Instigator / Pro
7
1574
rating
10
debates
80.0%
won
Topic
#1080
Bestiality should not be illegal in all cases
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
PsychometricBrain
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One day
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1435
rating
15
debates
33.33%
won
Description
Bestiality - Sexual intercourse between a human and a non-human animal
--Structure--
R1. Pro's case; Con's Case
R2. Pro Rebuttal; Con Rebuttal
R3. Pro Rebuttal & Summary ; Con Rebuttal & Summary
Round 1
Since the debate resolution clarifies that bestiality should be not be illegal in all cases, Pro wins by providing at least one case in which bestiality should not be illegal.
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Contention 1 – Argument from consent
If the sole reason why bestiality should be illegal is a lack of consent, then bestiality should be legal in all instances in which an animal can consent.
Research into great ape language has revealed that certain species such as gorillas can acquire sign language and use this to both request actions and answer questions [1]. The female gorilla ‘Koko’ for instance requested babies using sign language and was later given kittens as compensation [2], hence surely if an animal can explicitly communicate using language to this degree of complexity, this could be used to request intercourse or give consent by accepting intercourse. Therefore, in at least some cases bestiality should be legal as animal can consent. Furthermore, unless a male dog mounts a human female, it would be very difficult for engage in intercourse with a dog since these only engage in ‘doggy style’ intercourse without the opportunity of woman on top. Hence, while animals such as dogs could not explicitly communicate consent using language, initiating the sex themselves implies consent, and hence provides a further, more general, example of animal’s ability to consent to sexual intercourse with humans. A 2006 Danish Animal Ethics Council report further outlined that a) animals can give consent both through initiation of intercourse, as well as lack of protest (any pet owner will know that if their pet is not in the mood to be touched, it will simply walk away or possibly even growl and attack), b) bestiality can provide a pleasurable experience for both the human as well as the animal, which is further supported by the existence of homosexual relationships in most mammal species [3] that show that reproduction is not the sole role of sexual intercourse, and c) some non-human animals, among them dogs, show sexually attraction toward humans [4].
In conclusion, great apes that possess language abilities provide the clearest example of animals being able to give consent, however, male dogs mounting female humans are also a clear example of consent, while intercourse between male men and animals can still involve implied consent due to lack of protest by the animals.
Contention 2 – Lack of necessity
A law without a purpose would be futile, if beyond an appeal to consistency, the only other appeal is to possible harm to the animal, then a law against bestiality would be futile and should hence not exist. Denmark’s Animal Ethics Council opposed the introduction of an anti-bestiality law in Denmark in 2015 as “existing laws which allow bestiality except in cases where the animal can be proved to have suffered were enough” [4]. Similarly, in the United States, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 already establishes that “A person commits an offence if an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer” [5], hence explicitly criminalising bestiality would be futile as harm to the animal is already illegal. Therefore, bestiality should not be illegal as there are already laws in place that prevent harm to the animals.
A law without a purpose would be futile, if beyond an appeal to consistency, the only other appeal is to possible harm to the animal, then a law against bestiality would be futile and should hence not exist. Denmark’s Animal Ethics Council opposed the introduction of an anti-bestiality law in Denmark in 2015 as “existing laws which allow bestiality except in cases where the animal can be proved to have suffered were enough” [4]. Similarly, in the United States, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 already establishes that “A person commits an offence if an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer” [5], hence explicitly criminalising bestiality would be futile as harm to the animal is already illegal. Therefore, bestiality should not be illegal as there are already laws in place that prevent harm to the animals.
Furthermore, based on John Stuart Mill’s harm principle: “That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.” [6] Peter Singer has argued that bestiality is not unethical as long as it does not involve harm to the animal, and that the stigma associated with it is merely due to irrational speciesism [7]. In 1957, the Wolfenden Report cited the harm-principle as one of the primary arguments for legalising homosexual acts in the United Kingdom, which led to the 1967 Sexual Offences Acts in which homosexual acts have been legalised. Similarly, bestiality should be legalised as long as no harm comes to any external party and hence bestiality should not be illegal in all cases.
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In conclusion, neither an appeal to consent, nor an appeal to harm can justify the illegality of bestiality. An appeal to consent fails due to the explicit consent by great apes, implicit consent through intercourse initiation by animals and implicit consent through lack of protest by animals, which generally protest when uncomfortable such as dogs. An appeal to harm, on the other hand, fails due to harm to animals already being illegal and a bestiality law hence being futile, and possible discomfort to external parties not justifying the law as this would also affect homosexual acts.
Your arguments basically approach this from the animal side-- can the animal provide consent, is there harm to the animal, etc. Of the two parties involved, the animal and the human, primary importance should be given to the Human.
Consent = in simplest terms, "voluntarily agrees to the proposal or desires of another"
Pleasure = in simplest terms, a feeling happy satisfaction or enjoyment.
Selfish = an act that is concerned with the self only
Selfless = an act that is concerned not only with the self.
You submit much information and assume these to be "facts". The "jury is still out" on many of your assumed facts, such as the existence of homosexual relationships in other animals. Nonetheless, even if it were proven to be true, just because we see behavior exhibited in animals doesn't necessarily mean that same behavior should be accepted in the human species. Animals defecate on streets and sidewalks. The City of San Francisco notwithstanding, we would all agree that this behavior is not acceptable with humans. So
Contention 1 - the Koko and dog examples are fine and dandy, but just because an animal is able to use certain gestures, you can not be 100% sure that this is "consent", i.e. a voluntary response on the part of the animal to agree to the proposal or desire of the other.. The animal could still be operating out of "instinct", which is not voluntary.
1) Koko requesting Babies. I would not consider that an example of consent. My dog has been trained to ring a bell on the door when he wants to go outside. He nudge his nose at the bell when he wants to go outside because he equates the sound of a bell with going outside and chasing squirrels. Thus, whenever he hears another bell he rushes to the door. His behavior is more out of conditioning. Is Koko's behavior similar?
