In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked

Author: Best.Korea

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No one showed interest in this topic in the debate section, so I bring it to the forum section to start a debate here.

Here is a debate as it would have been done if someone accepted.

I will make my case here. If anyone wishes to refute it, now is your chance to do so.

If you wonder why I didnt present entire case in round 1, but divided it on 4 rounds, I did it simply since character limit allows me that. Normally, when you are short on characters and are starting a debate by going first, you are supposed to present as much of your case as you can in the first round. Since I wasnt short on characters, I went with this option.

Round 1

Topic
In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked

Introduction
We all remember that when we were children, we desired love and compassion to make our little hearts feel warm. Children today also desire love and compassion. Adults have a duty to raise children in the best way possible. Every child deserves a chance. If child is mistreated and abused, then can we really blame that child if that child becomes a bad person? Or do we blame ourselves because we didnt provide the nutrition of love that each child needs to be the best it can be. In this topic, we will discuss spanking, and the horrible effects it has on children.

Definition
Spanking - to hit a child with the hand, usually several times on the bottom to cause pain as a punishment.

Arguments

1. Studies

"As recently as 20 years ago, the physical punishment of children was generally accepted worldwide and was considered an appropriate method of eliciting behavioural compliance that was conceptually distinct from physical abuse. However, this perspective began to change as studies found links between “normative” physical punishment and child aggression, delinquency and spousal assault in later life. Some of these studies involved large representative samples from the United States; some studies controlled for potential confounders, such as parental stress and socioeconomic status; and some studies examined the potential of parental reasoning to moderate the association between physical punishment and child aggression. Virtually without exception, these studies found that physical punishment was associated with higher levels of aggression against parents, siblings, peers and spouses."


Studies

2. Causing pain wont cause love

Causing pain to a child will make child feel scared. Child will no longer feel love. Child will think that the action he did was very bad without understanding why is it bad. Child will become a worse person who only refuses to do bad when there is punishment. Causing pain wont cause love.

3. There are better ways than spanking
If child misbehaves, it is often because child wants something. There is no need to hit the child. Just ask the child: "Please calm down. Could you tell me what do you want? Tell me what you want and we will see if we can make it happen.". Solve problems with child with conversations. That way, you will teach a child to solve problems with conversations in the future. There are better ways than spanking.

Conclusion

Studies show that spanking is bad. Causing pain wont cause love. There are better ways than spanking. In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked.

Round 2

Arguments

1. Studies

"“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.”
Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children."


Studies

2. Causing pain wont cause love

Causing pain to a child makes child think that its okay for adults to hurt children. It is the worst lesson that adult could teach a child. Child who is in pain will have less opportunity to learn love. Child will often escape in his imagination to a better place where he is not hurt, where he is protected. That imagination slowly fades as adults keep hurting him. Causing pain wont cause love.

3. There are better ways than spanking

Child will improve communication skills and become better at reasoning from early age if they solve problems with conversations instead of violence. Child's communication is important in life, because it enables a child to better bond with others and communicate better, so that child is able to have healthier relationships with others. There are better ways than spanking.

Conclusion

Studies show that spanking is bad. Causing pain wont cause love. There are better ways than spanking. In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked.

Round 3

Arguments

1. Studies

"The review, published Monday in the journal Lancet, found physical punishment such as spanking is "harmful to children's development and well-being," said senior author Elizabeth Gershoff, a professor in human development and family sciences at The University of Texas at Austin.
"Parents hit their children because they think doing so will improve their behavior," Gershoff said. "Unfortunately for parents who hit, our research found clear and compelling evidence that physical punishment does not improve children's behavior and instead makes it worse.""


Studies

2. Causing pain wont cause love

Children who are loved are brought up in their full potential. They were given a chance. Children who are in pain werent given a chance. Maybe the misbehavior wasnt their fault. Maybe they were upset about something. Maybe they are misbehaving because they were hurt. Causing pain wont cause love.

3. There are better ways than spanking

Teach a child to behave properly. Tell your child stories. Teach your child morals. Teach your child the ways of peace and nonmaleficence. Set an example. Adult shouldnt hit a child. Adult should be a role-model for the child. Adult who entertains a child and gets child's attention is loved by the child and child will better listen to that adult. There are better ways than spanking.

Conclusion

Studies show that spanking is bad. Causing pain wont cause love. There are better ways than spanking. In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked.

