First cause

Author: Fallaneze

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#1
Fallaneze
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If the Big Bang wasn't brought into existence by free will, then there must be an infinite regress of preceding causes that led to up to the Big Bang.

Given an infinite amount of time, any action that has a greater than 0 chance of occurring will inevitably occur.

One this action inevitably occurs, we can count backwards the number of trials that led up to the action. By doing this, the entire event has a quantifiable beginning.

The problem is that given an unlimited amount of time, something that can happen inevitably will. This gives you an infinite chain of events that all have quantifiable beginnings to them which is logically absurd. The only way around this is if an action occurred by free will - in that case the event will not have a quantifiable beginning.






#2
secularmerlin
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@Fallaneze
We have no evidence of any will absent of an organic brain free or otherwise.

#3
TwoMan
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Infinite regress is logically impossible. The beginnings of existence are beyond our epistemological limits. The paradox of existence could mean an action cased by free will, that is one of an unknown number of possibilities. We don't know. I think that we simply don't have enough information to understand the concept of time or cause and effect as it relates to existence pre-Big Bang or of existence itself. To insist on one of an unknowable number of unknowable possibilities, is hubris.

#4
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Rather than a free will, I would go with an uncaused cause.

#5
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@Mopac
You mean a fantasy that panders to your religious belief, no reality needed.
#6
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@disgusted
I 'kinda believe' in a uncaused cause too.... but my idea of an uncaused cause isn't godlike - it's more like a 'revised mathematical defintion of time'. 

IMO we are missing a critical part of the solution and when we find we will kick ourselves for not seeing it.  If the missing piece is anyting like a god I'll eat my shorts live on webcam.


#7
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The proponents of a first cause also propose that there is no such thing  as a first cause, that's godism for you. hahahahaha
#8
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@keithprosser
@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality did not begin to exist, if it did, it wouldn't be The Ultimate Reality.

But it would have to be the cause of everything. There is no other alternative.

This is only baffling if you think you have to completely understand or know something in order to believe it. Nobody completely understands or knows The Ultimate Reality. If they did, it wouldn't be The Ultimate Reality.

And The Ultimate Reality is God.


#9
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@Mopac
This is only baffling if you think you have to completely understand or know something in order to believe it.
If you don't understand something then it is 'baffling' by definition! 


Are you saying you don't actually understand "The Ultimate Reality did not begin to exist, if it did, it wouldn't be The Ultimate Reality."?  If so how do you expect us to understand it, let alone believe it?





#10
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@Fallaneze
Eternally existent and finite, occupied Space Universe has no first cause.

Universe existence has cause and effect with any specific time period associated with any special-case set of circumstances.

Ex 13.5 - 17 billion years ago some phenomena occured that no on really knows what occurred.

The CMB can be traced to events that occurred only approximately 380,000 years after the Big Bang.



#11
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@TwoMan
To insist on one of an unknowable number of unknowable possibilities, is hubris.
A hindu myth tells us the gods came into being alongside the universe so even they don't how it happened!
#12
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@keithprosser
Strange as it may seem, you don't have to know everything to know something.

I certainly believe I know enough to make these statements. In fact, I say these things because I know! Of course, you don't know that.


But yeah, The Ultimate Reality is the uncaused caused.

#13
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@Mopac
But yeah, The Ultimate Reality is the uncaused caused.
Almost by definition, I'd say.

Whatever happened at the beginning of time and space was something unlike anything we know about.  But if there was an uncaused causer of the universe, it is only by faith (no logic) that anyone can say it 'so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life' and has strong views on marriage!



#14
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@keithprosser
Well, mysteries are not really supposed to be immediately apprehended.
#15
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@Mopac
So perhaps you can now concede that it is possible to believe in an 'ultimate reality' without committing to the existence of the Christian God?
#16
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@Fallaneze
Is there a non-zero chance that, once you reach heaven, you can misbehave enough to be kicked out?

If so, then because heaven is eternal, everyone will eventually be kicked out.
#17
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@Fallaneze
If the Big Bang wasn't brought into existence by free will, then there must be an infinite regress of preceding causes that led to up to the Big Bang.
You've set up a false dilemma. I'll go with a third option, that we don't yet fully understand causality, or time, or how the universe came into being.

#18
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@keithprosser
The Christian God is The Ultimate Reality.

You just don't know that is the Christian God because you don't know the Christian God.

But certainly, you could. I wouldn't tell you to profess to believe something you don't understand enough to really believe. What I would tell you is that there is something real there. The thing about the faith is, if you are full of pride or lack charity, you will never get it! And that is a hint if you ever seriously wanted to look into it. I would recommend talking to a priest with the intent of being taught. Don't be afraid to ask difficult things, they are likely used to that sort of thing. Likewise, don't throw the whole thing out because you don't get an answer that satisfies you. They are human you know, but if you want to learn, it is their job to help guide you into a knowing relationship with God, with spirit and truth.


But no, there are plenty of people who believe in God who are not Christian. Orthodoxy is the correct faith though, and though the attitude of the world seems to be "anything but that!" There is a reason for this. It is the same reason that we are nicknamed the church of martyrs. The devil really is trying to destroy our church, because it isn't in the best interests of those trying to enslave us that people know The Truth. 

Anyway, I'd tell you to just keep it on your mind. Don't outright dismiss it. There is more there than you are likely aware of.