2) a) When the animal is "communicating" this way, is it responding to what's it been conditioned to or is it truly exhibiting a voluntary desire (i.e. not condition or instinct). I've seen dogs initiate intercourse with an embarrassed person's leg-- is that dog initiating consent (voluntary) or is it just responding by instinct to conditions within it's body and knows no other way but to hump what's alive nearby?
b) You are assuming it's "pleasurable" for the animal
3) c) THis is a very important. EVERY action has an objective, and some may have primary and secondary objectives. What are the objectives of Sexual Intercourse? Primary Objective is the propagation of the species. Secondary objective is the unification and pleasure of the members. When both the Primary and Secondary objectives are present, sexual intercourse is a selfless act-- when you open the sexual act to bringing a new member of the species, it is a self-less act. When you engage in sexual activity strictly for self-pleasure, it turns it into a selfish act. The habitual engagement in selfish acts, no matter what they are, is not good for a human society, a society in which members must work together for the betterment of each other and the society at large. Habitual selfishness is not healthy.
4) So? Just because an animal wants to do something with a human is not good enough reason for that act to be "legal". Some dogs want to maul humans-- should that be legal too?
Contention 2 - the only possible appeal is harm to the animal? Um, no. Sorry. You are making a huge assumption that having intercourse with a beast (animal) is healthy and would do no harm to the person. I would argue it's unhealthy, much like having sex with a tennis racket, a coke can, a machete, or any in other non-human object is unhealthy. Bestiality promotes/fosters "selfishness within the individual". Selfish is not healthy. Bestiality sets a bad example for other members of the Human Society (this is the "harm to others" part). Then there is just the flat-out physical harm that can occur with such acts.
The problem with Singer et al is that they fail to see the harm to others (Setting bad example, etc). To take Mill (and Singer's) philosophy a step further, one has to answer the questions, does the ACT (any act) impose harm to others, not just physical harm? I would argue, why is this speciesism "irrational", as Singer points out?
Round 2
Firstly I would like to point out that as per the debate structure, Con had to make a case in Round 1 and was not supposed to rebut until Round 2, however, he presented no case. Furthermore, he has done the same thing in our prior debate on this topic and has been made aware of this suggesting that he intentionally broke the debate rules again to gain an unfair advantage by preventing me from properly refuting his case, as it will not be presented until later.
“The "jury is still out" on many of your assumed facts, such as the existence of homosexual relationships in other animals”
I have not assumed this, in fact I have cited Bagemihl (2000) in support of this in Round 1 who has outlined that: “Homosexuality in its myriad forms has been scientifically documented in more than 450 species...”, hence homosexuality is clearly much more than “an assumed fact” and the jury is very much decided.
My opponent strawmans my homosexuality argument, he claims that I have asserted that homosexual behavior in animals means that it should also be accepted in humans. I have merely outlined that the existence of homosexual relationships in animals “show that reproduction is not the sole role of sexual intercourse” (Round 1), which it does and is entirely unaffected by Cons assertion as I derive no normative statement from this but merely use it to support a premise.
“The animal could still be operating out of "instinct", which is not voluntary.”
My opponent uses this to counter the Koko example and a similar “is that dog initiating consent (voluntary) or is it just responding by instinct” argument to counter the dogs.
In the case of Koko, the study I have cited in Round 1 outlined that “Koko also showed that she could interact effectively with other language-users and that she could invent gestures to facilitate her communication.”, the fact that Koko herself invented new gestures shows higher comprehension of the gestures than mere “instinct” or a trained response. In the case of dogs initiating intercourse, my opponent claims that the initiation could be involuntary. However, involuntary actions are defined by Wikipedia as “nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus”, initiation of sexual intercourse on the other hand is highly goal-directed (toward pleasure) behaviour that requires several steps and several minutes until the goal (orgasm) has been achieved, it must hence be a voluntary action.
My opponent makes a further minor claim that “you’re assuming its pleasurable for the animal”, I have supported this with a 2006 Danish Animal Ethics Council report as well in Round 1, hence it is not merely an assumption. Furthermore, Livescience.com writes “Not only do animals enjoy the deed, they also likely have orgasms, he said. They are difficult to measure directly but by watching facial expressions, body movements and muscle relaxation, many scientists have concluded that animals reach a pleasurable climax, he said.”, hence it is a well-supported claim, not merely an assumption, that sexual intercourse is pleasurable for animals.
Con goes on to argue that “habitual selfishness is not healthy” and that engaging in sexual activity “strictly for self-pleasure” is an example of selfishness. Firstly, not all zoosexual activity is based on pleasure, News24 reports the case of a man who divorced his wife due to being in love with his dog "It is amazing, but this husband is not crazy. It seems he is a passionate human being who looked at a dog, and the more he looked, the more passionate he became."[1], while this is certainly not a typical case, it shows that in at least some cases much more than pleasure is involved. Furthermore, Con’s argument can be carried to absurdity. If selfish acts ought to be illegal for the sake of protecting either society or the person’s health, then acts such as masturbation, binge eating, and pornography to name a few ought also to be illegal due to their potential of being “habitually selfish”. This is absurd and unfeasible for any justice system as it would become unenforceable due to the sheer magnitude of 'offences'
Con’s final claim is that “You are making a huge assumption that having intercourse with a beast (animal) is healthy and would do no harm to the person.” This is a further misrepresentation of my case, I have specifically cited Mill’s harm-principle which includes “His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.” which clarifies that my case does not rely on no harm being caused to the person themselves. The law ought not to be concerned with acts that involve no harm to anyone other than the parties that are willingly involved, Mill wrote that every person is the best judge of what will make them happy, who are we to force our view of what will make them happy on them in the absence of harm to others?
