Anime Debate | Which anime fights are better?

Goodbye K8!

Don't see the point in arguing so I'll just ask bsh1. If he says no then I'll wait until the next time this happens and I see it.

Hey!

My ask is perfectly reasonable and I would like an answer.

I understand what you’re saying; but we do not enforce rules debaters place in the debate for two specific issues I mentioned below.

Just moderate the rules put in place.

The actual scoring would be subjective but them working under the rules is not subjective because King_8 has clearly laid it out and if they don't understand that then you shouldn't be moderating anything because there is a chance that the MEEP wouldn't be understand by everyone so it is subjective.

Basically moderate based on the rules being followed not the actual vote in the boundaries of the rules put in place.

In this scenario a user must have a 1-10 rating for each fight. You don't moderate the rating you moderate if they followed it. Weird way of saying it but don't really know another way of saying it.

Some of this aren't my views. Just appealing to your way in order for you to understand what I am trying to say.

The reason competition style debates are no moderated is because the entire basis of the debate is inherently subjective and to be fair, it’s impossible to really moderate them appropriately.

As for rules; while moderation will take rules into account whilst assessing votes, (IE: if you award points vote as per the rules of the debate in a way that would be insufficient were it not for that rule, we won’t remove that vote), we don't enforce them.

The issue is that (a) we’re human, and interpreting potentially complex rules makes vote review so much harder; and (b) it sets a dangerous precedent whereby any debater can manufacture a set of unchallengeable rules that moderators must enforce despite potentially being unfair.

How about the choice of the instigator to make it moderated and have rules?

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Note: this is a competition style debate and as such votes on this debate will not be moderated
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vote

Understood

I would make them a single week. Anime debates especially are more for the purposes of entertainment, and I don't think any prospective voter would want to wait an entire month to see the result of their vote, discouraging them from voting early. Furthermore, as you've suggested, the extended periods make the debate prone to ending up on the bottom of the pile especially in juxtaposition to other debates that have voting periods of just a single week. Furthermore, I believe that shortening the voting period would also attract more prospective opponents to any anime debate, which are scarce to begin with, you conceive.

Well how long do you make your voting periods? If its one month, does it lessen the possibility of more people voting, because of newer debates happening and appearing above it?

@King_8:

"Athias, did you get my comment about the reason why I always make the voting period one month? Hopefully you understand."

Yes, I did. I think a month is overkill, but you started the debate, so it's your prerogative.

"Athias - I do get what you are saying but you must understand everyone has a different perception. It's not that serious. Please have good sportsmanship because the behavior being displayed from you does not show professionalism, it just shows pouting and saltiness. Knocks off respect points on your end. There's something I disagree with whiteflame as well but I'm not going to sit up here and go back and forth with him as it is his opinion. It's just an anime debate, not everyone has seen the same series as us, such as MHA, Death note, OPM or HxH. It can't be helped. If this was a serious debate about worldly issues and reality, then a back and forth this long would be warranted."

I don't disagree with the vote per se, I disagree with the reasoning. The reasoning for Basilisk and Basilisk alone stuck out like a sore thumb, so I addressed it. As I told whiteflame, a consistent score/vote is better than an inconsistent one, even if that meant the other series, including my own, would have gotten lower scores. And I take all debates seriously; if I simply intended to talk about this casually, then I would've suggested we move this discussion to the forums.

@whiteflame:

"For what it's worth, I don't think this is about whether Athias won or lost. I understand his frustration because I understand what he thinks I did and how it could have affected my perception of a particular scene. He saw aspects of my vote that gave him the impression that I applied a different standard to the Basilisk fight and wants me to own the perceived error, so this is more about standing on principle than standing in opposition to my vote."

Basically, yes.

Yeah, fun fact I almost put Aizen vs Everyone in round 2, that was my original plan. But instead, I replaced it with Ichigo vs Aizen just to make a similarity with Ichigo and Gon reaching final forms. Anyways, hope this misunderstanding ends and a solution comes out of it.

For what it's worth, I don't think this is about whether Athias won or lost. I understand his frustration because I understand what he thinks I did and how it could have affected my perception of a particular scene. He saw aspects of my vote that gave him the impression that I applied a different standard to the Basilisk fight and wants me to own the perceived error, so this is more about standing on principle than standing in opposition to my vote. I've said as much as I'm willing to say in defense of this decision. We may (and clearly do) disagree on the Aizen vs. Ichigo fight (though I will say that there are numerous fights I would have given huge points to from Bleach, including the one you mention about Aizen vs. everyone), though I can see why you love that particular fight, in the same way that I can see why Athias appreciates the fight from Basilisk.

