Instigator / Pro

semperfortis

1684

rating

debates

100.0%

won

Topic

#1035

It is likely that a God doesn't exist

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 7 votes and with 23 points ahead, the winner is...

semperfortis

Tags

Religion

Parameters

Publication date: 06.07.2019 12:22PM
Last updated date: 06.17.2019 06:16PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One day
Max argument characters: 30,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

GuitarSlinger

1435

rating

debates

33.33%

won

Description

Burden of Proof

The BoP is shared in this debate.

Definitions

"God" is defined as "being the creator of the universe and possessing the following attributes:

-Omnipotence (has the power to do anything)
-Transcendence (outside space-time)
-Omniscience (has unlimited knowledge)"

"Exist" is defined as "having objective reality, insofar as existing outwith the mind."

Format of the Debate

R1: Opening arguments
R2-3: Rebuttals and defence
R4: Rebuttals without new arguments

Round 1

semperfortis

06.07.2019 05:08PM

Pro

Prologue

Thanks for accepting. My opening argument will be short and sweet.

== Aff ==

Occam's Razor

This is a form of ontological parisomony which deems a competing theory a priori most likely if that theory has less ontological commitments than the other theory. [1] If two theories X and Y have the same ontological commitments, but X is ontologically commited to Z and Y is not, it would deem Y as more parsimonious than X.

Thus, my argument is frameworked by Theism versus Metaphysical Naturalism. Metaphysical Naturalism has two ontological commitments: the physical universe and the laws that govern the universe. Whereas, Theism has three ontological commitments: the physical universe, the laws that govern the universe and God.

Hence, the theory sans the inclusion of God is deemed a priori most likely.

Thus, the resolution is upheld as the contrapositive would dictate if the theory not including God is likely, then it would logically entail that the theory including God is unlikely.

Over to Con.

References

[1] plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/

GuitarSlinger

06.08.2019 05:08PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 2

semperfortis

06.08.2019 05:14PM

Pro

Extend.

GuitarSlinger

06.08.2019 05:58PM

Con

Ah yes, Occam’s Razor.   A razor meant to shave hair, when misapplied, will cut the flesh….likewise, Occam’s Razor can be misused. While fine and dandy, what Occam proposes is actually a “rule of thumb” and not necessarily a rule of logic. The physical world is myriad of complexity that cannot not be reduced to simplicity as the Razor suggests. Occam’s Razor doesn’t necessarily mean that the simplest answer is the correct one, but rather one shouldn’t complicate a theory if a simpler one is at the ready.

I think you are framing Occam’s Razor, with other assumptions, in order make your point. Eh, sorry you can’t use his Razor in such a way— you gonna cut yourself lol. Just because one develops an idea that has one assumption (commitment) that doesn’t imply that that the theory is automatically RIGHT. In interesting thought-game would be this: Occam’s Razor applies to this universe, does it not. Does that mean that it would apply to a being that exists outside this universe?

Mine is equally as simple and draws upon, dare I say, our God-given ability to reason. I’ll call on my good friend Aquinas first to help out:

1.       Everything we observe in the physical universe required something to else to bring it into existence. There is not one thing that we have observed or know of that brought itself into existence.
2.       We can ask this question “What was required to bring X into existence?” and the answer will always be “Something other than X is required to bring X into existence.”
3.       Ultimately, when you ask this question, you get to the question of matter (“Wossamotta U”)—“What brought matter into existence?” Logic, based on what we observe thorugh science, tells us that something not made of matter (i.e. immaterial) would be necessary to bring matter into existence.

Round 3

semperfortis

06.08.2019 10:05PM

Pro

== Rebuttals ==

Cosmological Argument From Contingency

This argument essentially claims that the universe is as a whole contingent and the only possible explanation for its existence it that it has been created by a necessary, non-contingent entity i.e a being without a cause. However, in Con's third premise he only limits this to matter, but the universe is comprised of space-time, matter and energy so I will assume Con wishes to extend it to this.

This argument is ultimately incoherent and begs the question. This is because it is successfully refuted by the Hume-Edwards Principle and is also predicated on the fallacy of composition.

To elaborate, the Hume-Edwards Principle illustrates that if each element in a collection is given a causal explanation, then the aggregate of all the elements has likewise been explained.[1]

Pro is effectively postulating that in a collection X, which has elements p,q,r, wherein these elements are each causally contingent, there must be a non-contingent cause for p,q,r. However, via the Hume-Edwards Principle, if the cause of p,q and r itself is contingent then the necessity for a non-contingent origin is not facillitated as the origin itself is contingent.

Even if the universe has a non-contingent cause for its existence, it would be unreasonable to assume that the non-contingent cause is God. Assuming such is special pleading, thus it is required for Pro to prove that this cause is necessarily God as defined per the description.

