Instigator / Con
28
1614
rating
17
debates
85.29%
won
Topic
#1118
Should the Bible be used as a moral compass?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 4 votes and with 15 points ahead, the winner is...
Pinkfreud08
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
13
1472
rating
2
debates
0.0%
won
Description
The goal of a moral system is to find a system which is logically consistent.
So for example, if my moral system defined intelligence as the valuable trait in humans, by logical extension any being with intelligence is also valuable.
However, consistency isn't the only thing we're looking for we also need a moral system that we agree with where we get consistent outcomes we like.
So back to that example it may be consistent however if intelligence is the trait than by logical extension, mentally challenged people also aren't valuable.
To summarize, a good moral system is consistent and doesn't lead to absurdity both of which the Bible lacks which will be elaborated on by me later.
Rules:
- Keep it civil
- This debate is going to assume that Gods version of morality is subjective and not objective morality
- We're going to be examining the Bibles morality, the Bible does have a place in a modern society in the form of studying for academic purposes. Similar to Hitlers books and killers manifestos.
Pretty simple debate topic, if I left any rules or definitions you feel I should have clarified I urge you to tell me so that I may clarify.
Round 1
Greetings before we start I will clarify a couple of things,
1. I am NOT 100 % against religion, I have many friends and family who are religious who are good people at heart.
2. I am NOT against the 100 % eradication of the bible. In light of my first debate on this subject with KillShot, The Bible has places in modern society. Not necessarily as a moral compass, But for the studying of our history, And for various form of academics.
Before you prove to me why the Bible isn't repulsive and has a place in modern society, I will first explain why I and many others believe the Bible is repulsive. For my argument, I will be using direct quotes of the Bible followed by my analysis of this. On that note, let's get started.
"You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt Because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, Their pregnant women ripped open. " (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)
- In this quote, God is destroying an entire town including women and children, Simply because they rebelled against him. Surely a loving and forgiving God would forgive the people of Samaria for rebelling against him? Furthermore massurcurring an entire town just because they don't believe in God is not the way to go about it, Instead of destroying them God could simply try again to save them. If they rebel again, Than God should just leave them alone and not kill them.
" And in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking a place of their own where they might settle Because they had not yet come into an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. . . . Then they said to [the priest], 'Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful. ' The priest answered them, 'Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. '. . . Then they took what Micah had made, And his priest, And went on to Laish, Against a people at peace and secure. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. . . . The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there. " (Judges 18:1"28 NIV)
- In this quote, God is once again destroying an entire people so that one of his tribes could live there even though the Tribe living they're originally was peaceful and didn't want to harm anyone.
"See, The day of the Lord is coming " a cruel day, With wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated. " (Isaiah 13:9"16 NIV)
- In this quote God is saying that because this group of people was arrogant their infants should be put to death, Their houses should be looted, And their women raped. Once again God is wiping out an entire group of people simply because their arrogant which is once again REPULSIVE.
These 3 quotes are just the tip of the iceberg, Other quotes in the bible state that women shouldn't have any authority or that disobedient teenager should be stoned to death. While the Bible does have some good lessons to teach such as thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, Or love thy neighbor, The Bible overall is repulsive
Another very common argument is that I am only citing from the old testament when that testament isn't Gods teachings. Even if we buy this argument, it's still irrelevant since the new testament is also repulsive as well.
"Women Should Shut Up in Church: 1st Corinthians 14:34 NASB"
- This is a pure example of the blatant sexism exhibited in the Bible, And sexism is REPULSIVE.
" Return Runaway Slaves to Their Owners: Philemon 1:12 The Message"
- Slavery is a violation of human rights And helping the slave owners catch runaway slaves is almost as bad as owning them. Since the new testament preaches slavery, This makes the new testament REPULSIVE.
" The Wealthy Will Be Condemned by God: James 5:1-5 NASB"
- I currently am growing up in the California bay area which is arguably one of the richest areas's in the world, And I've learned through the first-hand experience that the majority of rich people are kind, Giving, And forgiving, While there are horrible rich people out there, The mere fact that the bible clumps all rich people into one negative category is almost as bad as racism or sexism. Which in and of itself, Is REPULSIVE.
The bottom line is even if we buy this argument that the old testament is invalid, There are still many immoral messages in the new testament which make the new testament as well as the old testament, REPULSIVE.