(4/4)

4. I honestly loved Ichigo's calm and "not giving a f*ck" nature, it shows his confidence, especially coming from the fact that Ichigo was terrified of Aizen at first when they first fought in the air and Aizen effortlessly dodged all of his attacks + Aizen cutting down everyone in front of him, but it is his opinion. Lastly Athias, whiteflame did a very good in depth job of rating our fights he listed. It was very long, thought out and he worked hard on it when he didn't have to do that. I'm glad (and surprised) that you thanked him but to nitpick one thing he's done beforehand? On top of that, I only won over you by just one point. It's not that we had a significant number difference of points. Be grateful. I wonder had whiteflame kept all his reasonings the same (referring to Basilisk) and had you won over me and had higher points, would you have still confronted whiteflame? I think not. (2/2)

5. Solution - Perhaps a future debate such as this one, rules could be laid out to say "Explain context of fight" maybe? Don't know, maybe that might avoid a situation like this happening again in the future. Anyways, I hope more people vote. I'm interested to see them. That's why I make my voting period a month (Iterating this to Athias)

Thanks so much for your in depth vote whiteflame. I'm not just thanking you because I won. Even if Athias would have won, I still would have thanked you instead of acting butt hurt.

(Read my comments from bottom to top)

(3/4)

3. The same way I came across Aizen vs Everyone, the same happened with Ichigo vs Aizen final fight. I watched that before even reaching that moment and I loved it without even knowing the context. It just looked obvious to me. I understood that Ichigo must have trained and got stronger and I understood that Aizen reached his final form because he looked very different. whiteflame, if you decide to watch HxH (which I highly recommend), you'll understand those fights, and when you do, they'll become a whole lot better to you and make more sense since you know the story behind them. Gon vs Pitou is an extremely spoiler rich scene that should be avoided in all costs if you haven't seen HxH. Plus, it's a lot of story behind it. The people who've seen HxH knows this, as it's such an epic moment for many reasons. I know I may have risked spoiling many people by posting the fight here in the debate but I did so to see what people think of it and how they would rate it and plus I love that fight so much, even though it was super one sided. Wasn't much of a fight. Also, you don't need to change your scores to please Athias. Your vote is your vote. (3/3)

4. Athias - I do get what you are saying but you must understand everyone has a different perception. It's not that serious. Please have good sportsmanship because the behavior being displayed from you does not show professionalism, it just shows pouting and saltiness. Knocks off respect points on your end. There's something I disagree with whiteflame as well but I'm not going to sit up here and go back and forth with him as it is his opinion. It's just an anime debate, not everyone has seen the same series as us, such as MHA, Death note, OPM or HxH. It can't be helped. If this was a serious debate about worldly issues and reality, then a back and forth this long would be warranted. But the point I do disagree with is the Ichigo vs Aizen fight score and the reasoning, I think it deserved more than a "4". (1/2)

(2/4)

3. For a person who hasn't seen Hunter x Hunter that watched Netero vs Meruem, that would be a fight that would be easier to understand what's going on to an extent. (easier to understand than Gon vs Pitou) whiteflame proves this. But this fight as well has a lot of context behind it that must be understood. The point I am getting to is 1) It's easier to understand some fights than others and whiteflame just happen to understand the Hunter x Hunter fights more than the Basilisk fight. 2) It's cool and fun for someone to jump into a fight and watch it without knowing anything about it and to draw their own conclusions from it and see what they take from it. I did that with Speedrace. I showed him the fight, he didn't know any of the context or what was going on of course but he still liked it because he took some things from it, and then I explained it to him in the end. For example, before I even watched Bleach (I was planning to watch it) I stumbled across Aizen vs Everyone which is one of the best fights in Bleach IMO and one of my favorites. I knew nothing about the fight going in. Soon as I started watching, it was so epic and I automatically understood what's going on. From watching so much anime, you get these general ideas of what's going on and what's happening. I obviously knew that Aizen was the main villain because how insanely strong he is as he was taking everyone down with ease. I assumed it was some kind of war, and all the characters, who I knew nothing about - I assumed they were of course the good guys, and Ichigo was in the background just scared because of Aizen's power. That's what made me want to watch Bleach. Aizen is my top favorite villain in anime. So, with that being said, it just depends how people take in things. Some may understand, and some won't. I remember showing someone Aizen vs Everyone, and they didn't understand it even though it's very easy to understand to me, in my opinion. (2/3)

(1/4)

1. Athias, did you get my comment about the reason why I always make the voting period one month? Hopefully you understand.

2. I read the both of your comments word for word to try and get an understanding and for a resolution. I get where the both of you are coming from. No one is in the wrong. I just feel as though you both are going in a circular motion, this definitely isn't going anywhere.