To conclude; Con has unsuccessfully attacked my case by arguing that 1) animals do not voluntarily consent, 2) animals do not enjoy bestiality and 3) bestiality harms the person engaging in it. These contentions have been addressed above and to fulfil his BoP, Con will have to present his case why bestiality should be illegal. We can debate whether bestiality can involve consent, but unless Con outlines why this is relevant for his case neither position supports his view.
In keeping with the bestiality theme, allow me to be the first to say, this is beginning to feel like Groundhog Day
Bestiality is not natural to humans. It's not., Sorry. I challenge you to argue that it is.
That's the primary reason for making it and keeping it illegal.
Before you continue with your Bagehimian Rhapsody (See what I did there?), suffice it to say that although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity. So called homosexual relationships in other animals does not prove sexual intercourse has another purpose. It, at best, highlights the fact that animals operate out of instinct and urges and do not have the capability to keep those urges in check.
You argue that my claims can be carried to absurdity. Likewise the claim or argument that bestiality should be legal can also be carried to absurdity.
But alas, suffice it to say this. Bestiality is not normal and does harm to the human person.
1) You have not proven that animals can, and do, provide consent. You've only taken observed behaviors and extrapolated those to mean they imply consent. And you have not ruled out acting on instinct.
2) Your Livescience.com claim does indeed imply that animals find pleasure in sex, but again, you are assuming they would find pleasure in having sex with humans.
3) There is a specific purpose to sex: the propagation of the species. That is the primary purpose.
4) Your claim "The law ought not to be concerned with acts that involve no harm to anyone other than the parties that are willingly involved, Mill wrote that every person is the best judge of what will make them happy, who are we to force our view of what will make them happy on them in the absence of harm to others?". No, sorry. Not buying it . Often times people are incapable of doing what is right, even if they KNOW they should. Addicts harm themselves because are simply unable to stop. Yes, it makes them happy . Should the law then be changed just because addicts "think they are happy?" Nope.
5) a human having sex with a non-human is not healthy. Replacing a healthy sexual encounter with a non-healthy sexual encounter sets a bad example to others.
Round 3
My R2 acts as my R3, and this R3 as my rebuttal of Con's case as he did not present it until R2.
Rebuttal of Con's case:
“Bestiality is not natural to humans. It's not., Sorry. I challenge you to argue that it is.That's the primary reason for making it and keeping it illegal.” - Con, Round 2
My opponent asserts that as bestiality is not natural to humans, it should be illegal. There are three issues with this position:
a) My opponent never explains why an act being unnatural implies it should be illegal, there simply is no connection between the two, hence my opponent’s argument is a non-sequitur, it simply does not follow that bestiality should be illegal simply because it is unnatural. Processed food is unnatural, surely that does not imply it should be illegal, engaging with technology is unnatural, however Con seems to have no issue with using modern technology. An act being unnatural does not imply it is bad or should be illegal.
b) Inter-species sex has been found to be natural in many species such as monkeys and deer [1], in fact, over 90 species have been identified by a 2008 literature review that did engage or attempted to engage in inter-species sex [2]. My opponent claims that it is “not natural to humans”, without backing this assertion up with any evidence. As many other mammal species that are closely related to humans engage in inter-species sex, there seems to be no reason to assume that humans are the exception. In fact, there are depictions of bestiality from the palaeolithic period [3] suggesting that bestiality is not a new phenomenon, followed by many further depictions during the Neolithic era [4]. Con has provided no evidence that bestiality is unnatural and in light of the common inter-species sex in other species and the long history of bestiality in humans, there seems to be no basis for assuming that it is.
c) Even if a) were overcome, and there was some legitimate reason why an act being unnatural implies that it should be illegal and b) were overcome to show that bestiality is indeed unnatural, this would not be a feasible or desirable criterion of illegality. Between 3.5% (females) and 8% (males) have reported having engaged in bestiality at least once, “Among men living in rural areas, the figure shot up to 50 percent.” [5] it would not be feasible to lock up between 3.5% and 8% of the population. Additionally, my opponent seems to believe that homosexual intercourse in humans is unnatural (inferred from his claims that “the jury is still out” in R2), which would doom a further 4.5% of Americans to criminal penalties [6]. Hence, due to the sheer number of ‘unnatural’ activities of humans in contemporary societies, it is neither a feasible nor an adequate standard of determining illegality.
To conclude, my opponent's case is based on bestiality being unnatural. I have shown in a) that it does not follow that an act being unnatural implies it should be illegal citing examples such as modern technology. In b) I have shown that even if a) were false, bestiality is more likely to be natural, rather than unnatural, in humans due to many other mammals similarly engaging in inter-species sex and the long history of bestiality in humans, and hence would not be affected by Con's criterion of legality. Finally, I have shown that even if both a) and b) were false, it would be unfeasible to implement Con's criterion of illegality both due to the commonness of bestiality itself and that of other unnatural behaviours such as the consumption of processed foods, rather than traditional palaeolithic foods. Hence, Con's case is neither sound (a), nor would it apply to bestiality (b), nor could it be implemented if it did apply to bestiality (c), hence his case falls to pieces and Con has outlined no further reason, other than it being 'selfish due to seeking pleasure' which has been addressed in my Round 2, why bestiality should be illegal and will not be able to do so in his final round as I would not be able to address this, hence Con failed to show that bestiality should be illegal in all cases.
Short defence of Round 2:
My opponent puts forward the primary contention that animals gain no pleasure from bestiality.
Firstly he asserts that homosexual animal relationships are merely superficial without backing this up with any evidence. This assertion is contradicted by ecological studies, 25% of black swans, for instance, are primarily homosexual and perform parenting duties together and also perform pre-marital rituals and greeting ceremonies, suggesting that it is not just 'urges' as Con claims. Con concedes that animals gain pleasure through sexual intercourse as well, but presumes that this would be different during bestiality, however, I have cited an article in R1 that shows that "bestiality can provide a pleasurable experience for both", contradicting his presumption that he did not back up with any evidence. Con's 4) and 5) have been addressed in the final two paragraphs of my R2.