Round 4

Arguments

1. Studies

"One of those scientists is Elizabeth Gershoff, professor of human development and family sciences at the University of Texas. She has spent the better part of two decades trying to figure out whether spanking works. Her most comprehensive study yet, published earlier this month in the journal The Lancet, comes to a definitive conclusion: No."

"...they focused on the long-term effects of physical punishment, such as whether kids who are spanked are more likely to share or, conversely, more likely to have anxiety years down the line.
According to the review, not a single study identified a positive benefit for kids as a result of spanking.
“If spanking worked, we would see children's behavior get better over time, right? That’s the goal. But we don't see that,” Gershoff said."


Studies

2. Causing pain wont cause love

How do you know that child will be better if you cause him pain? How do you know that causing pain to a child fixes something? You dont. You just assume. You use child as an outlet for your anger, when the child needs to be safe from pain. Child needs your love. Causing pain wont cause love.

3. There are better ways than spanking

Some people think that they can raise a child by placing him in a corner and have him be obedient all day. That is an incorrect approach. Child is a living being that needs attention and love. Parents need to be active and provide the attention and love. If child does something bad, there is no need to cause pain to a child. There is no need to yell. Reason with the child. Explain to a child why his actions were bad. Tell him that there are better things to do. Entertain a child into activities that are fun to distract a child from bad activities. There are better ways than spanking.

Conclusion

Studies show that spanking is bad. Causing pain wont cause love. There are better ways than spanking. In most cases, children who misbehave should not be spanked.

Double_R
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@Best.Korea
If child misbehaves, it is often because child wants something. There is no need to hit the child. Just ask the child: "Please calm down. Could you tell me what do you want? Tell me what you want and we will see if we can make it happen.".
Bullshit. My kid steps out of line I’m spanking the shit out of them.
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@Double_R
I dont get emotional about this. I dont have personal interest. I just tell losers that hurt kids that they are morally and scientifically wrong.
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@Best.Korea
Hey, just clarifying, when I have kids I'm not gonna spank them. But.

In your post you cant be morally and scientifically wrong. Even though science does have a connection to philosophy, it does not have a direct connection to morality.
Science is supposed to be based on facts. I don't agree with all these facts but that is in the definition of science. ;) 
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@Best.Korea
What is love B.K.

It might be Ice Cream for some.

It might be spanking for others.

Love is just a word we can apply indiscriminately to internal electro-chemical responses.
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@Best.Korea
I dont get emotional about this. I dont have personal interest. I just tell losers that hurt kids that they are morally and scientifically wrong.
There’s no such thing as scientifically wrong, science has nothing to do with morality.

In all seriousness I do believe in spanking kids when they get out of line but only to a certain age. Once they are old enough to explain themselves and what they were thinking I believe in talking it out. I think of it like the elephant and the anvil.
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@Double_R
There’s no such thing as scientifically wrong
There is. You are thinking you are not hurting kids. Science says that it hurts kids.

science has nothing to do with morality.
Unless your morality says that you shouldnt hurt others.

In all seriousness I do believe in spanking kids when they get out of line but only to a certain age. 
You like hurting them while they are young.

Once they are old enough to explain themselves and what they were thinking I believe in talking it out. I think of it like the elephant and the anvil.
I think of it like child abuse, since you are hurting kids.
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@Best.Korea
Spanking - to hit a child with the hand, usually several times on the bottom to cause pain as a punishment.
There you go, that is why I disagree with the delegalization of spanking. You see, some hit their children with a paddle or a whip, or their belt with the metal shackle on the anterior, which is what my dad used to do until he was educated on the harms of doing so. The point is, removing "with the hand", and I would agree more with what you agree with.

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@Best.Korea
There’s no such thing as scientifically wrong
There is. You are thinking you are not hurting kids. Science says that it hurts kids.
Science can explain the impact of striking a child, it cannot tell you whether it was right or wrong. Those are two completely different things.

In all seriousness I do believe in spanking kids when they get out of line but only to a certain age.
You like hurting them while they are young.
I believe in teaching them that there are consequences to their actions and that they need to recognize their parents as authorities. Small children don’t understand those concepts through intellectual discussion, so I see no other way to teach them that.

Some kids are sensitive, so yelling at them might get the job done. Hitting them is never the goal, getting through to them is.