3. For whiteflame's case, some series that he hasn't seen - sure it may be hard for him (or anyone for that matter) to understand the context of what's going on that perhaps lead up to that fight. The simple fact is that some fights are harder to understand than others when it comes to context. I'd argue that the Gon vs Pitou is one pretty damn confusing fight to go into if you're watching it randomly (as whiteflame did, coming from the fact that he hasn't seen Hunter x Hunter) there's so many questions. 1) Why is Gon slumped over crying in the beginning. 2) What is Pitou doing? 3) Who's is the dead man on the floor? There's so many questions. The dialogue between Gon and Pitou (right before Gon powers up with his rage) makes it pretty clear on why he was so emotionally torn and one can easily conclude why they are fighting. At the same time, there is so much build-up behind this fight that you have to watch the series to understand. I remember being early on in Hunter x Hunter and I happen to come across Gon vs Pitou on youtube and it looked really interesting and I mistakenly clicked it and spoiled myself, I only watched the beginning of it and then skip to where Pitou gets kicked, and I stopped there. But from seeing it, it made me hype because it looked super interesting. Once I reached that certain point (even before reaching it with prior episodes), I finally understood everything and it all made sense. I remember showing Speedrace the fight and he was automatically intrigued from the beginning because it looked interesting to him. (1/3)

I’m not here to analyze plots. I’m not proclaiming the greatness or awfulness of shows based solely on single scenes. I can analyze and enjoy a variety of plots, and I’m sure Basilisk is a great show. It’s not my aim to disparage it or find specific fault with this scene. I’ve got a scale and I’m rating how well this scene jives with certain elements I look for in a good fight scene, as well as one that draws me into the emotional turmoil involved. It didn’t do that. Feel free to hold me responsible for some arbitrary judging in this case, though if you were going to do that, I’d focus more on my Death Note vote, where I can see a better case for your point. I certainly brought in outside context there, and for that, I erred. I would not say I did so to any great degree in my assessments of the others, including Basilisk.

What I said, and what you keep using as thought it encompasses the entirety of the reason that I made the decision I did, is that my lack of context made the decision more difficult. Determining what to award a scene that was clearly meant to connect on a level of subtext that none of the others (save Death Note) shared is not easy when you haven’t seen the previous episodes that inform it. My capacity to sympathize with the characters and understand what why are going through is impaired, I admit that. Your claim, though, goes beyond that. You say I didn’t make the same assessments regarding context on the other videos. I’ve pointed out several instances in which I did just that. What you’re also missing is what I’ve now stated a few times in pieces, but I’ll iterate as clearly as I can here.

A fight is usually a series of big actions back to back, and much as there may be little context in a scene for those actions, I can judge them based chiefly on spectacle. That’s easy to do when you’re dealing with lots of sakuga. It’s a lot harder to assess quieter moments, like those with Death Note and, yes, Basilisk. There’s a lot of subtlety to these scenes with a lot of meaning behind certain looks and words. The context for those, I would argue, is a lot more important because if I don’t have it, I don’t have grandiose animation to fall back on. So, yes, all the scenes that you mention lack context. That’s not the chief points that matter to me as I assess them. They may lose a point for its lack. I don’t feel the same about scenes that rely heavily on that context to be understood or appreciated. Only Death Note and Basilisk has that reliance in my eyes. So, if you want me to re-score them taking out context as a factor, I’d still end up giving Basilisk a 5, and Death Note would drop to a 7, since I have little clue from the scene itself what’s so important about this death.

"However, to be clear, if I took context out of the picture, it’s your score that would suffer the most. My vote would not change, even if the scores would."

I've already acknowledged that possibility. My contention isn't that you voted in favor of King_8's choices. My contention is that your reasoning for Basilisk, and Basilisk alone, was inconsistent. A consistent vote is better than an inconsistent one, even if it meant that my other choices would also have gotten a "5" (e.g. Death Note, My Hero Academia, etc.) And it's not a different perception. You, yourself, entertained the possibility that your not watching the series may have informed your understanding of the context. (I even quoted you verbatim.) This context you're looking for in Basilisk isn't present in the other clips, with the exception of just a few. I know this because I've watched every series mentioned in this debate in their entirety with the exceeption of One Piece, which I gave up on a long time ago. So I know the scene between Netero vs Meruem does not have this context of which you speak; I know that the scene between Saitama vs Boros doesn't have this context of which you speak; I know that the scene between Light and L doesn't have this context of which you speak; I know the fight between Kirei and Kiritsugu doesn't have this context of which you speak; I've watched them. Any substantive character motivation or background woudn't have been made available to you by watching those scenes alone, even if you had watched them in their entirety. But rather than holding yourself responsible for the incomplete context your lack of watching informed, you instead obligated the scene and selection to do this. If you don't agree with this conclusion, that's fine as well. This discussion obviously has no bearing on your vote since it's already been cast. Think of this as an exercise in plot analysis.

Clearly, this isn’t going anywhere. You have a very different perception of what I did and why I did it than I do, and I’ve explained what went into my decision as best I am willing to do at this time. If that’s what you believe based on what you’ve read of my posts, so be it. However, to be clear, if I took context out of the picture, it’s your score that would suffer the most. My vote would not change, even if the scores would.

So, for example, had you given a score commensurate to the others, or for example, grading the scenes, even my own, much lower because they in and of themselves had just as much or not enough context either, I wouldn't have been vexed. Because your rationale would've been consistent. I may have still lost your vote regardless.