However I am very open to someone changing my mind so that being said I hope whomever you are, We can both learn a little something from this debate.
Sources:
Before the universe, there was nothing. Nothing, and only nothing can come from nothing, as logic says. However, in this nothing, there is nothing to support logic, so it is possible for something to come from nothing. It is also possible for the world to come from this nothing and then the bible is formed. So, there is a need for the bible to be used as a moral compass.
Round 2
Firstly my opponent's argument is structured very weirdly and is very confusing to follow so just to clarify I'll try to paraphrase,
What my opponent is stating is that God is real, therefore the Bible is objective morality and should be used as a moral compass.
There are many things wrong with this and here's why,
my opponent is using the nothing argument to justify Gods existence however this logic fails since this could justify literally any gods existence.
Tell me specifically how this justifies the Christians gods existence?
Also, this is assuming the bible is objective morality which we already clarified it wouldn't be.
I am assuming this is my opponent's argument and if it isn't I ask of my opponent to clarify.
What I meant was no object can come from itself.
Round 3
So you're pretty much using the " something can't come out of nothing argument " correct?
Ok well, what's your explanation for God existing than? Where does God come from? Who created God? Where did the thing creating God come from?
Okay,
"Women Should Shut Up in Church: 1st Corinthians 14:34 NASB"
Been there. Done that.
"The Wealthy Will Be Condemned by God: James 5:1-5 NASB"
Solomon, anyone?
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>Reported Vote: Snoopy // Mod action: [Not Removed]
>Points Awarded: 3 points to con for arguments
>Reason for Decision: See vote
Reason for Mod Action> Arguments are sufficient as per the voting guidelines.
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>Reported Vote: Ragnar // Mod action: [Removed]
>Points Awarded: 3 points to con for arguments, 1 point to pro cod conduct
>Reason for Decision: Con did not explicitly say they are conceding, but it was implied by their final round being "Okay," agreeing to how they were soundly defeated (not that they ever challenged why stoning girls to death and such is a bad thing).
Con, I suggest making your quotes bold or italic to make them stand out better from the surrounding text.
Reason for Mod Action> This vote would have been sufficient for a concession, but upon review, as the debater did not clearly and unambiguously concede the debate, I don’t think it can clearly be treated as such for the purposes of moderation.
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>Reported Vote: King_8 // Mod action: [Removed]
>Points Awarded: 7 points to pro
>Reason for Decision: Bite my shiny metal ass. Pinkfreud started this first, so returning the favor.
Proof:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1120
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1113
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1049
Reason for Mod Action> Revenge votes are absolutely unacceptable and completely disallowed.
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Deleted my vote since its gonna get deleted by mods anyways no matter what. It never fails. Anyways, here in the comments, I will vote for Con. Pro put no effort into making arguments and ignored Pro's entire case in Round 1.
Hi Al0ne, welcome to the site; before you can vote you must have completed 2 debates, or 100 forum posts, and have read the code of conduct (I have provided a link below).
To try and make sure votes are fair and impartial, we have list of requirements you need to use to construct a reason for you voting decision, simply saying one side is better is not enough as of means anyone would be able to vote against s position or person they didn’t like. It’s important that debates are not simply popularity contests - either for the position or the person. This goes make it harder and more arduous to vote, but does try and make it so the better debater wins. Because of this, I’m afraid I’m going to have to remove your vote.
That said, welcome to the site!
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>Reported Vote: Al0ne // Mod action: [Removed]
>Points Awarded: 5 points for sources and arguments.
>Reason for Decision: Con definently won this.
>Reason for Mod Action: Reason for Mod Action: This vote is not eligible to vote. In order to vote, an account must: (1) Read the site’s COC AND have completed 2 non-troll/non-FF debate OR have 100 forum posts.
The vote is insufficient, the voter should review the voting requirements section of the code of conduct here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
*******************************************************************
How do I vote?
Ask bsh1, Virtuoso or Ramshutu how to vote.
Simply put those names I just mentioned into the "Recievers" and ask them "How do I vote?"
If you want to put 3 at a time do this "bsh1, Virutoso, Ramshutu"
Good luck folks. I'm going to get my popcorn, lol!
Oops, looks like I missed out. I'm curious to see how the Pro side presents their arguments (since this would have been my position had I accepted quick enough.)
Okay thanks.
