Instigator / Pro
janesix's avatar
5
janesix
1395
rating
12
debates
4.17%
won
Topic
#1227

Civilization Was inspired by and created by God

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
2
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
1
2

After 2 votes and with 9 points ahead, the winner is...

Barney
Tags
Religion
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
2
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
Barney's avatar
14
Barney
1815
rating
53
debates
100.0%
won
Description

Civilization did not develop slowly through small advancements created by human beings, but came on the scene fully-fledged practically overnight. Civilization was given to human beings, through inspiration, by God.

Round 1
janesix's avatar
janesix
Pro
#1
It is my belief that civilization came on the scene fully formed, beginning with the Sumerians about five to six thousand years ago. I contend that there were no precursors leading up, in a step-wise fashion, to the first civilization. There are no instances of progression from hunter-gatherer society to the first civilizations, namely Sumer. There were other fully formed civilizations that came  a little later, namely Egyptian, Chinese,and the Indus civilizations. These civilizations as well have no known precursors or signs of progression to a fully-formed society. 

" The Sumerian appeared at the dawn of history as a fully developed society with a technology and organisation that was different and superior to other societies of the time."

San Hose State University


I put forth the idea that the details of society, including all of the integrated systems such and writing, building, mathematics and astronomy were given to humans through inspiration directly from God, through dreams, visions, reveries, trance states etc. 

Evidence for this includes testimony from modern scientists, such as Darwin, Meneleev, Kekule, Descartes, Ramanugen, Leowi, and Agassiz who have claimed getting scientific information through dreams, trance states, fever dreams etc. 


Also included is my own personal experience receiving specific information regarding astronomy, geometry, canonical numbers through dreams, synchronicities, visions and trance states. I know this is not evidence of course, but I wanted to include it so you understand why I believe what I do, and why I have reached this conclusion. 
Barney's avatar
Barney
Con
#2
I have two simple replies:
  1. Lack of Evidence
  2. FSM is More Likely

1.       Lack of Evidence
No affirmative evidence has been offered, merely the didit fallacy [1]. As described by RationalWiki:
A didit fallacy is an informal fallacy that occurs when a complex problem is handwaved away by invoking (without reason) the intervention of some powerful entity.
In essence:
1.   Something happened, I'm not sure why.
2.   X did it!
It's that simple.

“testimony from modern scientists”
No such testimony has been offered.
 
Occam’s Razor
Civilization has been proven to exist, God has not, therefore Occam’s Razor [2] identifies it as more likely the factual beings created the fictional. Were we to ignore this, why choose any one fictional being over say Mickey Mouse as the creator of civilization?
 

2.       FSM is More Likely
No discussion of something being done by divine intervention is complete without the inclusion of multiple potential gods each at least equally likely to have done it. To avoid a Gish Gallop, I’ll focus on just the Flying Spaghetti Monster [3] (henceforth FSM).

The key difference between God and the FSM is that God never makes mistakes, whereas when the FSM was creating the universe it was “either careless, drunk, high, or all three” [4].

Even civilization not rising everywhere all at once and always being at the same technological level, suggests if a divine being stepped in, it was not an omnipresent one like God.

ID v. UD
Intelligent Design (ID) contrasts with Unintelligent Design (UD) in both the creations and their creators. ID is God’s perfect works, such as beings that never suffer cancer or other randomly occurring ailments; UD on the other hand had an unqualified architect resulting in all number of defects.
 
If the perfect creator stepped in to make civilizations, they too would be perfect without wars or other problems. Whereas a flawed creator would do a deplorable job of it, resulting in wars, financial inequality, and all number of other things we witness today.

 
Sources:
  1. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Didit_fallacy
  2. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
  3. https://vimeo.com/31543194
  4. https://flyingspaghettimonster.wikia.org/wiki/Creation_of_the_World
Round 2
janesix's avatar
janesix
Pro
#3
"An equation means nothing to me unless it expresses a though of God"-Ramanugen



“Technology is a gift of God. After the gift of life it is perhaps the greatest of God’s gifts. It is the mother of civilizations, of arts and of sciences.” 

Freeman Dyson

“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
“I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.”

Isaac Newton

"The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power.”

Nikola Tesla


The Sumerians themselves believed civilization was started by the Gods:

The short tale “Marduk, Creator of the World” is another Babylonian narrative that opens with the existence of the sea before any act of creation. First to be created are the cities, Eridu and Babylon, and the temple Esagil is founded. Then the earth is created by heaping dirt upon a raft in the primeval waters. Humankind, wild animals, the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, the marshlands and canebrake, vegetation, and domesticated animals follow. Finally, palm groves and forests appear. Just before the composition becomes fragmentary and breaks off, Marduk is said to create the city of Nippur and its temple, the Ekur, and the city of Uruk, with its temple Eanna.


Earlier, ENKI is thought to be the keeper of the MES, the foundations of civilization:

In Sumerian mythology, a me (𒈨; Sumerian: me; Akkadian: paršu) is one of the decrees of the gods that is foundational to those social institutions, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.


Uruk is considered by archaeologists to be the first city of the Sumarians. Inanna tricks Enki into giving her the MES, which she then delivers to the first city of URUK







Barney's avatar
Barney
Con
#4
Thanks for the quick debate.

 
1.       Lack of Evidence
Didit Fallacy
Pro has dropped that his entire case is just the didit fallacy, so extend.
As for Sumerian beliefs which are just adding detail to the fallacy; note the concession in pro’s own heading “believed civilization was started by the Gods” key word being Gods plural, not singular. “Marduk” instead of God apparently built the first city in this account.
 
“testimony from modern scientists”
Religious men who were good at science, does not prove they were given a priori knowledge instead of unlocking it through arduous work. Plus, the number one testimony from pro is from Srinivasa Ramanujan, who was Hindu not Christian, thus if given divine knowledge it would come from the dharma not God.
 
Were ability in science to come from even the general divine, we would not be having this conversation as the father of computers was Alan Turing, an atheist. Religious fanatics actually suppressed his work and effectively murdered him in the name of God [1].
 
Occam’s Razor
Pro has dropped this, so extend.

 
2.       FSM is More Likely
Pro has dropped the entirety of this section, thus leaving the FSM instead of God as the only considered divine source of our messed-up civilizations.

All glory to the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
 

Sources:
  1. https://www.alternet.org/2012/08/8-atheist-and-agnostic-scientists-who-changed-world/