My issue isn't that you had an opinion. My issue is this opinion is applied inconsistently. Knowing that you haven't watched the series, the demand or requirement for contextual explanation ought to have been somewhat tempered. To the contrary, you held your lack of watching the series against the scene, instead requiring that it made episodes of build-up clear in the submitted clip. That would be fine, but did the clips of One Punch Man do this? Hunter x Hunter? Death Note? (These questions are rhetorical, I know that they don't.) Not even the scenes in their entirety give context to episodes of build up, so then what is the one difference between Basilisk and the other series? You haven't watched it. Instead you characterized it as a poor selection because of a context which could've been obtained by watching the previous episodes. So the question then becomes: how much context do you require? I explained several aspects of just the scene alone that one could've objectively used to create a picture of what's going on. In other words, context. If however, you were looking for a bit more in-depth character analysis in a single scene, that would be a bit much, an amount I'm fairly confident the other clips/scenes haven't done.

I'm not saying you should've lied. I'm saying that you should have considered more introspectively. "To what or whom does the responsibility of my not watching Basilisk belong?" The scene? The selection? Or yourself? You entertained the third as a possibility, but you essentially placed it on the former two; thus, your frequent mention that it went beyond the scope of the debate to "expect" you to do research despite your being the one to demand context. And this is only exacerbated by the fact that: (1) I didn't know you would vote beforehand, and (2) I didn't know you would participate having not seen the show.

I stated up front that Basilisk is a show I have not seen and do not know well. I guess you would have thought my decision better if I had been dishonest and claimed that I had seen it or left out any mention of my lack of foreknowledge of the series, but hey, let's put that behind us. I have now stated multiple times that context did affect other fights badly, including the Bleach and Akame Ga Kill fights presented by your opponent. Basilisk is not alone in this. I’ve also stated that the fight itself didn’t draw me in based on spectacle. So, what do I have to base it on? Well, there’s a lot of character motivations at play. You don’t just have two people fighting it out, and when several of them are interfering in the fight for dramatically different reasons, that makes for a lot of subtext. I feel like understanding that subtext gives the scenes emotional weight, but I don’t feel it because I’m not familiar with these characters. You say that the reason for that is that I haven’t watched it, but I would probably have given it a similar score if I had. I’m judging these based almost entirely on what I see on the screen, not based on the emotional stakes built up over a litany of previous episodes. The one and only major caveat to that is Light vs. L, and if you want, I can take away the points that I gave you there to make it fair.

I’m not going to continue going through what reasons I had for it not connecting with me. I have more I could put into words, and more I can’t. That’s how interactions with media tend to work – not everything can be explained in objective terms. I guess, from the outset, I just should have put scores next to each and not given any explanation. It would have made this a lot simpler.

A lot of your comments show that you're taking some things out of my own context (interesting, considering the discussion we're having). I admit fully and up front that my experience with these series colors my observations of them. There's no way to remove that. What I have said repeatedly, and what I'll say again, is that context is an important aspect, but it's not the end all be all either. If we have two characters fighting it out, then the context matters less because there are only two sets of motivations at play. If I understood none of the context from the Fate Zero fight, I could still say it's an extraordinarily well-choreographed fight between two exceptionally well-animated characters. If that was all I had, if I excluded the entirety of their backgrounds and motivations, this would still get a high score. What you're doing, and where I think your context is flawed, is assuming that this is the sole or major reason why I have made any of these decisions. At best, these factors raise a couple of these by a point, and bring a couple of them down by the same. What you've deduced, as you say, is based on selective reading of my reasoning at best.

Then when you watch the other clips and ascertain that this context is either just as limited, or perhaps more so, then yeah, I will question your consistency. Why was Oboro's motivations being clear necessary? Why did the presence of the other characters not pay off (if this had no discernible context, why would that have any sort of meaning either way?) You admitted/presumed correctly that there was some build up over the previous episodes of which you did not know (instead requiring the scene selected to make the extent of this building up clear.) When you really think about it, you are the variable: you watch the series, you understand; you don't watch the series, you don't understand.

"Look, if you don't like my reasons, that's your prerogative."

I don't dislike your reasons; I'm vexed by the inconsistency.

"and you can either choose to believe that or choose to conclude that someone who went through a great deal of effort and consideration with all of these choices (more so with the Basilisk fight because I spent quite a bit longer analyzing it) is being dismissive of the fight's strengths solely because he hasn't watched the series."

It's not really a matter of belief; it's your statements that inform my conclusion:

"This one’s the hardest to judge because I have no context for it (haven’t seen Basilisk). I’d say it probably wasn’t the best choice because it seems to build from some really integral relationships built up over the past 8 episodes. 'Maybe it’s just because I have seen the others,' but I don’t think any of them required a build up or understanding of the series of events as much as this does."

and

"(harder to do with Kiritisugu and Kirei, but hey, that's Fate Zero for you)."

Context with others is conveniently available to you because you already watched the series. You admit that Fate/Zero doesn't give much context "but hey, that's Fate Zero for you." It's not like I'm making this up as I go. I'm reading your statement, and deducing your logic.

"You may want someone who is willing to judge these fights on a more basic level or someone who has watched all these series and has extensive knowledge of the context behind each of these fights. Sorry, I can't do either of those things, and I tried to be relatively fair in leaving out much of the context behind these fights and focusing on the information I was presented."