Additionally, my opponent has entirely dropped my final argument of R2 that because we are currently not ascribing animals the right to life, the right to freedom of movement or even the right to access to their own mothers, a law prohibiting harmless (as harmful acts against animals are already illegal) bestiality would be inconsistent and unnecessary. Hence, Con either conceded this argument, or did not address this on purpose so that he could attempt to rebut it in his final round without me being able to respond to his rebuttal. This is the second instance in this debate where Con has disrespected the debate structure to gain a personal advantage.
1 - Animals can not make an informed decision.
2 - Just because an act occurs or is observed in the ANimal Kingdom is not justification for that behavior by humans.
a)- I strike your response (a) from the list. Having sex with an animal is not comparable with processing food. There is a distinction, so to ask the question "Well, why not ban other non-natural acts" is a distraction. Processed food provides a benefit to the person (sustains life) and society. Bestiality does no such thing, other than provide temporal pleasure.
b - I strike this response (b) from the list. You cite instances of animals engaging in inter-species sex. I refer you back to my points (1) and (2) above. Also, my earlier stance of just because we see something occurring in the animal kingdom is not justification for the same behavior in the Human world. Some animals kill their young, they defecate anywhere, etc. We are above the animals. Any reference to activity occurring in the animal kingdom is not justification for that same activity in the human world.
c) - Whether or not a society can handle the incarceration of criminals should not be a reason for whether or not an act should be legal or illegal. An act should be legal or illegal based on the act's impact to the individual and/or society, not based on whether or not the society can handle the consequences of it being illegal or not.
d) One report or study is not confirmation that animals derive pleasure from sex with humans. Furthermore, do not confuse "physical response" with pleasure. A person masturbating a horse might cause the horse to ejaculate. Just because this physical response occurs, doesn't necessarily equate to "pleasure". Who knows, maybe the horse feels regret and remorse after such an encounter? Of course, this all PRESUMES that animals have "feelings" as humans do.
Finally, I can challenge the claim that animals do not derive pleasure without providing evidence. It's not necessary for me to. You made the claim they do, and I challenged your arguments for that. Implying that I did not back up with evidence my presumption of no pleasure is irrelevant. That's akin to saying "You need to provide evidence they don't derive pleasure". No. NO I don't. You made the claim they do, and I challenged that claim and your arguments.
YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE: "Let's get some more kindness into this conversation."
How is that ungodly
Is WOA perma banned
I do not know. Remember, I am only a vote moderator - my authority doesn’t extend outside of this area.
Is it a permanent ban
Thats exactly what I was thinking
It’s a shame wisdom of ages is banned, I think BDT would get on like a house on fire
"YOUR GRASPING FOR STRAWS QUOT"
This is so funny
Senetencing people to hell isnt nice, As Jesus golden rule-Treat others the way you want to be treated. Do you want ME to sentence you to hell
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PsychometricBrain,
YOUR QUOTE: "Meaning that you choose to ignore the word of Jesus, in favour of your interpretation of how his modus operandi would operate on an internet forum?"
It doesn't have to be an "interpretation" because in how Jesus was LITERALLY shown to act. Get it? Reread the passages again.
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Meaning that you choose to ignore the word of Jesus, in favour of your interpretation of how his modus operandi would operate on an internet forum?
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TheAtheist,
YOUR QUOTE: "Your presence on this site is a very nice comic relief."
Barring the fact that you will be having extreme pain for eternity in the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your ungodly demise (Matthew 25:46), Jesus and I thank you for your comment that I provide comedy relief within this forum in the name of Jesus. If it takes comic relief to get the TRUE words of Jesus to Inept fake Christians, and Atheists like you, then whatever works will be held in high esteem.
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My previous comment was for you. Enjoy.
From now on, I’m just going to reply with your hilarious quotes.
“Let's do some simple math that even an Atheist can possibly understand, okay?”
“Playful statement”
“I cannot usurp Jesus' loving and forgiving doctrine where non-believers like you will be swimming in the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your demise.”
“2+2=4”
“YOUR REVEALING QUOTE”
Your presence on this site is a very nice comic relief.
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PsychometricBrain,
YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE: "Let's get some more kindness into this conversation."
I am truly sorry, but I will take Jesus' modus operandi of being very emotive when dealing with fake Christians and Hell Bound Atheists within this forum! Christians have been namby-pamby candy asses for far too long in their discussions with these ungodly fools, therefore when Jesus had enough of His creation that went against Him, he took action as shown in a few passages of many described below, praise Jesus' revenge!
JESUS SAID: "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM HERE AND SLAUGHTER THEM BEFORE ME. (Luke 19:27)
JESUS BEAT THE UNGODLY: “When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. SO HE MADE A WHIP OF CORDS, AND DROVE THEM FROM THE TEMPLE COURTS, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “GET THESE OUT OF HERE! STOP TURNING MY FATHER'S HOUSE NITO A MARKET! His disciples remembered that it is written: “ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME.” (John 2: 13-17)
JESUS' INSPIRED WORD STATED: "But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH, whether young or old, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)
As explicitly shown, Jesus is a man's man, praise!
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TheAtheist,
Let's do some simple math that even an Atheist can possibly understand, okay? You stated that I allegedly "roasted the hell out of you," where this playful statement is LITERALLY not an option in reality because I cannot usurp Jesus' loving and forgiving doctrine where non-believers like you will be swimming in the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your demise. 2+2=4.
Both Red Eye Satan, of which is an apropos picture for you, AND Hell-Bound Atheist are applicable to you as a Hell Bound Atheist.
