So, wait a minute, Ali vs who?
If you're not a huge fan of boxing, it's possible you barely know most heavyweight boxers despite them being at the height of their sport. Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson are two examples of boxers who became famous for reasons other than their boxing. In a way, both are infamous but with Ali you can argue it's positive fame as well. His arrogance is a main reason he got famous and as an arrogant guy myself, I don't hate him for that but while he a legendary Black History and Pro-Islamic icon, as a boxer he was just 'one of the greats' and deep down I think even he would admit that others surpassed him, perhaps even directly due to their humility.
Ali was a forceful persona on the industry and less notorious but equally (if not more) skilled and refined boxers like George Foreman (who Ali did defeat, as did Holyfield but look at his overall record) and Evander Holyfield, who came later and never got to face off with Ali, didn't get as much limelight. Ali is a legend, there is no denying that but he was a legend for his notoriety and his boxing skills were simply so impressive because back then boxing wasn't a properly 'solved' sport and people were still figuring out how to stretch the movements so that the only way for your opponent to hurt you back would be them breaking the rules or letting you hurt them differently.
Holyfield came an entire era later than Ali, where the only one of the 'oldies' left in the game was George Foreman who lost to Holyfield despite holding his own with almost every single other new age heavyweight in the game. I seek to assert that the true master of war and boxing is Holyfield and that Ali didn't understand the strategies as deep as Holyfield nor could he apply it as well either.
The artful dodger meets the endurance-heavy counter-strategist.
Ali is an artful dodger, he is a master of footwork and ensuring his opponent wastes a lot of effort in landing big bad heavy hits which is why I think he also could handle Mike Tyson and be one of the few who could go up against the monster who could break your ribs through your arms guarding them with his ferocious hits. Holyfield defeated Tyson twice and is similar to Ali in specialising in ensuring the opponent wastes effort but he does it very differently.
I will like to observe some footage and explore how it is that both Ali and Holyfield bring the opponent to a state of tiredness and who actually erodes the opponent properly while the other relies on the opponent being an aggressive fool. Ali's record is 'better' than Holyfield's because he is from an era where his edge was far bigger as the average boxer came in more aggro and less good with footwork and timing than modern times (this is just a plain fact, coaches got better over time as did the average boxer and it's agreed in the resolution). Holyfield was up against better boxers as time went on, Holyfield's average opponent became Ali's 'very hard' opponent. Both had a similar tier of what's an easy and very hard opponent but the average became better over time, for sure.
Let's go into what I call 'counter-strategy' and is something Ali never bothered with practising as perhaps his brain itself was better built for being 'sneaky'. Holyfield fights with an adaptive strategy where he aims to hit you back if you hit him and he blocks it but if you miss, he will often not necessarily bother to hit you back but save effort for later. This is both a good strategy for ensuring you end up the better scored fighter at the end of 12 rounds and also a better strategy if against a heavy 'I must knock you out' type fighter to ensure they not only never do but that you hurt them to a point where they are forced to become a patient fighter like you and are totally out of their comfort zone.
Evander Holyfield vs George Foreman Highlights:
Please, if you don't have 10 minutes on hand, feel free to skip through but please do so to see once every Round. Holyfield truly planned out every Round. He has 29 wins by knockout but only 14 wins by judgement, so he knows how to knock you out into victory but here is why I am certain that he never has in his plan a 'need' to knockout. Ali was equally difficult to knockout and on paper has a much better record, even in modern times you get people who intentionally pick fights where they have an edge and can have a 50-2 record even as a heavyweight but this is about opponents and quality of the fights too.
Holyfield drove Tyson to be knocked out in their first fight and then to get him disqualified, he knows how to make someone who normally feels completely in control and is a legend to boxing (Tyson, Foreman) at least panic quite a bit and break out of their usual strategy. Here is a loss he has to a 50-2 boxer who indeed is fantastic in a different way and picked easy opponents usually, Holyfield being an exception.
Highlights of Holyfield vs Valuev:
Valuev is usually a type who arranges a fight with a clearly inferior opponent and in exchange for beating them nice and easy, he gives them 'fame' and a 'boost' in their career for having been vs him on camera. Holyfield managed to arrange this as one of his final fights as Valuev had a stigma of being a 'career' fighter. It's important to note that this fight was towards the end of both men's careers, neither at their physical peak. What I want you to do is watch how Holyfield is doing his typical 'bait out shots' 'go in when the other has somewhat tired themselves'. Since his opponent is also patient and passive (very unusual for Valuev, who usually is like this:
https://youtu.be/DPC8PXyTDwE?t=52) as Valuev knew that it's the safest way to handle Holyfield, it went on and on and in the end the judges gave the slight win to Valuev (as very disputed decision amongst fans, including me).
So, the point I'm trying to make is Holyfield only generally loses against opponents who abuse the fact that Holyfield came from a Light Heavyweight beginning, soon pushign to become Cruiserweight ('medium heavyweight') and then to 'heavyweight'. He was a champion in both Cruiserweight and Heavyweight and while his record only makes him a 4.4:1 ratio fighter, you need to analyse the quality of opponents he was against and how close his losses were too. This guy was nearly never in a fair fight physically towards the end of his career. Tyson was an absolute monster in physical comparison yet Holyfield held his own because he is extremely analytical to the tiny edges to gain and how to tire an opponent out. He never ever takes the bait, whether in the arena or outside. He knows how to be a calm fighter in all areas of life and in a way this is why he didn't end up being so notorious or famous despite having the potential to milk the 'Tyson bit my ear' thing and become a well known face.
If both were at their prime, but maintained their older-year wisdom, I believe Ali would lose to Holyfield simply because Ali's entire style needed, and I mean absolutely relied on, the opponent getting desperate and/or angry. Holyfield consistently is neither, he is a calm and strategic fighter who simply focuses on winning by well-timed strikes and well-placed not just well-timed, hits at crucial moments that give him 29 knockouts against opponents, 14 wins by judgement and 1 disqualification as Tyson was a maniac.
Ali has the personality traits that would indeed result in him thinking 'omg I gotta DO SOMETHING' and as the fight went on, Ali would either get desperate or lose by judgement because his specialty was dodging and baiting and Holyfield doesn't fall for either but is still 'going even' into such a style as his style is about analysing the opponent's spacing and style of punching and consistently blocking it to hit back or dodging a powerful one to simply tire them when needed.
I will leave you with this video and come in much stronger next Round, as Holyfield would, where I take on my opponent's reasoning.
Thanks for the clarification.
I mean Con's case is false but that is irrelevant. I genuinely believe in Holyfield winning but I don't care to debate this anymore.
Yes, I will put full effort into it. My case will run along the lines that he either would be an agent approved by the UN or that he'd essentially not apply to human law and that there's a lot about a world where Santa is real that isn't so straightforward to refuse to take into account such that we say all would stay the same law-wise and policy-wise.
Oh really?
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1131