I want someone to judge these fights consistently. When you mention this demand for contextual explanation for Basilisk alone, coupled with your mention of not watching the series, it's not unreasonable to relate the two.

Look, if you don't like my reasons, that's your prerogative. I disagree with your conclusion, and I disagree with your characterization of my other choices as well. Not having seen a series does not automatically reduce the effectiveness of its fight scenes in my eyes, and you can either choose to believe that or choose to conclude that someone who went through a great deal of effort and consideration with all of these choices (more so with the Basilisk fight because I spent quite a bit longer analyzing it) is being dismissive of the fight's strengths solely because he hasn't watched the series. You may want someone who is willing to judge these fights on a more basic level or someone who has watched all these series and has extensive knowledge of the context behind each of these fights. Sorry, I can't do either of those things, and I tried to be relatively fair in leaving out much of the context behind these fights and focusing on the information I was presented. If that's not enough for you, then so be it.

If the fight itself didn't impress you, then it didn't impress you. (There's no shame in it being that simple of a reason.) I'm scrutinizing your judgement based on the standards you've claimed you've used here. I'm stating that this "context" you've claimed is absent in Basilisk isn't really present in many of the other clips provided including some of my own. To have a grasp for Boros's motivations, for example, you would've had to have watched the entire episode and some of the previous episode; to understand Saitama's motivations you would've had to have watched a few more episodes, the very thing for which you penalized Basilisk (i.e. the satire, the hero association, the rankings, the irony that Saitama, then a Class C Hero, was the one who defeated Boros, etc.) And let's face it, reading succinct character summaries isn't as compelling as watching the content, which unfortunately for Basilisk, the other series had that luxury. There's no immersion; there's no relation.

I'm concluding that your judgement is mostly (if not entirely) influenced by your not watching the series, and you admit almost as much when giving your initial reason. And many of your criticisms are derivative of your not watching it. And Basilisk, even in that short scene gives more context than many of the other clips (probably with Goku vs Frieza and Kakashi vs Obito being among the few (if not only) exceptions.)

I watched the entirety of these scenes from start to finish, i.e. if a scene did not include the beginning of the fight (e.g. when Saitama bursts in and Boros explains the entirety of his motivation), I found it and included it in my assessment. In my opinion, it's part of the fight. I did that for every single one of these fight scenes. For the longer ones (Luffy vs. Doflamingo, the Basilisk fight, and Yugi vs. Yami), I watched the entire episode, and for the Basilisk fight in particular, I went out of my way to research the characters and get some idea of what their motivations were. I judged them in a way that took into account the superficial aspects of the fight, and the background information/motivations/contexts that I could glean from the fight itself. Having more information/context being conveyed does not necessarily improve the degree to which I understand a scene or can relate to what's going on, so I think that standard is problematic.

I've already gone well beyond what I feel I ever needed to do to justify a choice I've made on here. If you feel I should have been able to glean more information from the Wikipedia page or from the scene itself about the motivations of the characters, you're welcome to think that. I'm telling you what I took away from the scene. That clearly clashes with how you saw it, but those are my impressions. I'm telling you what I got from the scene and the limited research I did, and even with added motivations, it may not have gotten higher. If you want to claim that the sole reason for the difference is that I did not watch the series, be my guest. It's entirely possible that I would have rated it the same regardless. I disagree with how you think I'd characterize the fight between Kirei and Kiritsugu without context (I think it's a badass fight regardless of context) and the same goes for all the fights you listed. Hell, I haven't even seen Hunter X Hunter, yet Netero vs. Neruem still blew me away.

You're essentially holding the Basilisk scene responsible for your not watching the series. And given the nature of this debate, King_8 and I were allowed to select among hundreds of different anime. Not to mention, I've never conversed with you before the fact, so there's no way for me to know which anime you have seen. Not every scene gives you the entire picture, and if you're going to hold that against Basilisk, that's fine. But then the same can be said for Saitama vs Boros; Netero vs Meruem; All Might vs All For One; Kirei vs Kiritsugu; Light vs L, etc. Most of these clips don't give the entire picture.

I know that this is entirely subjective; my concern is the consistency. And you're not being genuine about Saitama vs Boros. Based on the clip alone, there was no mention of "looking for someone powerful enough to challenge," not even anything close to it. You had to have seen a longer version, meaning you did your own research outside of the selected clips, or had to have seen the series/episode already to form your judgement. There's no way to grasp any of that which you stated if someone were watching that clip with a fresh pair of eyes (and I know this personally because before I watched One Punch Man, this scene was shown to me, and I didn't think much of it then.) My point is, if you were going to judge the fights superficially, then judge them superficially. If background information, motivations, and contexts need to be conveyed during the fight, then that standard ought to be applied to all, no? Even in my recommended four and half watch of Basilisk, there's a lot more information and context conveyed than that clip of Saitama vs Boros. The difference is that you've seen One Punch Man, and you haven't seen Basilisk.