YOUR REVEALING QUOTE" " I’ll let you know when I’ll start smelling sulfur, it should be soon since I have just insulted your lord."
Yes, you will surely know when my ever loving and forgiving Jesus plans on ending your earthly existence, and that is by you starting to smell sulfur, praise Jesus' revenge! As shown below, there is no need for you to have any dental work from this time forth, because where you are going after death, you will be gnashing your teeth!
“The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42)
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Ephesians 4:31, NKJV. "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."
Let's get some more kindness into this conversation.
Wow. I haven’t laughed so hard in months. Thanks for roasting the hell out of me.
Which name do you think suits me better, Red Eye Satan or Hell-bound Atheist?
Also, God isn’t real and Jesus was a fraud who never rose from the dead. I’ll let you know when I’ll start smelling sulfur, it should be soon since I have just insulted your lord.
YOUR QUOTE: "Your insults are so pathetic that they are actually hilarious."
Listen up Red Eye Satan, Jesus has inspired me to bring forth the meaningful and truthful quotes that I do, therefore, they are in no way "Pathetic." In easily dealing with the myriad of fake Christians upon this forum, these assumed "Hilarious" quotes just come naturally, thank you Jesus!
Jesus and I have a great task within this forum, where 99.9999999% of the assumed Christians try in vain to rewrite His TRUE words, as explicitly shown with the ever so inept GuitarSlinger, therefore these people will be corrected in His name, praise!
DebateArt Christians, other than myself, of course, are guilty of the following inspired by Jesus verse, to wit: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
With you being a Hell Bound Atheist upon DebateArt, and in the name of Jesus, let me know when you start smelling sulfur, okay? This will be the time for you to start wearing asbestos suits, do you understand?
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I seriously want for someone to make a book with all your quotes. I would pay to read it.
"YOUR GRASPING FOR STRAWS QUOTE"
"I will have to Bible Slap you"
"Lame excuses that you Satanically used"
"Jesus will spring the trap doors to the sulfur lakes of Hell in your behalf"
"At this time, you are bringing a Boy Scout pocket knife to my Abrams M-1 fully loaded tank."
Your insults are so pathetic that they are actually hilarious.
GuitarSlinger,
YOUR GRASPING FOR STRAWS QUOTE RELATIVE TO MY POST #53: "Um, actually, no. no you didn't lol. I just re-read your post #53 and you provided comments, but you didn't answer the question. All you did was asked other questions."
GS, what part of me saying in the 3rd paragraph of my post #53 "Addressing your question ...." and then taking the points of your question to bear, didn't you understand? You are a terrible example for spreading the TRUE word of our Jesus the Christ, as you run away from His TRUE teachings in silence, and with the lame excuses that you Satanically used. What is more disturbing, is seemingly that you don't have the sense to feel embarrassed about this fact!
You are a Burger King Christian, where you want your bible your way, instead of Jesus' way, and if you don't change and accept the fact of Jesus' TRUE modus operandi, then I wouldn't want to be you upon Judgment Day where are Jesus will spring the trap doors to the sulfur lakes of Hell in your behalf.
I actually feel sorry for you, therefore, I am going to do you a great favor, in that the link below provides you with a great online READING COMPREHENSION class that you drastically need to take in order for you not to be made the Catholic fool again in front of DebateArt. Subsequent to you taking this needed class, look me up and we'll discuss your pagan Catholic faith once again, okay? At this time, you are bringing a Boy Scout pocket knife to my Abrams M-1 fully loaded tank. Do you understand? Sure you do.
https://www.universalclass.com/i/course/reading-comprehension-101.htm
If you have the audacity to continue this discussion, then I will have to Bible Slap you Silly once again. In other words, know when to quit to save further embarrassment, not only for yourself, but towards the members of DebateArt.
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**Oh my, I have already addressed this in my post #53 **
Um, actually, no. no you didn't lol. I just re-read your post #53 and you provided comments, but you didn't answer the question. All you did was asked other questions.
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GuitarSlinger,
Addressing your post #60:
YOUR LOSING CREDIBILITY QUOTE: "hey sorry-- your posts/comments ar etoo long winded. lol"
I am so sorry that you can't comprehend more than a few sentences at a time. Have you tried to get help in a high school reading comprehension class of late? Yes? If you are going to represent Jesus, then I can only assume that you can't read more than one paragraph at a time within the Bible, how sad and embarrassing is that? LOL!
YOUR ADDITIONAL LOSING CREDIBILITY QUOTE: "Sorry-- Jesus does not say "follow the OT". Supply that verse where he says that."
What didn't you understand in that I am not here to hold a Christian Bible Class for inept Catholics like yourself? Jesus and I are embarrassed for you in that you don't know where this very important passage exists within His scriptures. Then, you want to call yourself a Christian, surely you jest! It is up to you to seek out this passage for a learning process of searching the Bible on your own, in that you can use later, understood? Surely you don't want me to "hold your hand in schooling you again" about our Jesus' TRUE modus operandi, do you?
+++ GuitarSlinger, if you have gotten this far with your lack of reading comprehension, then take a break and come back later to continue, okay? +++
YOUR REPEATABLE QUOTE : "Do you believe that God’s plan for us was to live in paradise worry-free in complete harmony with all creation but evil invaded God’s plan and through man’s complicity with that evil we turned from God and lost paradise?"
Oh my, I have already addressed this in my post #53 within this thread. Obviously you really do need help in quick reading comprehension, therefore, can you get another Catholic to help you out in this respect? To save further embarrassment, report back when you do, okay? Thanks.
Jesus and I will be awaiting at least a "Try" on your part to my posts to you above. Thanks.
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I was originally hoping someone else would accept the other debate and to hold both simultaneously, I was unpleasantly surprised when I saw that he accepted the debate again. This debate includes about 20% more argument from me so it isn't a perfect duplicate, although it is quite similar.
