gold precisely dials My body temperature to 90. I believe it is god Who Did the original precise dialing and he programmed these effects into gold.
    Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
    Discipulus_Didicit
    Con
    #2
    Introduction

    As previously clarified the full resolution of this debate is essentially "The healing properties of metal can only exist as a result of the supernatural intervention of a god". Pro will be required to show why this statement is most likely true, I will be required to show why it is more likely to be false.

    Therefore this debate is not about pros claimed 'healing properties'. It is about pros claim that this is the result of supernatural intervention and my claim that he is not logically justified in saying so. So for the sake of simplicity I will not be challenging the truth behind the claims of any such properties that pro has described thus far. I will be uncritically accepting all the claims made in round one regarding these properties at face value regardless of the actual veracity of the claims (which the audience may look into at their leisure if they are interested in the subject) so that this debate might stay on the intended topic of the supernatural intervention claim made by pro which forms the resolution of this debate.

    To conclude my short introduction I will point out that as no formal structure has been mandated by pro either in the forum post they challenged me to this debate in, the comments section of this debate, the description of this debate, or within pros round one argument then I will be assuming that pro is okay with assuming a less formal structuring for this debate. To this end I will be using my round one to both respond to pros round one and to build the positive case required of me by the shared burden of proof.

    Review of Round One by Pro

    As stated before I will be accepting many of pros claims without question - at least the ones regarding the properties of metals - regardless of how justified they may or may not be in reality. There are some parts I take issue with, however. The following quote comes after describing some of the properties of metal which this debate is about:

    Lets say My Body is producing to much of this sleepy hormone at 100 mg. This is bad i am no sleeping beauty. So i put on a silver ring to precisely dial my hormone's back to 75 mg.My silver ring precisely dialed my body's hormone's to 75 the perfect amount for me. Firstly For the silver ring to be able to do this. The creator of the silver ring would have to have knowledge on What is the right amount of each hormone is. Then use That knowledge and design Silver to Precisely fine tuned the body to release the right amount of each hormone at the correct time. He used knowledge only an intelligent being can use knowledge according to the definition of intelligence. Since the creator would have to use knowledge. Only an intelligent being could create silver.

    The claimed property in this case is that the minute amounts of silver absorbed through the skin by a person wearing a silver ring are capable of chemically interacting with and reducing body levels of the hormone melatonin. Is this claim justified? Doesn't matter, I have already agreed to act as if it is because this debate isn't about that. So where does that leave us? Well it is obvious that "Silver does good therefore supernatural" does not actually stand up to close scrutiny. Voters will note that pro has not even tried to explain why supernatural intervention is required for silver to react with melatonin in this way. I doubt I need to point this out to anyone reading this but I will anyway.

    There is a more important thing to note here however. Pro has now firmly established here that their position on the resolution revolves specifically around certain substances (in this case silver) having certain effects because the creator has a specific goal in mind for that substance (in this case to do good for the body). This will be important later.

    The next part of pros round one essentially claims the following:

    Back in the day of Jesus. Stuff like mhrr oil and frankincense. plus other medical plants were worth a lot of money.For example turmeric was worth more then gold back in the day of Jesus.The part that was worth so much in turmeric was the curcumin. Curcumin can reverse damage done by schizophrenic medication. I believe they knew this and that is why it is worth so much because god told them. Other oils and perfumes were worth a lot of money to And they two had insane health benefits.I also believe the Indians got there Medical plant knowledge from God as well. 70 percent of drugs today come from plants so what i am saying here is true.Beware Big pharma anti information campaign against turmeric. Big pharma has been spreading false Study's against this plant so people do not use it.

    In summary:

    1) Some plants have medical uses
    2) People from ancient times knew about these medical uses
    3) The only way for them to know this is for god to tell them.

    The first and second claims here are essentially truisms but the claim that people can only know about the medical use of plants because they were informed of these uses by god is the important point here. The problem is that pro does not even try to justify this. In fact he seems to contradict this third premise himself by pointing out that many modern drugs are derived from plants. These derivations were synthesized as a result of our knowing about the various effects of these plants and - more importantly - studying and understanding the mechanisms behind these effects. If modern people are capable of discovering new uses for plants without supernatural intervention then why should ancient people who had the same brain capacity available to them be unable to do the same? The answer is that there is no reason they should not be able to do so, they were in fact perfectly capable of exactly that.