And I find it hard to believe that you couldn't glean Oboro's motivations, if not from watching that scene, then reading her wikipedia description. In the first three lines of her description in both the fandom wiki and wikipedia, it states that she's the leader of the Iga Clan and she's engaged to Gennosuke Kouga. So how far did you read? Kirei vs Kiritsugu also contained a lot of subtext, especially since there was no dialogue in that scene. What was the difference? You saw Fate/Zero.

Beyond that, I do think I applied similar standards to what I have seen. In a vacuum, Ichigo vs. Aizen is incredibly difficult to understand. Without foreknowledge of the Hougyoku, Ichigo’s time training just before the battle, or Aizen’s total control over his life up to that point (not to mention some idea of what Zangetsu looks like to understand that final form), it’s incredibly difficult to understand what’s going on. The lower score reflects that, despite the visual flair of the fight. A similar problem exists with Akame vs Esdeath (though I think there’s information missing even for long time viewers there). The rest of these choices are mostly more straightforward and have the sakuga to stand out regardless of how much you understand. You can disagree with that, but, again, this is subjective. What I’m taking from these fights may be different from what you are. In the end, your last choice just didn’t do much for me on several levels, and while I’m sure there is something great there, I can’t see it without the context of previous episodes.

The reality is that any decision here is subjective. What we choose to like from a given fight scene depends entirely on what we take away from it. Contrary to your statement about Saitama vs. Boris, I don’t need to know anything about the background of either character to get an idea of why the fight is occurring (the latter says multiple times during the fight that he was looking for someone powerful enough to challenge him), nor do I need context for their strength. I’m not applying that standard to literally any of these; how they obtained their strength was not a factor on any of my decisions. Sure, if I hadn’t seen the series, I might have been put off by Saitama’s aloof nature, but most of my decision derived just from how cool the fight is to watch.

So I don’t know what standard you think I’m using, but I think I gave at least some clear reason for every since choice. You’re not happy with my last choice, and that’s fine, but I watched it twice, read the Wikipedia page for the characters to understand more of what was going on, and still couldn’t glean a reason for Oboro’s intervention. I shouldn’t have to go to those lengths to find out what motivated these characters, and considering just how pivotal that part of the fight was, the fact that I was lost didn’t help. In all, though, in terms of visual strength, it just didn’t have it for me. One scene (at the time stamp you gave me) was decently cool to watch. The rest was mostly subtext, i.e. there was a lot going on but we were meant to glean it from what the characters both were and were not saying. That’s great storytelling, but it’s not so great when a) I don’t have the background on these characters and b) I have an isolated set of scenes to analyze. I was clear that I had not seen Basilisk, but that doesn’t mean that my choice was derived solely or even largely from that lack of knowledge.

As for backgrounds and motivations, you gave Saitama vs Boros a "9." I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve it, but based on that clip alone, you don't know the reason Saitama is as strong as he is, training for three years doing 100 push-ups and sit-ups (and the beautiful satire that conveys.) You have no idea who Boros is; you have no idea of the reason they're fighting to start with. You had to have watched the series to ascertain that information, especially given that Saitama tends to be aloof and doesn't talk much during fights.

I'm only vexed by the standard you used because many of the same criticisms can be made of the other clips. Thus, it's the reason I'm stating that your judgement essentially boiled down to whether or not you had watched the series previously.

There's plenty you can grasp from watching that scene. First, I pinpointed that specific time because Tenzen pretty much gives a cap of what's going through his internal monologue. Not to mention, the dialogue between the characters (i.e. Saemon, Hotarubi, Nenki, etc.) They at least once refer to themselves or the other as "Kouga and Iga," so you know it's a conflict between Kouga and Iga. They also mention that the truce was just broken. You know there were already casualties in Saemon's mentioning of Kazamachi and the "lone woman tortured to death," who happened to be his younger sister, and Hotarubi's mention of Yashamaru, who happened to be her lover (though the English Dub makes this more clear.) You know Oboro is part of the Iga clan because of the way the Iga clan members treat her (that is, not attacking her.) It turns out that she's their leader despite Tenzen assuming effective command of the Iga, which can be discerned from their formation and Tenzen's behavior. You know there's some relationship between Oboro Iga and Gennosuke Kouga because of Oboro's behavior (either friendship or romance.) Given that it's a conflict between two ninja clans, there was mention of a truce, and Gennosuke and Oboro are an adult male and female respectively, one can reasonably assume it's romantic. You know that Gennosuke Kouga is the leader of the Kouga because of how Saemon and Gyoubu stand in front of him amidst the conflict (not to mention, I stated as much when posting the link.) So I disagree that there isn't much that this scene doesn't do well on its own.

But just because you haven't seen it, it doesn't mean that fight neither isn't good nor doesn't do well on its own. A lot of these clips present both by me and King_8 are relatively short, so the information you used to judge had to be from watching the series.

Finally, I fully admit foreknowledge of many of these series results in some bias, which in some cases helps and in others hurts. I will say that I made an effort to focus on the fights themselves and leave much of the context out. For example, if I had placed it in the context of the series, Light killing L would have lost a point because it wasn’t the end of the series, leading to a much more anticlimactic ending built from L’s successors. I will say that, when I see a fight scene from an anime I’m not familiar with, I tend to give it a lot of leeway and assume that everything going on has been justified in the previous narrative. That actually resulted in more points than I would have given your final selection otherwise.