No, Pinkfreud would make the first argument. Just hurry up and accept the debate before someone else does
If I accept the Pro side of the debate, would I get the first argument?
Assuming you're asking again, I am taking the con position.
You're not rude, I'm just curious what your position is on the debate and whether I want to accept your challenge.
Not to be rude or anything but on the debate itself I took the Con position.
Excuse me, friend, are you taking the Pro stance that, Yes, the Bible should be used as a moral compass? I'm a bit confused based on what you said in the Description; it sounds like you are taking the Con position. Maybe I misunderstood?
ok than
You have misinterpreted your own definitions. Hopefully you improve your reading compregension skills and ability to write in a coherent fashion before responding to my arguments otherwise this will be an easy win for me but a frustrating debate for voters to read through.
Yeah ok then I mean if you don't want to accept the dictionary definitions of the terms and don't want to listen to reason that's on you.
Also, I am pretty sure you're trolling at this point ( and judging from your win-loss ratio and past debates this is most likely the case ). You do understand that socialization can also mean socialistic policies right? Even if you were correct you're just playing word games at this point.
You're pathetic attempts to insult me have only outlined that you truly have no argument or counter-argument and are instead trying to win by use of personal insults ( which aren't even valid since I proved your poorly constructed hypothesis wrong ).
What the hell did I think I was going to get when somebody thinks the definition of socialisation is to implement socialistic policies instead of meaning to "talk to people".
I broke down the definitions to you in an understandable way and you are still confused by them. This is just getting silly
You actually misinterpreted your own definitions lol and I even accepted the one fron the random user on stack exchange. I've debated dozens of timea on objective morality. I know what it is. You are confused and doubling down instead of trying to understand. I have read your other debates though and see the comprehension thing and incoherence is a common problem with you. It is not an insult. Just the truth.
I mean they're not to my whims I want to debate and have an open mind whether or not the bible is moral or not.
Alright so now you're not only ignoring the definitions I sited which I explained in a pretty simple and easy to understand way, but now you're resorting to baseless personal insults.
Alright, now. Keep it civil.
You are honestly having a hard time understanding the definitions you, yourself googled and provided. I think it is due to reading comprehension problems and a low IQ. I tried my best to dumb down the definitions to a level you would understand but I could not dumb them down enough. You can go to the philosophy portion of the forums and ask about it there, but I get a feeling your comprehension ability will prevent you from understanding what people are telling you there as well.
No, I wasn't implying that morality is objective with that question. No, I'm not playing word games.
Putting aside the flawed idea that the bible should interpreted to your subjective whims, Christianity is not about getting outcomes we like.
So it seems you're just playing word games, are you implying that morality is objective?
Ok, so you are completely going to ignore the countless definitions of it I've cited to you and instead make up your own definitions which have little to do with objective and subjective morality.
The situations and semantics of the statements have nothing to do with this.
Objective morality means the morality is inarguable and it's a fact.
So under an objective morality system if murder happened to be wrong and I stated,
" Murder is right"
Well under that system since it's objective morality that statement is incorrect.
Under a subjective morality system, that statement would be arguable hence why I am clarifying that this debate will assume God's morality is subjective as inarguable and not a fact.
I am having a hard time understanding why you believe this is so troubling when these are established definitions and am having a hard time why you're making up your own definitions for these words.
I mean the definition I cited literally states that objective morality is implying the morality is a fact.
"Ok well just because it's subjective doesn't mean we cannot examine the morality to see whether or not it should be taken as a moral compass."
-PinkFreud
Wouldn't a compass ordinarily have an objective reference?
Qhat's said right now is that you are being ignorant. The bible can be completely fake and the norality could be provably wrong and it would still be objective morality espoused in the bible. This is not that difficult to understand except for the fact you think describing a system of ethics as being objective morality means you are claiming it holds some sort of truth. How this is written if your opponent even stated "tThe bible claims murder is wrong" he would be violating the rules of the debate because that is an example of objective morality, whetger it is true or not.
Well you can feel free to have comprehension issues on the subject but you are incorrect. Subjective or objective reality can be objectively correct or objecfively wrong (in theory) but it does not mean subjectively right or wrong.
An objective moral statement would be something like the following.
"Lying is wrong in all situations"
Where subjective morality would be something along the lines of the following statement.