Secondly, in a collection X, comprised of elements p,q and r, wherein each element is itself contingent, it would be committing the fallacy of composition to presume that the collection X, is also contingent, just because the elements it contains are contingent. The fallacy of composition effectively means that the whole of something doesn't necessarily have the same properties of that which comprises it [2]. Hence, it is intellectually dishonest to assume that the universe as a whole is contingent, just because everything we have observed within the universe is contingent.

== Aff ==

Occam's Razor

Here Con misrepresents my intentions with Occam's Razor. He asserts:

"Just because one develops an idea that has one assumption (commitment) that doesn’t imply that that the theory is automatically RIGHT"

I never stated that; I professed that it would be deduced to be a priori most likely viz. due to the Law of Parisomony the competing theory with less ontological commitments is deemed more likely than the other theory. This is sourced from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that I included in my references in the first round.

My adversary misunderstands the use and purpose of Occam's Razor, he states:

"The physical world is myriad of complexity that cannot not be reduced to simplicity as the Razor suggests"

This is unsourced and commits a bare assertion fallacy. Moreover, it is misleading to draw focus to the individual parts i.e the complexed, physical laws of our universe, rather than focus on the ontological nature of our universe, as that is the context of the debate at hand. I'm also surprised Con has stated this because the Razor is often used in the scientific method. It wouldn't need to be further complicated, insofar as, I'm sure Con and I can agree that we both observe the universe to exist. This is what the metaphysical naturalist and the theist have in common. However, what seperates the two, is that theism is contingent upon another ontological commitment i.e God. Therefore, via the Razor, the competing theory is more likely as it has less ontological commitments.

In the next round I commend my opponent to elaborate whilst in the context of the ontology of the universe, why the Razor doesn't apply here.

Furthermore, Con asserts:

"Occam’s Razor applies to this universe, does it not. Does that mean that it would apply to a being that exists outside this universe?"

Occam's Razor applies to *competing hypotheses/theories*. Con implies that because God is defined as transcendent (outwith the observable universe), Occam's Razor wouldn't apply to Him. However, this can be refuted by a simple analogy. If one were to wake up on a cold winter morning to see that there stood a snowman in their front garden, the idea that the neighbour erected the snowman is more parsimonious than the idea that God erected the snowman via Occam's Razor. Hence, it can be seen that being transcendent/non-transcendent is a redherring and completely irrelevant.

Thus, the theory without God's ontological commitment is a priori most likely which means that the resolution is successfully upheld.

== Conclusion ==

Thus far, Con has forwarded the Cosmological Argument from Contingency, to which I have successfully refuted by citing the Hume-Edward principle and by depicting that the argument ultimately commits the fallacy of composition.

Moreover, I have defended my postulate that is Occam's Razor as Con misrepresented the arguments intentions, and attempted to refute the argument with bare assertions, where my argument was credibly cited in the first round -- to which Con has ignored.

Over to Con.

References

[1] link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1003167813221

[2] https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/88/Fallacy-of-Composition

GuitarSlinger

06.09.2019 10:05PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 4

semperfortis

06.09.2019 10:51PM

Pro

Extend.

GuitarSlinger

06.10.2019 06:16PM

Con

I never said or postulated that the "creator" of the universe had to be "non-contingent", did i? I never said whatever created the universe had to be a Being a without a cause. I simply stated that the creator of the universe had to be "im-material" (not made of matter).

The two options regarding matter are:

(a) Matter has always existed

(b) Matter has not always existed and and came into existence.

Option A flies in the face of what we experience and witness everyday-- things coming in and out of existence. That leaves Option B.

Now for Option B, what created matter? What created matter could not be made of matter- if what created "matter" was made of "matter, this would fly in the face of what we experience and observe scientifically.

oromagi

06.14.2019 03:15AM

Better arguments ✔ ✗ ✗ 3 points
Better sources ✔ ✗ ✗ 2 points
Better spelling and grammar ✗ ✔ ✗ 1 point
Better conduct ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Reason: Pro opens with Quine's Ontological Commitments, Con argues (after first forfeit) without evidence that OR may not apply beyond the bounds of the universe and then offers Plato's Argument from Contingency. Pro refutes Plato with the Hume-Edwards principle and ignores OR counter as unsupported. Con forfeits again then denies or misapprehends his use of Plato. Con then argues that if matter was created then matter's creator must be immaterial- non-sequitur defense of Plato or new argument- either way, dismissed. Con never addressed Hume-Edwards and failed to counter OR. Arguments to Pro.
Con to Pro for Con's double forfeits.
Sources to Pro for succinct & relevant use. Con did not even credit Aquinas

Ramshutu

06.11.2019 08:29PM

-->

@Pinkfreud08

*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: PinkFreud08 // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 1 points to pro for conduct.