I'm sure it would have been possible for me to establish context, though I think doing so goes beyond the bounds of this debate. I will say that the emotional moments are certainly harder to understand without context in the MHA and Fate Zero fights, though I think the main difference is that the pure sakuga of those two fights is strong, and I think you can glean something from the discussion between All Might and All For One regarding their backgrounds and motivations (harder to do with Kiritisugu and Kirei, but hey, that's Fate Zero for you).

It's not that I have a problem with a one-sided fight (going through a mental list, I think at least two of my favorites would be one-sided), it's that I have trouble capturing what makes this fight so great without the context. Based on your explanation, it probably warranted a better score, but I'd have to have that information going in to truly appreciate it. I actually did watch further, but I had trouble understanding what was happening. I've got a great deal of problems with Naruto as a series, but it does pull off some amazing fights without the need for that context (or finds a way to include it via more creative means, as with Kakashi vs. Obito). That works better for this kind of format, hence the higher scores for most of those fights.

And I think that's where we differ on this. I agree that there are a great deal of limitations when it comes to making selections like these in this kind of format. I think that's part of what makes these interesting - how well do these fights stand by themselves, rather than how do they stand with all the appropriate context included. I've seen a handful of anime fights that made me want to watch an anime, even if there are large swaths of it that I don't understand, because regardless of their ability to stand alone, they draw you in. This selection just didn’t do that for me.

Yeah, that was judged based on your not seeing the series. If one were to not see "My Hero Academia" for example, the clip of All Might vs All For One wouldn't have had much context, either (especially All For One's creating One for All, the source of All Might's power.) The same would be true for Kirei vs Kiritsugu, too. Not to mention, I posted the entire episode, so if you wanted more information on their relationships, you needed only watch a few minutes before, and/or a few minutes after. Furthermore, King_8 asked for the shortened versions of these fights/conflicts if available, so there was only so much either of us could've done.

Last, as per the description, either I or King_8 could've chosen a "one-sided fight"; hence I did. And this scene in particular is great because it wasn't that the chief members of the Iga Clan couldn't fight back against Gennosuke, they were too terrified. Unlike other "ninja series" *cough* Naruto *cough*, this series attempts to capture a realistic picture of the ninja, particularly their being clandestine. In other words, one didn't know what the other could do, until the other did it. So when Gennosuke reveals his technique, not only were they terrified by his demonstration, but they also had to figure out a way to use advantages and disadvantages to counter it. If you watch further, you would've seen Gennosuke's showing some cunning in his using the folly of his intended, Oboro-sama, to take advantage of Koshiro, her clansmen, gravely injuring him. It's classic conflict of duty and love.

It's unfortunate you didn't put much consideration into the natural limitations of these selections (that being neither I nor King_8 could've accounted for that which everyone else has seen.) Nevertheless, thank you for your participation.

Gennosuke vs. The Iga Clan: 5
This one’s the hardest to judge because I have no context for it (haven’t seen Basilisk). I’d say it probably wasn’t the best choice because it seems to build from some really integral relationships built up over the past 8 episodes. Maybe it’s just because I have seen the others, but I don’t think any of them required a build up or understanding of the series of events as much as this does. There’s also no payoff for a lot of the other characters being there. The scenes involving the usage of techniques are fascinating, and even for someone who’s not familiar, there’s a solid tension to the whole thing. This gets points for the sheer domination of Gennosuke’s technique as well, but there’s no real combat involved, so as fights go, it’s not as strong as many of the others on this list.

Total = 59

Con R3:

All Might vs All For One: 8
- Another great hype fight. Nothing incredible in terms of fight dynamics (though All Might really takes some interesting tactics, and the mind games in the fight are intriguing), but United States of Smash bumped this up a point. The fact that everyone was watching helped as well. I think what makes this fight great is what goes into it, and it’s meaning to the overall story, rather than the fight itself.

Yugi Moto vs. Atem: 8

- Doesn’t get any better than this for Yugioh, so good choice. There’s an incredible amount of strategy involved in this, and no weird, impossible plays like so many of the others. They frontloaded the Egyptian Gods, which removed their utility throughout the remainder of the game, but they do an incredible job going through the incredible gallery of cards that Yugi has used over the years. As an homage to the series, it’s about as amazing as it gets, and if it wasn’t for the basic limitations of a card-based combat system and the litany of comments from the peanut gallery, this would be getting more points.

Con R4:

Maito Gai vs. Uchiha Madara: 8
It’s a pretty solid display of incredible power from Gai, especially against an opponent that appeared nigh untouchable. There’s emotional stakes and some interesting and useful involvement from his allies. It’s nice to see the return of taijutsu vs. a slew of techniques, but it doesn’t really showcase Madara at his best in the series (not much in the way of eye techniques), and much as it pays off the Eight Gates, the fact that Gai survived this really cheapened its usage.

