Instigator / Con
11
1378
rating
36
debates
38.89%
won
Topic
#1258
Homosexuality is Immoral
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
11
1395
rating
22
debates
20.45%
won
Description
My opponent will be arguing that homosexuality is immoral. I will be arguing that it is not immoral. If you are planning to use quotes or statistics, do not forget to cite your sources.
Round 1
Both homosexual sexual intercourse and homosexual desires are not immoral.
Does homosexaulity decrease human happiness and increases human suffering? Obviously it does not, in any way. Homosexuality does not harm anyone and it is a personality trait, not a choice humans make.
Over to Pro.
"Both homosexual sexual intercourse and homosexual desires are not immoral."
First, Con has to let us know what is the basis for morality. If it is just his opinion, then why should I even debate? Why should his opinion dictate my opinion about homosexuality. If I don't agree with his opinion then is my opinion less than his? Con, must let us know who makes morality and why we should obey.
"Does homosexaulity decrease human happiness and increases human suffering?"
This is a good question. Obviously, homosexuality has cause human suffering. It has broken homes, devastated wives, confused children and has led to widespread AIDS all over the world. Homosexuals have committed suicide and there is an even higher homicide rate among them than among heterosexuals.
"Homosexuality does not harm anyone" Tell that to people who have gotten AIDS by needles.
"Homosexuality is a personality trait." I agree. That personal trait is called sin. We are all born with a tendency to sin. In contrast, ‘my genes made me do it’ is really reducing the person to an automaton, a mere animal driven by instincts. It’s dehumanizing, really, and robs the person of any alternative life or change (which many people struggling with this issue want). And in fact, there is evidence that change is possible. Indeed, for anyone in Christ, change is inevitable (2 Corinthians 5:17). Studies that look at differences between people engaged in homosexual behavior, (such as reactions to male or female sweat, etc.) are useless because our behavior affects our tastes/likes/dislikes, etc. We become what we do. Our brains are ‘plastic’, as stroke researchers know. And the fact that many people successfully reorient their sexual preferences shows that these are not ‘innate’ but learned, albeit there are things that influence towards ‘learning’ certain behaviors. Also see narth.com/gay---born-that-way on the implications of identical twin studies, which are the only truly scientific way to check for a genetic basis for homosexual behavior.
Round 2
"First, Con has to let us know what is the basis for morality."
Something that is harmful to other people is immoral.
"It has broken homes, devastated wives, confused children and has led to widespread AIDS all over the world."
AIDS is also spread by heterosexual sex, and by blood donations. Does that mean that heterosexual sex and blood donations are immoral? Furthermore, homosexuals can easily avoid getting AIDS during sex by simply using a condom. Homosexuality itself is not the cause of AIDS, unprotected sex with strangers is.
"Homosexuals have committed suicide and there is an even higher homicide rate among them than among heterosexuals."
Sources are required for statistics by the debate rules. Violating the rules of the debate is bad conduct.
"That personal trait is called sin. We are all born with a tendency to sin.
Can you support that claim, instead of just making baseless assumptions?
==
Whether homosexuality is caused by nature or nurture is irrelevant, since we are discussing its morality only.
Your link to narth.com is not accessible, I suspect that it is fake just like your other statistics.
"Something that is harmful to other people is immoral."
Yes, but who is to decide that. Is it immoral to go to war? War is harmful to many people yet it is necessary in order to defeat enemies. How about life imprisonment, that is harmful to many people. What about the businesses that produce cigarettes and beer? They harm many people, are they immoral? What about abortion, that causes harm to many babies, is that immoral? So obviously some people have reason to harm others and it is considered moral.
"AIDS is also spread by heterosexual sex"
This is true. That is why sex outside of marriage is also a sin.
"homosexuals can easily avoid getting AIDS during sex by simply using a condom."
This is also true, yet obviously they don't or else we would not have an AIDS problem. However, even if they did use a condom, we all would know what would happen if they didn't.
"Sources are required for statistics by the debate rules. Violating the rules of the debate is bad conduct."
Can you support that claim, instead of just making baseless assumptions?
Yes, because my morality comes from a higher source that just arbitrary man. My source for morality comes from God.
Round 3
=REBUTTALS=
"Is it immoral to go to war? War is harmful to many people yet it is necessary in order to defeat enemies. How about life imprisonment, that is harmful to many people. What about the businesses that produce cigarettes and beer? They harm many people, are they immoral? What about abortion, that causes harm to many babies, is that immoral? So obviously some people have reason to harm others and it is considered moral."
My stance on morality is that something which does not harm others can NEVER be immoral. My stance is not that something which harms others is AUTOMATICALLY immoral. So while it may be harder to determine what is immoral, it's very easy to determine what is not immoral. Just see if the thing you're claiming to be immoral harms anyone, and if it does not harm anyone, then it's not immoral.
"AIDS is also spread by heterosexual sex"This is true. That is why sex outside of marriage is also a sin.