It must have already been addressed, but why are there two of these? And are they true duplicates?
hey sorry-- your posts/comments ar etoo long winded. lol
Sorry-- Jesus does not say "follow the OT". Supply that verse where he says that.
Do you believe that God’s plan for us was to live in paradise worry-free in complete harmony with all creation but evil invaded God’s plan and through man’s complicity with that evil we turned from God and lost paradise?
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GuitarSlinger,
Addressing your post #56:
YOUR COMICAL AND SELF DEFEATING QUOTE: "You are modifying your questions after I answer them."
You are becoming what you are allegedly against, HELLO? Look at your previous posts, do you see that you did not answer my questions with a simple yes or no, even if you could, but continued to extrapolate upon them with additional information like I did with yours, that needed further explanation, huh? Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C? Sure you can! LOL!!!
YOUR SUBJECTIVE SICKENING QUOTE: "After I answer you act is if I would be all chummy-chummy with the priest and shake his hand after Mass, etc. No, I never said I would do that. I would attend a different Catholic Church then the criminal priest. I would also be a loud voice demanding the Bishop and Local authorities hold this priest accountable. But no, I would not leave the Church."
Therefore, if your innocent child was RAPED by a priest, you would leave the Catholic Church where the pedophile priest was present, and attend another pagan Catholic Church, all the time knowing that your child would have to endure another priest?! How do you think your child would feel in knowing that the sight of another priest may be another possible RAPE in the future? Subjectively, this logically would be considered "Child Abuse" on your part! BLASPHEME!
YOUR QUOTE: "Thanks for playin'"
Do you seriously think that when I easily make you the outright hypocrite to your Catholic Faith, and showing you that you RUN AWAY from it when additional relative information is imposed, and in making you the fool for being a member of said church that COVERUPS your pedophile priest problems, is enjoyable for me? I DO NOT consider this to be "Playin,'" but to only show you how inept you truly are regarding your pagan Catholicism.
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You gonna vote on this? You got that "I vote on every debate" thing to consider. Oh man I feel for ya. Nasty debate lol.
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GuitarSlinger,
YOU RUNNING AWAY FROM YOUR FAITH QUOTE: "You can insult all you want, doesn't bother me. Just to clarify, my questions are simple "Yes" or "No" questions. lol. You don't need to convolute the issue by throwing in a whole bunch of other stuff. Just answer the questions as "yes" or "no" if you are able."
You did not imply that your questions were to be Yes or No! If the additional biblical information relative to your questions that I have given you is embarrassing for you to address, then just say so, where it is just that simple, okay?! Always remember though, Jesus is watching you RUN AWAY from additional relative biblical information to your questions as you "wussy out" in addressing same! How embarrassing for you in front of the eyes of our Jesus and the members of DebateArt!
Jesus' inspired word to you RUNNING AWAY from relative additional information pertaining to your questions are as follows: "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)
You are no more a TRUE Catholic than the burning in Hell Christopher Hitchens! How embarrassing for you once again.
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YOu asked a specific question-- have I ever had a garage sale or bake sale to help the Church pay for stuff like that. Simple answer is "no". I've never had a garage sale or bake sale lol
You are modifying your questions after I answer them. YOu asked if I would leave the church if one of my kids were raped by a priest. No. After I answer you act is if I would be all chummy-chummy with the priest and shake his hand after Mass, etc. No, I never said I would do that. I would attend a different Catholic Church then the criminal priest. I would also be a loud voice demanding the Bishop and Local authorities hold this priest accountable. But no, I would not leave the Church.
Thanks for playin'
You can insult all you want, doesn't bother me. Just to clarify, my questions are simple "Yes" or "No" questions. lol. You don't need to convolute the issue by throwing in a whole bunch of other stuff. Just answer the questions as "yes" or "no" if you are able.
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GuitarSlinger,
++++ THIS IS THE 4TH TIME YOU HAVE BEEN IN SILENCE TO WHERE IN THE BIBLE JESUS SAYS TO FOLLOW THE OLD TESTAMENT! ++++
This embarrassing act by you, where your silence is deafening upon this topic, can only surmise that you agree that Jesus states we are to follow the Old Testament writings today. Thank you for finally coming around to biblical axioms, praise Jesus! Now, our conversations from this time forth will change in a direct godly way subsequent to your above admittance to follow the Old Testament.
JESUS’ INSPIRED WORD STATES: "If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:15-16)
Therefore, on the topic of your debate regarding Beastility and what our Jesus’ inspired word states should be done to anyone that involves themselves with this ungodly act, how should these people be murdered? Any ideas? Here is the fly in the ointment that determines your response: Peter said: "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)
To save yourself further embarrassment here at DebateArt, DO NOT propose the spiritual warfare notion because our Jesus operated at a time of actual murdering His creation when they got out of line. ie, The Great Flood, Plagues, The first born of Egypt, etc.
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GuitarSlinger,
YOUR QUOTED QUESTION TO ME: “Next question: Do you believe that God’s plan for us was to live in paradise worry-free in complete harmony with all creation but evil invaded God’s plan and through man’s complicity with that evil we turned from God and lost paradise?”
First thing, could you please give our God respect and call Him by his actual name of Jesus? Okay? The term “God” is a title of many other gods that existed at the time of our Jesus. Get it, show respect!
Addressing your question: How are we to live in harmony in our 1400 square mile paradise with its 60 foot high walls (Heaven) when our Jesus, through the Abrahamic connection of Judaism and Islam, allows Jews and Muslims into our paradise? The Jews laugh at our Jesus in being the son of Himself, or that He is Yahweh god incarnate! The Muslims despise our Jesus, and call Him a LIAR! Now what?
Furthermore, since our Jesus created EVIL in the first place, how could it not evade His plan in a detrimental way over time where he was the harbinger of letting it happen? Thats like a fireman setting a house fire, and then showing up to put it out!
