I find it kind of funny that the countries in Europe that were INVADED by the NATIONAL SOCIALISTS are the countries that have adopted socialism so much more fully than the US.
We see socialism as a boogeyman
Socialism
Posts
Total:
16
-->
@Vegasgiants
Pros of socialism
- Reduction of relative poverty. ...
- Free health care. ...
- Diminishing marginal utility of income. ...
- A more equal society is more cohesive. ...
- Socialist values encourage selflessness rather than selfishness. ...
- Benefits of public ownership. ...
- Environment. ...
- Reduced hidden taxes.
All governments want to be socialist. Its the capitalism that doesnt work. Only strong government is big government. All small governments under its protection. Small governments dont survive really well.
-->
@Best.Korea
I really believe that you are one of the smartest people on this site.
Under TRUE socialism, it is the government that owns the means of production, and pretty much everything else.
Few if any countries are governed under this form of economics.
Perhaps this discussion is actually about democratic socialism.
-->
@prefix
Democratic Socialism is a branch of Socialism.
I actually have no idea wtf the original post is talking about because Germany and Italy as fascists conquered nations that all are right wing now, which nation is vegasgiants referring to?
-->
@Vegasgiants
Well, I wouldn't say it's socialism. It's something close to it but not entirely socialism, it's called social democracy.
During the Russian Revolution people in Europe were getting enticed by communism which was highly risky so politicians gave people something similar to socialism so that democracy could prevail. That's why European taxes are insanely high so the government can pay all the social programs they need to keep the people satisfied.
I'm not sure if the US should apply socialism, that would go against their values. Look at China, for example, they thrived because they've been doing what the americans did from the very beginning. The only problem of the US, as I see it, is the racial segregation and how their cities are designed. Maybe you can copy what Europe does in those matters.
-->
@IlDiavolo
USA has some socialism too, given 1.5 trillion to healthcare, 1 trillion to social security.
Its just that taxes arent high enough, USA prints money instead.
Socialism in practice is: The government stealing wealth and/or enslaving people (a matter of semantics in the final analysis) and then using that wealth/productivity in the name of the common good (for people they say deserve it, sometimes).
That has been going on since the dawn of civilization. That is not qualitatively different from what a renaissance monarch was claiming to do.
What was different in the late 19th and 20th century was socialism as moral authority.
All socialists including fascists, marxists, nazis, syndicalists, etc... claim that because the state is working for the people and indeed perhaps an avatar of the people; everything it steals is justified and anyone who defies the duty is criminal.
This is distinct from the divine right of feudalism in which the moral authority came from god, the king might be doing it for the benefit of the people but that isn't his justification.
This is also distinct from government by consent of English liberalism (and for a short sweet period french liberalism). In that (american/revolutionary french) theory the state justifies its existence because it protects the rights of the people and when the people no longer consider their rights to be protected the state no long deserves to exist.
So it boils down to one simple difference: If you tell a socialist state they're screwing you; that's a "you" problem. If you tell a liberal state they're screwing you, that's a "them" problem.
There are contradictions baked into the US founding. The moral theory of english liberalism is incompatible with taxation, but we pretend. Thus we (as Korea pointed out) steal trillions, spend trillions in the name of the common good (just like a socialist state claims to do) and yet we claim to be against socialism and for government by consent.
-->
@Best.Korea
Yes, it kind of. That's s why the US had to raise the debt ceiling each time the democrats increase the expenditure in social programs. That's not sustainable though, it should stop at some point.
-->
@IlDiavolo
Or go back to a top tax rate of 90 percent like the last smart Republican President had.
-->
@RationalMadman
Democratic Socialism is a branch of Socialism.
Actually, Democratic Socialism might not exist. Certainly not since the fall of the USSR.
"Democratic socialism is defined as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled alongside a liberal democratic political system of government."
"The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1945–1992) styled itself a socialist democracy, as did the People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946–1990) and the Socialist Republic of Romania (1947–1989)"
I actually have no idea wtf the original post is talking about because Germany and Italy as fascists conquered nations that all are right wing now, which nation is vegasgiants referring to?
Kindly list the nations conquered by fascists in WW2 that are now "right wing"
And since you mentioned it, Germany and Italy in the 1930s and 40s were closer the Socialism than anything today.
-->
@Vegasgiants
I find it kind of funny that the countries in Europe that were INVADED by the NATIONAL SOCIALISTS are the countries that have adopted socialism so much more fully than the US.
Nationl Socialists and Socialists are two completely different things, National Socialists are Nazis, and the political ideology is Fascism. Fascism and Socialism are lmost diametrically opposed political ideologies, National Socialism is about consolidating power in a dictator, socialism is about distributing power and authority. National Socialism was formed as opposition to Socialism. There's nothing funny about the countries the Nazi's invaded being Socislists, the Nazi's lost, Socialism prevailed.
We see socialism as a boogeyman
Yes, Socialism is opposed to Capitalism, that makes in a boogeyman, which is why the right has turned Socialism into a name calling strategy, but the real boogeyman is Fascism, a third of this country has embraced it without even knowing it.
It's like Deja Vu all over again.
-->
@Sidewalker
But the real boogeyman is Fascism, a third of this country has embraced it without even knowing it.
More like 2/3 of the country.
-->
@Best.Korea
In 1918, Albert Einstein was one of the founding members of the German Democratic Party, a liberal party.: 83 However, later in his life, Einstein was in favor of socialism and in opposition to capitalism. In his 1949 essay "Why Socialism?", he wrote:
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.
8 days later
-->
@FLRW
Pros of socialism
- Reduction of relative poverty. ...
- Free health care. ...
- Diminishing marginal utility of income. ...
- A more equal society is more cohesive. ...
- Socialist values encourage selflessness rather than selfishness. ...
- Benefits of public ownership. ...
- Environment. ...
- Reduced hidden taxes.
- Elimination of Private Property
- Elimination of Free-Flowing Prices
- Central Planning
- Union Regulated Wages
- Prohibition of Manufacturing and Distributing Luxury Items
- Reduced Product Differentiation and Substitution
- Decreased Quality of Goods & Services
- Diminished Incentive for Innovation
- Rationing
- Stagnant National Productivity
- Elimination of Individualist Moralism
...and many more.