    The part of pros argument that talks about some guy selling "jesus juice" for $60 per bottle... I honestly don't understand how that part relates to the debate.

    In conclusion pros round one essentially boils down to "Step one, X substance is good. Step three, god made it so that X substance it good". Pro leaves it quite unclear as to what step two might be as no connection is drawn between something being good and some supernatural intervention being required to make it that way.

    Examination of Purpose

    Previously pro stated that their creator deity had a specific purpose in mind when deciding how silver would interact with biology. They claim that the purpose of silver is to assist biological functions and that everything was designed around facilitating this by god. I claim that this explanation is less likely to be true than it is to be false.

    The two most likely scenarios that come to mind that would actually explain what we observe are evolution and random chance. These are obviously two very different scenarios but I will talk about the simpler of these two scenarios first, that being random chance. Perhaps I will talk about the non-random natural options such as evolution in a later round. Perhaps not, who knows? For now I will ignore them.

    For now let's focus on random chance and goddidit as out two main hypothesizes. There are two very different expectations for what we would see in the world depending on which of these is actually true.

    If god specifically created the properties of silver for the purpose of assisting biological functions we would expect to see:

    1) In some cases silver has a positive effect.

    2) In no cases does silver have a negative effect.
    Alternatively...

    If there is no supernatural intelligence intervening and random chance was the primary factor we would expect to see the following:

    3) In some cases silver has a positive effect

    4) In some cases silver has a negative effect
    Number 1 and 3 are the same, so we can simplify to:

    If god specifically created the properties of silver for the purpose of assisting biological functions we would expect to see that in no cases does silver have a negative effect.

    If there is no supernatural intelligence intervening and random chance was the primary factor we would expect to see that in some cases silver has a negative effect
    So the question is, do we ever see silver having a negative effect on biology? The answer is of course yes.

    In round one pro linked a news article about a scientific study (the one about whether silver or plastic should be used as arthritis splints). Here I will link not to a news article about splints but instead to an actual scientific paper whose subject is the toxicity of silver in cells. Examining the effects of silver ions on toxicity levels and such. I cannot go into too much detail due to character limitations so I will simply link the paper below the relevant quotes for anyone wishing to read it themselves. It is rather short as scientific papers go, but the only parts relevant to the debate are the following:

    Liu and Hurt have studied the dissolution of silver nanoparticles at different pH and found an increase of the ion release at lower pH. We can therefore assume that the silver nanoparticles will undergo accelerated dissolution after endosomal uptake. However, the time in the cell culture medium is much longer than the time in the lysosome, therefore the toxic action of silver is probably due to both effects.

    Our hypothesis that the release of silver ions determines silver toxicity was confirmed by cell culture experiments. If the nanoparticles were stored under argon, they did not partially dissolve and therefore were much less toxic towards tissue-like cells than the same particles stored under air.
    Due to the fact that silver toxicity is already a well-documented phenomenon the paper was less focused on the effects of silver toxicity and more on its causes. It is still possible to extrapolate somewhat on its negative effects by comparing the positive controls with the silver-poisoned results in each sample.

    I have less than 200 characters remaining, not enough for a proper round conclusion, so I will simply leave it there and let the debate proceed to round two.
    Round 2
    crossed's avatar
    crossed
    Pro
    #3
    Ions silver does not come naturally


    Technically speaking, a silver ion is an atom of silver that is missing one electron. It is the outermost electrons of an atom that determine the physical properties of matter. Take away one electron from a silver atom and you get a silver ion which is water soluble.
    Plus anything that gets in your cell is bad.You might have heard me talk about heavy metals in plants.The reason why that is bad is because it gets into your cells and do not get out.This is why the overly priced cytodetox exist

    cellular detox



    On the topic of  silver doing bad and good thus it as not created to do only good.Silver if worn destroys the bad bacteria But it does not do this with good germs.In fact it strengthen it. SO it can distinguish the two.

    Sovereign Silver ONLY kills the BAD bacteria and strengthens the good!

    What was considered bad and good was learned after Adam ate the forbidan fruit which held the knowledge of good and evil.Only an intelligent being can have knowledge.Let alone knowledge of good and evil.


    Everything was created to reflect god's moral system. The creator would have to have  knowledge of good and evil when creating all of life.Germs that help us are considered good.But germs that harm us are considered bad.