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.”
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/45/7/ss1/t_conc_724007
How is paradise lost when Jesus’ stated with specificity that anyone that believes in Him will have paradise upon their death? Seemingly, there is no incentive not to sin, praise! “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)
GuitarSlinger, as you can see, in myself being a TRUE Christian that reads ALL of our Jesus’ bible, it is very hard to align His word with todays morals, laws, and acceptances.
Awaiting your cogent response this time, okay? Thanks.
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GuitarSlinger,
Addressing your embarrassing post #49.
YOUR BIASED LAUGHABLE QUOTE: “I believe in Spiritual Warfare. Since Catholicism is the one true Church, then it makes perfect sense that Satan would attack the priests. Satan's plan is for us to stray and leave the Church. Why are you doing Satan's bidding? lol”
Satan would attack the priests by letting them RAPE INNOCENT CRYING CHILDREN BY THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS???! Then in equal applicable proportions, where was our Jesus in stopping Satan from doing this ungodly act?! Are you alluding to our Jesus being WEAK by letting Satan do this to the priests?! OMG, you better get in prayer tonight with our Savior to repent in calling Jesus a WEAK God!
YOUR QUOTE: “The Church is made up of human members capable of making mistakes and sins, some of them grave. Hell, the first Pope, Peter, even betrayed Christ. By the way, all the priests I know dont' do those things.”
A Catholic Priest doesn’t know that it is a MISTAKE TO BUGGER INNOCENT CRYING CHILDREN? Are you kidding us? Really? This is your position upon this disgusting topic? It matters not on what Peter did in the past, this is NOW where you have to attend church knowing that a dark cloud is hanging over your pagan Catholic faith now and into the future. BLASPHEME!
YOUR QUOTE: “I'm not proud of the Sexual scandal within the Church. But again, the Church has had scandal since day 1. And yet, it persists, as Christ promised. He said He would not let the gates of Hell prevail against His Church. Rest assured, the Catholic Church will weather this current scandal, and will remain standing, as it is build upon solid rock, as Christ promised.”
Your pagan church will only stand by its totally inept following that can put up with your CHILD BUGGERING PRIESTS IN THE NAME OF JESUS, where godly logical Catholics are leaving your church in droves!
https://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=crmas&p=CATHOLICS+LEAVING+THEIR+CHURCH
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GuitarSlinger,
Addressing your post #50.
MY QUESTION TO YOU: Have you ever held a garage or bake sale in your community to help your Catholic Church raise money to pay off its dept to society for your disgusting pedophile priests buggering innocent scared and screaming children?
YOUR RESPONSE TO SAID QUESTION: “Nope.”
WHAT?! If you can accept your pedophile priests SCREWING INNOCENT AND SCARED CRYING CHILDREN, why wouldn’t you help out in gaining money reparations to help resolve lawsuits? How can you be considered a TRUE Catholic without helping your church in this manner?!
Are you calling Jesus’ inspired word LIES? “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28)
MY QUESTION TO YOU” Would you leave your ungodly pagan Church if one of your innocent children were violently raped by your priest, whereas this child has this disgusting memory for life?
YOUR DESPICABLE ANSWER: “ Nope. Why not? Because I don't blame the Church for the action of the priest. Plus I thoroughly understand SPiritual warfare …… ”
The church and the pedophile priests are one and the same, HELLO? Like the Pope and the church are synonymous! So, if your priest knowingly RAPED your child, and the forgiveness doctrine by Jesus is used, then you could shake this pedophile priests hand on your departure of the church after its Sunday morning proceedings????!
Are you comfortable with our Forgiveness Doctrine in that the despicable Catholic Priests that RAPED INNOCENT SCARED AND CRYING CHILDREN IN FRONT OF JESUS (HEBREWS 4:13) will be in Heaven awaiting your presumed arrival?
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4. Have you ever held a garage or bake sale in your community to help your Catholic Church raise money to pay off its dept to society for your disgusting pedophile priests buggering innocent scared and screaming children? Nope.
5. Would you leave your ungodly pagan Church if one of your innocent children were violently raped by your priest, whereas this child has this disgusting memory for life? Nope. Why not? Because I don't blame the Church for the action of the priest. Plus I thoroughly understand SPiritual warfare. I understand that I am a member of the one true Church. And Satan's plan is for me to leave this Church, and Satan is active every day trying to get me (us) to disavow and leave the Church. THe life of Catholic Christian is filled with struggle and suffering, just as Christ's life was. There is going to be suffering...unimaginable suffering. But, what Christ promises is that if we perceive and never leave Him, we will be rewarded.
Next question: Do you believe that God’s plan for us was to live in paradise worry-free in complete harmony with all creation but evil invaded God’s plan and through man’s complicity with that evil we turned from God and lost paradise?
TIT FOR TAT:
1. Why do you continue to support the on going pedophile priest problem within your pagan Catholic Church by being a continued member?
I believe in Spiritual Warfare. Since Catholicism is the one true Church, then it makes perfect sense that Satan would attack the priests. Satan's plan is for us to stray and leave the Church. Why are you doing Satan's bidding? lol
2. How can you continue in being a Catholic when it is on record that your church COVERED UP pedophile priests raping screaming innocent children for decades upon decades? WWJD? The Church is made up of human members capable of making mistakes and sins, some of them grave. Hell, the first Pope, Peter, even betrayed Christ. By the way, all the priests I know dont' do those things.
3. Are you proud that your church has paid out 4 BILLION, and counting, of the members hard earned money as reparations to the children and families because of pedophile priests sexual abuse of innocent children? I'm not proud of the Sexual scandal within the Church. But again, the Church has had scandal since day 1. And yet, it persists, as Christ promised. He said He would not let the gates of Hell prevail against His Church. Rest assured, the Catholic Church will weather this current scandal, and will remain standing, as it is build upon solid rock, as Christ promised.