Does my opponent think that AIDS is only spread by homosexual sex and sex outside of marriage? If he does, I'm sorry to break it to him. It's perfectly possible for a husband to infect his wife with AIDS, and the other way around. According to my opponent's logic, all sexual intercourse is immoral, since there is always a chance that AIDS will spread. And according to that same logic, many other things which can lead to disease are also immoral.
""homosexuals can easily avoid getting AIDS during sex by simply using a condom."This is also true, yet obviously they don't or else we would not have an AIDS problem.
Some of them do, some of them don't. It's wrong to assign blame on all members of a group based on the actions of some members of a group, especially if membership in that group is involuntary. Homosexuals are more likely to get AIDS because anal sex is more likely to spread AIDS, not because homosexuals don't care about using condoms.
"However, even if they did use a condom, we all would know what would happen if they didn't."
If they didn't use a condom, most likely nothing would happen. There is a slim chance that one of them will get infected if the other has AIDS, but this chance is also present in heterosexual couples. And according to this logic, heterosexual protected sex is also immoral, since "we all know what would happen if they didn't". Also, isn't Christianity against the use of protection during sexual intercourse?
"My morality comes from a higher source that just arbitrary man. My source for morality comes from God."
Morality that comes from the whims of supernatural beings is ultimately arbitrary and subjective.
============
=CONCLUSION=
My opponent has yet to prove how homosexuality, which harms nobody, is immoral. I assume that in his next argument, he will try to argue using the Bible since he said that "my source for morality comes from God". Well, guess what GeneralGrant, the Bible says that homosexuals should be murdered (Leviticus 20:13) and that slavery is perfectly moral, and that you can beat slaves as long as they don't die (Exodus 21:20-21)
So, GeneralGrant, if your morality comes from God, please answer these two questions:
1. Should men who engage in homosexual intercourse be executed?
2. Is it moral for me to own another human being and beat him with rods as long as he does not die as a result?
"It's perfectly possible for a husband to infect his wife with AIDS, and the other way around."
Yes, but this only happens is one of the two have had sex out of marriage and acquired that disease. Therefore their sexual intercourse before marriage. whether homosexual or heterosexual, caused AIDS within marriage. However, two virgins getting married will not bring AIDS. AIDS comes by sex out of marriage or by blood transfusion of someone that had AIDS. Which in those cases, make homosexuality a danger. I know a young boy who died of AIDS from a blood transfusion. That person who donated their blood that had AIDS, was the cause of someone else's death. AIDS comes only through sin.
If we had less homosexuals and less fornication, we would have less AIDS. I don't remember that AIDS was beneficial. AIDS is harmful, and homosexuals help spread it.
"Also, isn't Christianity against the use of protection during sexual intercourse?"
Christianity is against sexual intercourse before marriage. However, if a married couple doesn't want kids yet, I can see them using a condom when they have sex.
"Morality that comes from the whims of supernatural beings is ultimately arbitrary and subjective."
Part of your statement is true and part of it is false. Morality from God is not arbitrary because He does not change. Man does change, that is why it is arbitrary. There is only subjective morality.
1. Should men who engage in homosexual intercourse be executed?
This command you should know is part of what is called the Civil Law in the Bile. There are three types of laws in the OT. 1.) The moral law: this is the law for all people everywhere. 2.) The civil law: these are laws specifically for Israel as a nation. 3.) The ceremonial law: this is the dietary laws and the Temple laws. In our case the moral law would be that homosexuality is wrong for all people everywhere. The civil law is what God wanted the nation of Israel to do with homosexuals in their land. I do not live in the nation of Israel, I live in the USA. The worse the USA ever did to homosexuals was put them in jail. God never commanded the nation of Israel to kill the homosexuals when they were captives in Babylon, Greece or Rome.
2. Is it moral for me to own another human being and beat him with rods as long as he does not die as a result?
I will not answer this question because it does not have to do about homosexuality. If you want to debate on that specifically you will have to create another debate.
Round 4
Yes, but this only happens is one of the two have had sex out of marriage and acquired that disease. Therefore their sexual intercourse before marriage. whether homosexual or heterosexual, caused AIDS within marriage. However, two virgins getting married will not bring AIDS.
This discussion about AIDS is becoming irrelevant. I think me and my opponent can agree that AIDS is caused by sexual intercourse with strangers, not by homosexuality. So let's drop this topic.
AIDS comes only through sin.
Not true, but like I said this is becoming irrelevant so I won't counter this claim.
Part of your statement is true and part of it is false. Morality from God is not arbitrary because He does not change. Man does change, that is why it is arbitrary. There is only subjective morality.
If something is moral just because a very powerful being said so, than that morality is arbitrary. If your only reason for thinking something is moral is that God told you so, your morality is arbitrary as it is based on the personal whims of a supernatural being. Man changes, but that does not make the beliefs of man subjective. We believe that matter can neither be created nor destroyed (Law of Conservation of Matter), and we can change our mind, but that Law is still objective and not subjective.