"Lying is sometimes right and sometimes wrong depending on the situation"
Subjective ethics would be something along the lines of utilitarianism which accounts for the effects of your immediate actions while objective morality may resemble Kantian ethics.
Objective doesn't imply that the framework is correct though somebody pushing the framework will obviously believe it to be correct.
Ok well just because it's subjective doesn't mean we cannot examine the morality to see whether or not it should be taken as a moral compass.
Ok I don't think you actually understand the definition.
The definition heavily implies that Subjective morality is SUBJECTIVE as in an opinion that matters purely of what a person believes in.
The definition heavily implies that objective morality is OBJECTIVE as in an opinion that matters of fact.
I am choosing to tackle it in terms of subjective morality since objective morality would imply Bibles morality as a fact.
This is a very simple concept to understand, subjective means opinion based while objective means a fact. There's a reason why they call them objective and subjective morality.
And yes actually because if God exists then that means the Bible is objective morality since the Bible are the teachings of God.
If God truly did exist this would prove the Bible correct which would mean the Bible is objective morality.
"Many including myself don't believe it's objective since in our opinions God doesn't exist. "
Then there would be no reason to entertain "God's Version", and your compass points towards the Black Pearl.
Whether God exists or not has nothing to do with the ethical framework presented in the bible LOL. It is objective morality whether it is true pr not. Is this trolling or are you legitimately that dense?
The point is that the morals in the bible claim to be an objective set of morals (not situational) but you are asking your opponent to argue in favor of subjective (situational ethics in the bible when none exist.
That is tge definition of what a person believing in objective morality professes it is not a statement on whether objective morality is true nor how we get to what is objectively correct.
If you didn't understand the answer you found on stack exchange perhaps you should have found one you could understand. Now I am not even sure if you are trolling or just really confused about what it means for somebody to believe that morality is objective.
The Bible and religion call it " objective ".
Many including myself don't believe it's objective since in our opinions God doesn't exist.
You claim to want to talk about the bible. If morality is objective, then you can't assume its subjective...seems intellectually dishonest.
" The facts are “objective” in the sense that their truth does not depend on who judges them, or whether anybody judges them at all. "
Keyword, DOES NOT DEPEND.
Meaning that objective morality makes it a FACT.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.405.1352&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Another definition states this,
" A proposition is objective if its truth value is independent of the person uttering it. A fact is objective in the same way. For morality to be objective, moral propositions such as "Killing is bad","Stealing is bad", etc... need to be TRUE independently of the person who is stating them."
Both definitions stating that objective morality is based on facts.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/30683/what-is-objective-morality
No, lol. Whether it is objective or subjective morality being applied has nothing to do with whether God's morality is objectively right.
Subjective morality means morality that is shaped by whatever is correct in the moment. Objective means it is a more rigud standard of ethics. It has nothing to do with whether the morals are objectively right or not.
Very baseless accusation to make,
if we assumed God's version of morality is objective, then my opponent could just state that because God's morality is objectively right, it should be taken as a moral compass since it's correct.
So this enables us to be on even ground.
Why would the debate assume God's view is subjective. That is not only dumb and unfair to your opponent it is untrue. The morality handed down in the bible is pretty objective. Do not murder. Do not steal, do not fuck your neighbor's wife etc. No ody is going to debate this dumb shit. You must be hoping somebody glosses over your conditions so you can get an easy win
lol
Bibles make excellent compasses!
Materials
Sewing needle about 22 inches long
Small bar magnet or refrigerator magnet
One leather-bound gold-gilt fully-illustrated King James bible.
A shallow bowl
Pliers
WARNING: Needles are sharp! Use caution.
*To magnetize the needle: Rub a magnet along the needle a few times in one direction only
*Securely grip the needle with the pliers and with the bible on a flat surface, push the needle through one end of the bible and out the other so that the needle is sticking out of both ends of the bible evenly. (Be careful)
*Fill the bowl half-way with water and place the bible on the surface of the water
Place the whole “compass” on a flat surface and watch the bible as it sinks to the bottom of the shallow bowl. The needle should point towards the nearest magnetic pole depending on how closely God has been paying attention.
Now go test out your new compass and see if you can orient yourself on a map!
Oh ok that makes sense.
Pretty much.
bad god vs. good god. bad god who turns Lot's wife into a salty statue vs. sermon on the mount good god.
Sorry, I don't comprehend this statement, can you explain?