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GuitarSlinger,
Is there any update to you finding within the scriptures that Jesus proposed that the TRUE Christian is to follow the Old Testament Writings? You have Satanically evaded this question for a long time thus far. What is the reason for this silence?
HINT: Remember, when Jesus spoke of following the word of Himself, as God incarnate, it was only the Old Testament writings that were available at the time of Jesus, get it?
Still waiting.
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PsychometricBrain,
In answer to your post #44, Guitarslinger is in fact supporting his Catholic Pedophilia problem by just being a member of the church and adding to the offering plate on Sunday mornings! 2+2=4. This is barring the adage of "Guilt by Association." If one is a member of the Democratic Party, are they not supporting the party that they have joined in every way? You cannot pick out which parts of Catholicism you like, without accepting the whole of what it truly represents!
Yes, it is hard being "civilized" when discussing the TRUE MODUS OPERANDI of the pagan Catholic Church relative to their pedophile priests and the eventful coverups of same, isn't it? I am disrespectful to guitarslinger? Yes, and rightfully so! Jesus has told me to do what is right when it concerns His teachings, therefore the Catholic Church will for ever be exposed regarding their pedophile priests AND COVERUPS! "For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man." (2 Corinthians 8:21)
I am sorry that you do not like my MO within DebateArt that follows Jesus' emotive ways of dealing with His creation. (John 2:13-16)
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St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) has outlined that Divine Law (i.e. the Law that has been revealed by God) which the holy Scripture is a part of, outranks the law of nations (to clarify Acts 5:29) . Hence anyone who accepts Leviticus 20:15-16 would not further require a law of nations to clarify that bestiality is against the law.
It may even be perceived as disrespectful toward God to suggest that his Divine Law requires the replication in our laws of nations to be recognised as valid.
I'm perfectly content with arguing that there is no need for bestiality to be illegal in human laws.
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PsychometricBrain,
YOUR QUOTE: " ..... it is merely about whether there should be a law prohibiting bestiality ...."
There is a godly law that Jesus has set forth as being Yahweh God incarnate, and it is the following:
"If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:15-16)
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29). 2+2=4.
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I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church myself, but let's try to keep this comment section a bit more civilised. Your loaded questions implying that Guitar is intentionally supporting paedophilia and part of "an ungodly church" come across quite disrespectfully.
"In all things you yourself must be an example of good behavior. Be sincere and serious in your teaching." (Titus 2:7)
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)
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Guitarslinger,
YOUR QUOTE: "Question #1: Do you believe in God and that he created everything out of nothing for no other reason other than the fact that he loves us?"
Learn a very simple notion, and that is when a Christian states to someone if they believe in God, then state which God you are talking about, okay? There're many Gods of the Iron, Bronze, and Middle Ages, understood? Besides, there is Allah and Yahweh of Islam and Judaism that are also remaining in the 21st Century. Get it?
1. Yes, I believe in Jesus the Christ as our Jewish Yahweh God incarnate, whereas we as the followers of Jesus have to be Jews no matter what sect we have chosen.
2. Yes, Jesus as our Jewish God created all things, whereas in part, He created terrible genetic diseases, but we accept this and live on.
3. No, Jesus does not love all of His creation as explicitly shown within the Bible where he had to murder many of them in horrific ways, but a TRUE Christian has to accept this and move on the best way we can.
TIT FOR TAT:
1. Why do you continue to support the on going pedophile priest problem within your pagan Catholic Church by being a continued member?
2. How can you continue in being a Catholic when it is on record that your church COVERED UP pedophile priests raping screaming innocent children for decades upon decades? WWJD?
3. Are you proud that your church has paid out 4 BILLION, and counting, of the members hard earned money as reparations to the children and families because of pedophile priests sexual abuse of innocent children?
4. Have you ever held a garage or bake sale in your community to help your Catholic Church raise money to pay off its dept to society for your disgusting pedophile priests buggering innocent scared and screaming children?
5. Would you leave your ungodly pagan Church if one of your innocent children were violently raped by your priest, whereas this child has this disgusting memory for life?
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This is not a pro-bestiality or con-bestiality debate, it is merely about whether there should be a law prohibiting bestiality, which I believe I have shown to be entirely unnecessary.
It is illegal to be Pro-bestiality in my country. I will not be voting on this debate due to bias.
I'm going to ask you some questions, and just answer the questions as asked, no need to provide superfluous answers, insults etc lol. Insults don't bother me, but I find when someone throws a lot of insults it's usually because they can't defend their position and have no other recourse. So if you can't answer the question, just say so-- I won't hold it against ya (and humility can be quite good for the soul ;-) )
Question #1: Do you believe in God and that he created everything out of nothing for no other reason other than the fact that he loves us?
Hey Let me knwo when you want to debate. Seems like you're a broken saying the same thing oer and over again. Its apparent you have no understanding of the Catholic faith. I'd be happy to educate you and inform you.
An organization may have some bad members, but that doesn't mean the whole organization is bad. A thieving bank teller doesn't mean the entire Bank is bad, does it? Nope.
What if their church does not have a sex abuser as a priest?
The Trinity is God and Jesus. Checkmate
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Alec,
YOUR QUOTE: "I'm not catholic, but Catholics despise sex abusing priests."
It matters not whether one is a disgusting pagan Catholic or not, but what does matter is if an actual Catholic despises sex abusing priests, then they should NOT SUPPORT raping pedophile priests by leaving this primitive thinking church altogether, and most of all, not giving to the offering plates on Sunday mornings that help pays for over 4 BILLION and counting in reparations to families of child sexual abuse and coverups of same!
CATHOLICISM, ONE OF THE MOST DESPICABLE FAITHS OF MANKIND!
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