    Pectin is the key ingredient that encourages growth of good bacteria and reduces "bad" bacteria

    immune system help good germs And helps them fight bad germs.How is the creator intelligent and have knowledge of good and evil


    The creator of the apple  designed the apple to feed good germ. But not bad germs.How is the creator intelligence and able to tell the difference between good and bad bacteria.If the creator is not God.This proves the creator had knowledge off good and evil.



    Olive oil kills cancer cells but not good cells.How is the creator of the universe have knowledge of good and evil.If it is not an intelligent being. Only an intelligent being can have intelligence.That is just common sense so how is it intelligent and have knowledge of good and evil.






    Conclusion


    Con needs to demonstrate how evolution is an intelligent being and has knowledge. Because only god possesses this quality.HOW does the creator have knowledge of good and bad.

    Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
    Discipulus_Didicit
    Con
    #4
    I forgot to link the scientific paper I referenced in round one so, here it is... https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/tb/c3tb21569e#!divAbstract

    I did link it in the comments after posting round one and realizing this detail was missing so pro did have access to it while they put together their round two arguments.

    Now, on to the debate.

    Response to Round Two by Pro

    The first words from pro is the claim that silver ions cannot occur naturally. This does not help their case for two reasons. The first reason it does not help pros case is that this claim is false, the second reason is because even if true this fact would be irrelevant (indeed pro does nothing to explain why the existence or nonexistence of positively charged silver atoms in nature has anything to do with the resolution but I will still take the time to explain why it does not).

    Silver Ions Can Exist in Nature

    Positively charged silver atoms ,in other words silver ions, are produced any time a neutrally charged silver atom loses electrons. This is because an atom is considered neutral when it has an equal number of positively charged protons (in the case of silver this is 47) and negatively charged electrons (this number varies depending on the charge of the silver atom), therefore losing electrons from such a system translates into a loss of negative charge therefore causing the overall charge to be positive.

    Pretty simple right? right.

    So is it possible for silver to lose electrons in nature? yes. Separating an orbiting electron from its nucleus is actually one of the easiest physical changes to induce at the atomic level. The process of separating electrons from an atom is called oxidization and in the case of silver is commonly induced artificially for various reasons. This process can occur in nature too, however. All that is required is for the silver to be exposed to some oxidizing agent such as, for example, oxygen. Because oxygen exists in abundance in the atmosphere this process is quite common. The oxidization process of course occurs faster if artificially induced through other oxidizing agents and natural oxidization can be artificially prevented, but natural oxidization (whose byproduct is the production of silver ions) does exist and happens all the time, much to the chagrin of jewelry owners the world over.

    It Doesn't Really Matter Though

    As I mentioned before pro doesn't really explain why the existence of positively charged silver is relevant to the resolution. The implication is that silver ions are in some way not silver and therefore if a silver ion does 'bad things' as defined by pros subjective standard then silver, being according to pro a separate substance, cannot be said to 'do bad things'. This is the connection I am forced to draw due to the fact that pro draws no connection of their own.

    If this is the implication however, it is a profoundly silly one. Positively charged silver is still silver. Negatively charged silver is still silver. Silver is an element and what makes an element at the atomic level is the number of protons in each atom, and that number in all these cases is 47. If pro wishes to specify that they are talking about a certain type of silver, such as the neutrally-charged non-ionic silver nano particles discussed in the above-linked scientific paper on silver toxicity, then they should specify that for the sake of clear communication.

    Anyway, I just realized I just spent about 3500 characters responding to the first six words of pros round two. I believe that in doing so I have affirmed to voters why my positive arguments in round one are justified despite pros attempt at a round two counter, however. I will try to be more concise going forward.

    Regarding the rest of pros round two, it seems to mostly be a mish-mash of more ads of random products like the ones seen in round one. pros main 'point', if there can be said to be one, seems best summed up in their conclusion statement:

    Con needs to demonstrate how evolution is an intelligent being and has knowledge. Because only god possesses this quality.HOW does the creator have knowledge of good and bad.
    It is important to note that I have not talked at all about evolution other than to mention it in passing a single time. Thus far I have not compared pros resolution claim to evolution, I have only compared it to random chance, which is obviously something far different that evolution in a huge number of ways. The thing is, I think this quote sums up what is wrong with pros fundamental approach to this whole thing in the first place. Pro is saying that it is obvious that we came to exist through an intelligent process and that he thinks that process is god. He thinks that I agree that we come from an intelligent process but that I think it is the intelligent process of evolution. This is false. There is no need for me to demonstrate that evolution is an intelligent process because I never said that it was. Like I said before I never even brought evolution up in this debate.