#19
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@Stronn
I'll go with a third option, that we don't yet fully understand causality, or time, or how the universe came into being.
+1!
#20
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@keithprosser
Whatever happened at the beginning of time and space was something unlike anything we know about.

There exists no "beginning of time and space" ergo there exists no 'first cause'. There exists a first cause within an eternally exixstent Universe, at any arbitrary point humans choose.

See 1st law of therodynamics that was first discovered in late 1800's.
....ergo occupied SPACE cannot be created nor destroyed i.e. naught is created nor lost in respect to occupied Space.....

..."Cosmologists studying the cosmic microwave background radiation can look through much of the universe back to when it was opaque: a view back to 380,000 years after the Big Bang"...


Whatever occurs with and eternally existent and changing Universe, there are finite limits of what can occur.

Ex the can only exist 5 regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe.  End of that particular scenario.

A few can see truth even fewer can acknowledge truth.

#21
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@Fallaneze
Cause and effect only have meaning if time exists. Are you saying you believe that time existed before the Big Bang?
#22
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@Mopac
I would go with an uncaused cause.

So NO first cause then.
#23
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@Castin
Cause and effect only have meaning if time exists.
I don't know if I think that is obviously true or a failure of human imagination.   When we imagine space being the size of an orange or whatever, i can't help imagining it surrounded by black and looking at it from outside.  But there would be no 'black' or 'outside'.   It's the same with time starting.   I we say time starts at X, we can't help contradicting ourselves by wondering what was happening before then!

It ight be that if ever we do find out about such things we won't be able to believe it.   We're use to believing what we don't know, but not believing what we know is weird.


#24
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@Stronn
Is there a non-zero chance that, once you reach heaven, you can misbehave enough to be kicked out?
If so, then because heaven is eternal, everyone will eventually be kicked out.
Is there a non-zero chance that, once you reach hell, you can behave well enough to be kicked out?
If so, then because hell is eternal, everyone will eventually be kicked out.

I wonder what the churn rate would look like?

Maybe only two or three people in heaven at any one time?
#25
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@keithprosser
I'll go with a third option, that we don't yet fully understand causality, or time, or how the universe came into being.
+1!
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
#26
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@3RU7AL
Good point. Perhaps the afterlife will consist of oscillating between heaven and hell every few eons.
#27
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@Fallaneze
If the Big Bang wasn't brought into existence by free will, then there must be an infinite regress of preceding causes that led to up to the Big Bang.
The Big Bang was either caused or uncaused.  The human concept of free-will has no bearing on the matter.

Given an infinite amount of time, any action that has a greater than 0 chance of occurring will inevitably occur.
We have no indication if time itself (or anything else for that matter) is "infinite" or not.

One this action inevitably occurs, we can count backwards the number of trials that led up to the action. By doing this, the entire event has a quantifiable beginning.
Generally speaking.

The problem is that given an unlimited amount of time,
An unfalsifiable hypothesis, given current human (and possibly fundamentally insurmountable) limitations.

...something that can happen inevitably will. This gives you an infinite chain of events that all have quantifiable beginnings to them which is logically absurd.
Not "logically absurd", in-fact, perfectly logically coherent, except for the hypothetical "first-cause" that may or may not precede the apparent "first cause" which we can currently extrapolate scientifically (which is necessarily beyond our epistemological limits).

The only way around this is if an action occurred by free will...
I'm pretty sure "free-will" has no bearing on this hypothesis.  You might be conflating the term "free-will" with "uncaused".

- in that case the event will not have a quantifiable beginning.
If the earliest event we can identify has no known cause, it is essentially and practically, an uncaused event and is yet, very much "quantifiable".

If you are searching for logical evidence of (ontological) god(s), you've found it.

"NTURTTGgTS" = "Noumenon, The Ultimate Reality, The Truth, [G]god, The Source" is a logical and necessary prerequisite of phenomena.

However, if "The Big Bang" is your god(s), you are merely confirming/asserting (ontological) Deism.

And Deism is functionally identical to atheism.
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#28
Fallaneze
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It isn't a false dilemma because it is either true that the Big Bang occurred by chance or it is not true that the Big Bang occurred by chance.

Since natural explanations lead to an infinite chain of events with quantifiable beginnings, the only recourse is to say that we don't understand how it happened. That may be true, but it doesn't address the logic in my argument.
#29
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@Fallaneze
It isn't a false dilemma because it is either true that the Big Bang occurred by chance or it is not true that the Big Bang occurred by chance. 
Since natural explanations lead to an infinite chain of events with quantifiable beginnings, the only recourse is to say that we don't understand how it happened. That may be true, but it doesn't address the logic in my argument.
The upshot of your argument is moot.

If you are making an ontological argument for Deism, you are no better off than you were before all of your "reasoning".

All you need to say is, "The Big Bang" = god(s).

The real trick is bridging the unfathomable gap between Deism and any particular religious (dogmatic) tradition.
#30
Goldtop
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@Fallaneze
If the Big Bang wasn't brought into existence by free will, then there must be an infinite regress of preceding causes that led to up to the Big Bang.

The only way around this is if an action occurred by free will - in that case the event will not have a quantifiable beginning.
You have made this assertion but have not quantified or explained this difference in any way.

An obvious false premise, the Big Bang whether brought on by free will or not can both be argued for infinite regress.