But like I said, I’m only talking about in the earlier stages. If they learn this lesson before they were old enough to retain specific memories they’ll carry it subconsciously throughout their childhood into their teenage years. If you let it get beyond that point you’ll spend the rest of their growing up years pleading with them to listen to what you have to say. Sorry, not about to do that.
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@Double_R
Science can explain the impact of striking a child, it cannot tell you whether it was right or wrong. Those are two completely different things.
People who hit kids think that they are not hurting them. Science says that they are hurting them. Therefore, their opinion is scientifically wrong, incorrect.

I believe in teaching them that there are consequences to their actions and that they need to recognize their parents as authorities. Small children don’t understand those concepts through intellectual discussion, so I see no other way to teach them that.
Plenty of kids werent spanked. Almost all of them learned proper behavior, and did better as a group in learning proper  behavior than spanked kids. They received love instead of spanking. Spanked kids are more likely to hurt others. Therefore, love is a better way to teach proper behavior. Communication is not based on just intellectual discussion. Rather, it is based on guiding others and encouraging them to do good. Communication is better than spanking.

Some kids are sensitive, so yelling at them might get the job done. Hitting them is never the goal, getting through to them is.
Encouraging them to do good gets the job done much better. Communication and guiding get the job done much better. Encouraging, communication and guiding should be done instead of hitting and yelling.

But like I said, I’m only talking about in the earlier stages. If they learn this lesson before they were old enough to retain specific memories they’ll carry it subconsciously throughout their childhood into their teenage years. If you let it get beyond that point you’ll spend the rest of their growing up years pleading with them to listen to what you have to say. Sorry, not about to do that.
Its interesting how people are hating map and basing their hate on studies that sexual activities hurt children, and then at the same time ignore studies that spanking hurts children and still spank children.
So, thanks for justifying sexual activities with children.
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@Intelligence_06
The point is, removing "with the hand", and I would agree more with what you agree with.
I used the definition I found on google.

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key words in most cases
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@zedvictor4
What is love B.K.

It might be Ice Cream for some.

It might be spanking for others.
Some children do get turned on by spanking, but most dont. Most hate it.
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@AmericanPatriot
when I have kids I'm not gonna spank them
That is good. I probably wont ever have kids, but if I did have kids, I would never spank them.
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@Best.Korea
People who hit kids think that they are not hurting them. Science says that they are hurting them. Therefore, their opinion is scientifically wrong, incorrect.
This has nothing to do with our conversation.

Plenty of kids werent spanked. Almost all of them learned proper behavior, and did better as a group in learning proper  behavior than spanked kids. They received love instead of spanking. Spanked kids are more likely to hurt others. Therefore, love is a better way to teach proper behavior. Communication is not based on just intellectual discussion. Rather, it is based on guiding others and encouraging them to do good. Communication is better than spanking.
I’m specifically talking about before they are capable of fully communicating. Looking through your studies, none that I have seen focus on this segment.

One study I came across talked about spanking infants resulting in likely injuries, which is far from what I’m talking about. Infants are not yet capable of connecting the dots between their actions and the punishment, so hitting them is just pointless and cruel.

Its interesting how people are hating map and basing their hate on studies that sexual activities hurt children, and then at the same time ignore studies that spanking hurts children and still spank children.
So, thanks for justifying sexual activities with children.
This is just stupid, as well as irrelevant to anything I’ve said

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@Double_R
This has nothing to do with our conversation.
You claimed that you were not scientifically wrong. Now you know that you are.

I’m specifically talking about before they are capable of fully communicating. Looking through your studies, none that I have seen focus on this segment. One study I came across talked about spanking infants resulting in likely injuries, which is far from what I’m talking about. Infants are not yet capable of connecting the dots between their actions and the punishment, so hitting them is just pointless and cruel.
Kid at any age can see and experience adults around him. Kid at any age can be guided and encouraged by adults. It is possible to have communication at kid of any age. My argument was never about "fully communicating".

If kids are harmed from punishment at age when they can fully communicate, then it is safe to assume that they are harmed even more from punishnents at age when they cant fully communicate.
Your whole argument comes down to a point where kids cannot fully communicate, but somehow still understand punishments properly. Pure nonsense.

Science has shown that even a child being yelled at harms their brain, with visible negative changes to the brain that remain for a life time. Spanking children is worse. In fact, out of hundreds of scientific studies that were done on spanking, all without exception have shown that it is harmful. Children should not be spanked. It is not true that child at some age benefits from spanking. It is not true that child at some age isnt harmed from spanking. There is no "some age" where it is okay to do.