This command you should know is part of what is called the Civil Law in the Bile. There are three types of laws in the OT. 1.) The moral law: this is the law for all people everywhere. 2.) The civil law: these are laws specifically for Israel as a nation. 3.) The ceremonial law: this is the dietary laws and the Temple laws. In our case the moral law would be that homosexuality is wrong for all people everywhere. The civil law is what God wanted the nation of Israel to do with homosexuals in their land. I do not live in the nation of Israel, I live in the USA. The worse the USA ever did to homosexuals was put them in jail. God never commanded the nation of Israel to kill the homosexuals when they were captives in Babylon, Greece or Rome.
This is irrelevant. If you believe that everything God commmands is moral, and that the Bible is the word of God, then everything the Bible commands is moral. So, you must believe that killing homosexuals, whether everywhere or in Israel or inside a temple, is moral. And I assume that you don't believe that, since you seem to be a peaceful and non-violent person. So does that mean that you are defying the commands of God?
I will not answer this question because it does not have to do about homosexuality. If you want to debate on that specifically you will have to create another debate.
This question has nothing to do with homosexuality, however is has everything to do with morality. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and everything God commands is moral, then everything the Bible commands must be moral. The Bible says that it's okay to beat your slaves as long as they do not die, therefore using your logic beating slaves is moral. So please, answer my questions about execution and beating slaves, they are relevant to the morality we are discussing.
============
=CONCLUSION=
This debate is going nowhere. My opponent has yet to demonstrate that...
a) The Bible is the word of God.
b) God exists.
c) Homosexuality is immoral if God says so.
TheAtheist out.
"This discussion about AIDS is becoming irrelevant."
It is very relevant to this since AIDS harms people. AIDS can be contracted by a homosexual relationship, even by a virgin homosexual relationship. A virgin heterosexual relationship will not cause AIDS. So homosexuality is harmful.
"If something is moral just because a very powerful being said so, than that morality is arbitrary."
Maybe by some other deity, but not the God of the Bible. It is not in His nature to change, why? Because He has said so many times in His Word. His Word is unchanging. Man's morality is arbitrary and subject to change. Take Hitler and the Germans, they believed he was morally right is getting rid of the Jews. (Which they got from Darwinism.) If left up to man, morality becomes subjective.
"If you believe that everything God commandants are moral, and that the Bible is the word of God, then everything the Bible commands is moral. So, you must believe that killing homosexuals, whether everywhere or in Israel or inside a temple, is moral. And I assume that you don't believe that, since you seem to be a peaceful and non-violent person. So does that mean that you are defying the commands of God?"
The Bible makes it clear that the commandment to kill homosexuals only pertained to Israel, why? Because Israel was a theocracy. God, hates homosexuality and He does believe that death is the penalty still (hence why AIDS is incurable and there is a Hell). But that God's standard of punishment. Just like someone who murders. In the Bible a murderer was to be executed as well. In some states in the US capital punishment has been done away with. Does that mean we should still kill the murderer, no, of course not. We are not under a theocracy, but under a federal republic. If the US was a theocracy, then yes, the punishment for homosexuality would be capital punishment. As I explained capital punishment for homosexuals is what God commanded Israel specifically to do with homosexuals, but He did not set that standard in His Moral Law.
This question has nothing to do with homosexuality, however is has everything to do with morality.
I believe AIDS is more relevant to our theme than slavery. I will stick with the morality on homosexuality. If you want to debate about the morality of slavery we can do that after this debate.
The Moral Law itself proves there is a God.
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>Reported Vote: CommanderCornJuice // Mod action: [Removed]
>Points Awarded: 4 points to pro for arguments and conduct.
>Reason for Decision: His reasoning about the AIDS, confused children, devastated wives, etc. just shows how it impacts people around them including themselves. The AIDS through needles (most likely blood transfusions) show that being can actually hurt (and sometimes kill) others. If you normally hurt or kill someone, you can be charged for assault, manslaughter, homicide, etc. It was also a very good point when he explained the difference between Civil Law, Moral Law, and Ceremonial Law. Therefore, I think he proved the point of the argument, which may I remind you all, is whether homosexuality is immoral, not whether you support it or not.
Reason for Mod Action>This vote is not eligible to vote. In order to vote, an account must: (1) Read the site’s COC AND have completed 2 non-troll/non-FF debate OR have 100 forum posts.
In addition, the voter does not justify either arguments or conduct as required. The voters does not survey and weigh arguments the main arguments; nor provides any explanation of conduct.
To award arguments, the voter must (1) survey the main arguments and counterarguments in the debate, (2) weigh those arguments and counterarguments against each other, and (3) explain, based on the weighing process, how they reached their decision.
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Thank you for voting!
Trying to get someone to accept this again?......
Con even has an angle to take that will counter a lot of Pro's arguments:
That it isn't homosexuality that's evil, only acting on it that is.
This troll-angle is extremely powerful if Con does it correctly because it leaves voters who aren't dedicated to voting against Con, the ability to side with Con from two totally opposing angles on homosexuality as an act in and of itself.
whoever accepts to be publiclay shamed as this site is VERY po homos