    What I would like to see out of pro in round three is the following:

    1) Make it clear what is being claimed, try to leave as little as possible up to potentially erroneous interpretation on the part of myself or the voters.
    2) Justify claims made by something other than linking to an ad for 'Jesus Juice'
    3) Explain how each claim made actually relates directly to the resolution.
    Round 3
    crossed's avatar
    crossed
    Pro
    #5
    Forfeited
    Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
    Discipulus_Didicit
    Con
    #6
    Extend.
    Round 4
    crossed's avatar
    crossed
    Pro
    #7
    Sorry i sincerely forgot about this.I am trying to reconnect with nature

    Silver ions are occurs when silver loose's an electron.
    Silver is not suppose to do this.It is broken.It lost an electron

    Silver ions attack both good and bad germs.Because it is broken.It is missing an electron. Naturally it attacks bad germs but not good germs.Only an intelligent being can have knowledge of good and evil.



    Sovereign silver attacks the bad germs but not the good germs.Sovereigns silver has all it's electrons.Sovereign silver is how god intended it. It is like if i build a car but it loose's it's wheals.Should i expect it to drive


    I have rewritten my argument for better understanding.



    Kills bad germs but not good germs

    soap kills both good and bad germs because it is not intelligent and can not discern the to.


    But let's say for example scientist create a soap called smart soap. This soap can tell the difference between good and bad germs.Which is why it is called smart.Unlike this normal soap.
    This smart soap is intelligent it only kills the bad germs but spares the good germs.The reason why it does this. Is because The scientist programmed there knowledge of good and bad into the smart soap.This is what i am saying god did with sovereign silver.That is why it kills bad germs but not good germs


    This is exactly the same as what god did below


    Chemotherapy kills good cells and cancer cells because chemotherapy can not tell the difference between a good cell and a bad cancer cell.Chemotherapy is when the doctor poisons its patient's in the hope that the poison kills the cancer cells.But because the poison is not intelligent it kills both the good cells and the bad cancer cells.Because the poisonous substance is not intelligent and can not tell the difference between good and bad


    olive oil kills cancer cells but not good cells.It does this because it's creator is intelligent and can tell the difference between the two.Just like the made up example smart soap.It was the scientist who programmed there knowledge of good and evil into the soap.God put his knowledge of good and evil into olive oil.

    the made up smart soap is what i am saying sovereign silver is doing.


    olive oil is what i  am claiming sovereign silver is doing.

    precise dialing


    think of this like cooking if i dial the oven at 500 degrees my food would burn. If i dial the oven at 100 the food will not cook. But if i precisely dial it at 325 the food would cook perfectly. Gold does the same thing. If my body is to hot at 100 degrees i am sick. If it is at 20 degrees i am dead. Gold precisely dials the temperature of the body temperature to 70. Since it has this effect gold must have been programmed  with it.


    if my right body temperature  is 75. The hottest i can go without dyeing is 150 and the coldest i can go is 20 without dyeing. Everything in-between will just make me sick or be less comfortable.I wear a jewelry and it dials my body temperature to 75.THe chances of it landing on 75 is 1 out of 150 so if it was random.It would take 150 try's to get to the Goldilocks zone of 75 degree's.But it is designed to find the right temperature each time.The chance of that happening is slim.SO the only reasonable solution's for this is that it was precisely dialed to that level. THe only one who can do that is the one who created it.And it would have to be an intelligent being.





    DIsclaimer
    Smart soap aint real.I just needed something to compare it to.The other thing found in nature that attack a bad thing but not a good thing.Are to show what i am claiming with those occurency found in valuable metals


    Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
    Discipulus_Didicit
    Con
    #8
    Forfeited
    Round 5
    crossed's avatar
    crossed
    Pro
    #9
    I am a herb guy. I am just saying since these thing exist in plants it is not unlikely to exist in rocks.
    Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
    Discipulus_Didicit
    Con
    #10
    Forfeited