This is just stupid, as well as irrelevant to anything I’ve said
Actually, it is most relevant. If you think you should be able to hurt children for your pleasure, it follows that you cannot judge other groups in society who hurt children for their pleasure.
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@Best.Korea
If child misbehaves, it is often because child wants something. There is no need to hit the child. Just ask the child: "Please calm down. Could you tell me what do you want? Tell me what you want and we will see if we can make it happen.".
Bullshit. My kid steps out of line I’m spanking the shit out of them.

WHOLLY SHIT!!!!

I actually found something I can 100% agree/stand behind/support that Double_R said!!! 

Slap me silly!!! 
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@Best.Korea
You claimed that you were not scientifically wrong. Now you know that you are.
Your original statement was made in a moral context, which has nothing to do with science. Now you are claiming what is scientifically wrong is the claim that spanking children doesn’t hurt them, which is a claim I never made.

Your whole argument comes down to a point where kids cannot fully communicate, but somehow still understand punishments properly.
No, what kids understand is that if they are going to get spanked when they do something, don’t do it. Every child goes through a phase, usually dubbed the “terrible twos” where they become consumed with testing their parents to see what they can get away with. It is during this phase that they need to understand their boundaries, talking to them is not going to get it done because they aren’t at the point where they understand complex thoughts. What they understand is “no” and “pow pow”. That’s about it. If you want to go through that phase begging and pleading with your two year old to behave that’s on you. 

Science has shown that even a child being yelled at harms their brain, with visible negative changes to the brain that remain for a life time. Spanking children is worse. In fact, out of hundreds of scientific studies that were done on spanking, all without exception have shown that it is harmful.
Define harmful.

Actually, it is most relevant. If you think you should be able to hurt children for your pleasure, it follows that you cannot judge other groups in society who hurt children for their pleasure.
Exactly why this is so stupid. I never said, suggested nor implied that I should hurt my children for my own pleasure. You made that up entirely.
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@Double_R
Your original statement was made in a moral context, which has nothing to do with science.
There, there. There is no need to lie.
Here is my original sentence. You probably thought I wont bother to copy it, but you were wrong. 

"I just tell losers that hurt kids that they are morally and scientifically wrong.".

Notice the part "morally and scientifically wrong"
So I clearly separated morality from science.

To that, you responded:
There’s no such thing as scientifically wrong, science has nothing to do with morality.
Therefore, you attacked a claim I never even made by refuting it and by misrepresenting what "scientifically wrong" means. I never said that science has something to do with morality.
I said that something can be scientifically wrong. I have proven that. It is scientifically wrong to think: "spanking children wont hurt them", since that opinion goes contrary to literally all scientific evidence.

Then you tried to disprove my statement by going back to the very strawman that you created, also known as "scientifically wrong = morally wrong" - the claim that you attacked and the claim that I never even made. How embarrassing.
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@Double_R
No, what kids understand is that if they are going to get spanked when they do something, don’t do it. Every child goes through a phase, usually dubbed the “terrible twos” where they become consumed with testing their parents to see what they can get away with. It is during this phase that they need to understand their boundaries, talking to them is not going to get it done because they aren’t at the point where they understand complex thoughts. What they understand is “no” and “pow pow”. That’s about it. If you want to go through that phase begging and pleading with your two year old to behave that’s on you.
So you prefer to hurt kids so they wont bother you? Well, thats a great parenting right there at the start.

Also, you ignored my arguments regarding encouragement, playing and guiding. I guess you cant imagine being a role-model for your child. Given your previous lies in this forum section, it is of no surprise.

Define harmful.
What? You dont know the definition?

Well, do you want for your kids to be more depressed? To have more fear and anxiety? To be more violent? To be more likely to be criminals, rapists, sadists and murderers?

Most of us sane people consider these things harmful.

Exactly why this is so stupid. I never said, suggested nor implied that I should hurt my children for my own pleasure.
Well, you in that same comment:
What they understand is “no” and “pow pow”. That’s about it. If you want to go through that phase begging and pleading with your two year old to behave that’s on you.
So you would hurt your kids so that they dont bother you. Therefore, you would hurt them for your pleasure. Now, I am not going to say that you are a psychopath and a criminal, which you are, but what surprises me is how can you lie so much just to hurt kids. Map also feel pain when not offending, in a worse way than what you feel when your kids ask you to talk with them. Maybe you just hate your kids, given your language:
What they understand is “no” and “pow pow”.
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@Best.Korea
Here is my original sentence. You probably thought I wont bother to copy it, but you were wrong. 