Con R1:

Light has L Killed: 10
- As far as mind games go, the whole back and forth between Light and L is one of the best in anime. This was exceptionally well done, with the only caveat being that it’s the end of L for the series. Not much else to say – it’s the gold standard for psychological battles.

Sarutobi Hiruzen vs Orochimaru: 6
- Certainly a dynamic fight with a lot of moving parts, though it dragged in places, and wasn’t particularly happy with the ending. I get what they were going for, but the Third’s final technique is kind of disappointing, and much as we got to see a lot of techniques, we didn’t get to see much of the former Hokages or Orochimaru’s capabilities (more from both came later).

Con R2:

Goku vs. Frieza: 6
- This one gets a point for sheer nostalgia but watching it through again reminds me how much this fight drags and repeats scenes. Much as it’s the most iconic fight of the series, it’s more iconic for the moment of Goku turning SSJ, and while some of the fighting is really epic and interesting before he gets his golden hair, and if it had just encompassed that, I think this would have gotten a 7 or an 8. After the transformation, it gets a lot less interesting to be honest, and the infamous “5 minutes” is frustrating.

Kirei Kotomine vs. Kiritsugu Emiya: 9
- So glad someone chose this, one of my absolute favorites. I love watching these two go at it, and especially watching Kiritsugu innovate his way through a fight with such a strong opponent. The only slam against it is that anticlimactic ending, which admittedly works with the series, but cuts off the fight before it ends. Short but incredibly sweet.

Saitama vs. Boros: 9
- In terms of just a knock down, drag out fight, I don’t think it gets much better than this. Getting to see Saitama do more than just kill something in one hit was exceptional, and much as this was a relatively simple fight (Boros just hits him with everything he has and keeps powering up, while Saitama is mostly just dodging or taking it), it’s awesome. That hit to the moon is just amazing.

Pro R4:

Akame vs. Esdeath: 6
Was never the biggest fan of this one. It has spectacle, and it’s nice to see Akame and Esdeath cut loose, but the sudden power boost from Akame comes out of nowhere and Esdeath just doesn’t come off as the utter badass she usually is. It’s a decent fight with awesome swordplay and some real stakes, but I’m not sure I’d even say it’s the best of the series, especially with an ending that I found strange, given the whole freezing time ability.

Kakashi vs. Obito: 10
Incredibly well-animated and with some amazing interplay between scenes from their childhood and the fight proper, I think this is either the best or one of the best fights from Shippuden. The choreography gives it an extra point, and I think the fact that this doesn’t have any massive spectacle gives it a leg up over other fights from the later Naruto series. It’s raw and unfiltered, involving some of the most basic and strategic skill display.

Total = 61

Pro R1:

Netero vs. Meruem: 8
- It’s a pretty awesome fight, if a little abbreviated and simple. Lots of techniques from Netero, just overwhelming strength and speed from Meruem. Really good display of 2 incredibly powerful characters.

Rock Lee vs. Gaara: 10
- What I would say is the best fight in Naruto and a contender for the best even when compared with Shipuuden. Good animation for the time, intense pitched fight between two largely unknown powerhouses with incredibly different styles of fighting, and some good emotional stakes thrown in. As a demonstration of what these two can do and who they are, it’s amazing. Iconic fight, to be sure.

Pro R2:

Ichigo vs. Aizen final fight: 4
- It’s not a bad fight, but it is all glitz and glamor without much else going for it. Ichigo at his coolest and calmest was, honestly, more boring than he should have been, and watching Aizen effectively eschew any mind games was frustrating.

Gon vs. Pitou: 7
- Generally great beatdown fight with some incredible set pieces. The power boost is one of the few that’s justified well by power system. It gets a slight step down from Netero vs. Meruem because it’s more simplistic – just a physical matchup.

Pro R3:

Luffy vs. Doflamingo: 7
- Certainly one of the better fights from One Piece, though this is more about moments than it is about the actual flow of the battle. Gear Four is incredible to watch, and Doflamingo is my favorite villain in the whole series, but beyond Doflamingo’s awakened Devil Fruit, this is really just a “let’s wait for Luffy’s power to come back” fight. It’s incredibly cool to watch, but it doesn’t have much meat to it.

Simply because I'm so used to debate.org on how people never vote on there which sucks and unlike debate.org, this site has a time frame you could put on voting (not to mention, more people vote here). I always put a month on all debates I make. Because to me, one month = plenty of time for a lot of people to vote. The more, the better. Or could there also be a negative effect of putting a long time frame on voting? Would the debate appear as non existent since other debates will appear above it? Just thought about that. But yeah that's why I always put one month.

@King_8:

Just curious: why do you set these voting periods for the extent of an entire month?

weeeeeeeeeb

Yeah you comment that on every anime debate so it seems as if that's what you really believe and that it's not a joke. Of course you decline my challenge and scream that it's a joke after confrontation, that's what they all say. Joke or not, it's overused so stfu commenting that everywhere being annoying you --- , not gonna call you any names. I could have made this comment much worse