>Reason for Decision:I'd like to start off by thanking both opponents for this debate
POOR CONDUCT
Con Forfeited the majority of the rounds leaving the debate unfinished, that's poor conduct!
All other points tied, hardly a coherent debate due to the vast amount of Forfeits.

>Reason for Mod Action: This vote is sufficient. Voters may award only conduct points - without referencing arguments A in the case where one side forfeits half or more rounds. However, it is obviously encouraged for voters to assess arguments where possible.

*******************************************************************

Speedrace

06.09.2019 10:52PM

-->

@Dr.Franklin

No, I'm pretty sure that he's an agnostic, he just did another debate about God existing

Dr.Franklin

06.07.2019 08:06PM

great ANOTHER athiest

GuitarSlinger

06.07.2019 04:11PM

-->

@semperfortis

sure thing

semperfortis

06.07.2019 03:40PM

-->

@GuitarSlinger

It is the power to do anything - even logically impossible tasks. Don't worry, my argument will not include the omnipotence paradox - I find the argument fallacious anyway.

Is this okay? I won't be boiling into the semantics of omnipotence per se.

GuitarSlinger

06.07.2019 02:28PM

-->

@semperfortis

Sounds interesting. I'm game.

But first, in terms of omnipotence, can you clarify? Power to do anything or the power to do any that is logical or in the realm of possibility? You're not going to pull the classic trick of "Well if God has the power to do anything, then can he make a stone so heavy even He can't lift it? No? Well then God doesn't exist!" or "Can God make a triangle with only 2 sides? No, well then God doesn't exist!".

Barney

06.07.2019 01:57PM

I oddly agree with BoP being shared on this. It hopefully leads to each side presenting a case, instead of just the BoP game.

oromagi

06.14.2019 02:53AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

RFD in comments.

RationalMadman

06.11.2019 08:31PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

50% F

K_Michael

06.11.2019 07:15PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

As Con pointed out, Occam's razor isn't infallible. (Note: when intelligent cause comes into play, example: a magician's trick, then Occam's razor is less likely.) It implies in this case that a theistic universe is less likely than a non-theistic universe. From there the arguments go to contingent and non-contingent causes, which didn't seem to have a lot of backing either way, and it kinda went over my head so I'm ignoring it. But then Con says "we experience and witness everyday-- things coming in and out of existence." in order to refute a hypothesis that matter has always existed. I have personally never seen "things coming in and out of existence." and according to thermodynamics, this is impossible. Because of this last point and the slight support from Occam's Razor, I give Arguments to Pro.
Arguments
1/2 rounds forfeited by Con. Conduct to Pro.

David

06.11.2019 06:03PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con forfeited more than 1/2 the rounds

Pinkfreud08

06.11.2019 04:33PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

I'd like to start off by thanking both opponents for this debate

POOR CONDUCT

Con Forfeited the majority of the rounds leaving the debate unfinished, that's poor conduct!

All other points tied, hardly a coherent debate due to the vast amount of Forfeits.

Ramshutu

06.11.2019 03:51PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Wow. Excellent debate by pro here, and probably one of the more one sided examples I’ve seen.

On the case of Occams Razor, pro outlines his arguments, and spends the remaining time correcting cons mischaracterization or misunderstanding on its premise. The best part of this for me, is the way pro links likelihood using the razor. He specifically outlined the main reason the razor sets up the likelihood of God based on its pressuppositons. Con was never able to respond due to forfeits.

Cons argument, the argument from creation was dismantled by pro as both special pleading and outlined as a text book example of fallacy of composition. The winning element was that con relies on a non contingent entity being God for no reason. This was excellently explained by con and con again was not able to respond, the final round was mostly ignored as it was primarily a new argument, and the only relevant part was not fully clear how it ties in.

As a result. Pro both affirmed his side and negated his opponents.

Arguments to pro.

Conduct to pro for the forfeit

Barney

06.11.2019 02:44PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

It should be telling that I am not bothering pulling out my template.

Pro ended up outright schooling con on con's own propositions and what they would necessarily entail, to such an extend that con seemed unable to understand his own case but just relaunched the first cause argument without first offering any defense of it. In contrast, pro's case used Occam's Razor, which con repeatedly joked about rather than refuting the conclusion drawn (or sliced) by it. Bare in mind, the resolution was dealing with mere likelihood, to which Occam's Razor is perfect for displaying.

Sources: I don't normally give this for so few, but con's lack of any sources vs pro giving him the educational material to understand his own case is not to be dismissed. My favorite source was of course LogicallyFallacious, as it allowed me to quickly review the logical rule pro was using separate from pro's representation of his and con's cases.

Conduct: Repeated forfeiture.