"I just tell losers that hurt kids that they are morally and scientifically wrong.".
Once again, no one in this thread has claimed spanking children does’t hurt them, and nothing about your statement suggests you are arguing against that assertion. So the contact you are trying to concoct now was not there when you said this. 

So you prefer to hurt kids so they wont bother you?
No. Children need to learn discipline. I don’t tell my child what to do for my own convenience. If they pick something off the floor and try to eat it I tell them no and they listen because they know what no means.

When they’re at the age where I can sit down with them and explain how germs and their digestive systems work we can try another approach.

Define harmful.
What? You dont know the definition?
No genius, I don’t know your definition. Harmful can mean anything, so it needs to be specifically defined to stop us from talking past each other.

I see that you went on to provide it in your last post, which if I’m following right defines “hurting them” as causing depression, violence and anxiety, ultimately leading to a life of criminality and/or being a rapist, which just makes your question so much more ridiculous.

The question is not whether I or anyone for that matter anyone wants this absurd outcome for their children, it’s whether the treatment I am describing will lead to such outcomes, to which my answer is an emphatic no. Spanking them at a young age *only when necessary* is only part of the equation, balancing that treatment with love apart from that is the other half which you don’t seem to think has anything to do with this conversation judging by your responses.

To that other part I am reminded of the emotional bank account theory; every time you reprimand your child you are making a withdrawal, the more severe the reprimand the larger the withdrawal. All withdrawals need to be balanced by deposits (taking them to the park, reading to them, etc.)

I haven’t read the studies you cited in detail so perhaps you can enlighten me; how much attention have any of them paid attention to the positive attention the child received? Genuinely curious. I am also wondering how many of them focused on the age group I am talking about? I look forward to being enlightened.

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@Double_R
Once again, no one in this thread has claimed spanking children does’t hurt them
So you admit it hurts them.


No. Children need to learn discipline. 
It was already explained that non-spanked children behave better.

When they’re at the age where I can sit down with them and explain how germs and their digestive systems work we can try another approach.
Is your brain incapable of understanding what encouragement means?

No genius, I don’t know your definition. Harmful can mean anything, so it needs to be specifically defined to stop us from talking past each other.
I see that you went on to provide it in your last post, which if I’m following right defines “hurting them” as causing depression, violence and anxiety, ultimately leading to a life of criminality and/or being a rapist, which just makes your question so much more ridiculous.
Well, science is ridiculous, yes.

The question is not whether I or anyone for that matter anyone wants this absurd outcome for their children, it’s whether the treatment I am describing will lead to such outcomes, to which my answer is an emphatic no.
Okay, maybe you are experiencing some mental blockade. The entire science disagrees with you. You saying that something wont happen is irrelevant to anything.

Spanking them at a young age *only when necessary* is only part of the equation
You have an equation?

, balancing that treatment with love apart from that is the other half which you don’t seem to think has anything to do with this conversation judging by your responses.
Balancing hate with love. Is that even love then?

To that other part I am reminded of the emotional bank account theory; every time you reprimand your child you are making a withdrawal, the more severe the reprimand the larger the withdrawal. All withdrawals need to be balanced by deposits (taking them to the park, reading to them, etc.)
Wait, what?

I haven’t read the studies you cited in detail
Dont worry. Judging by your mental abilities, you wouldnt understand them anyway.

so perhaps you can enlighten me; how much attention have any of them paid attention to the positive attention the child received? Genuinely curious. I am also wondering how many of them focused on the age group I am talking about? I look forward to being enlightened
Well, considering that every single study has shown that non-spanked kids behave better, you would have to be a literal idiot to spank your children because you assume some factor wasnt considered that maybe makes spanking okay for you. When out of hundreds of studies that were done, no study agrees with your opinion, you would have to be a literal idiot to assume that spanking makes children behave better.

Only an idiot, when presented with these two options:

1. I dont know if spanking works, science says it doesnt, therefore I wont spank
2. I dont know if spanking works, science says it doesnt, but I will ignore the science in favor of my opinion.

would choose option 2.