Is it okay to debate without reading opponent's case at all?

Author: Best.Korea

Posts

Total: 32
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
I was just wondering something.

I could write 5 rounds in advance before the debate even starts, each round using characters to the max and each round containing new arguments instead of defending old arguments. That way, I dont even have to read my opponent's case or his refutations.

I say this, because reading what other person writes is often boring and sometimes too long.

However, I do like reading my own arguments. So I figured I can probably just skip on reading opponent's case.
FishChaser
FishChaser's avatar
Debates: 76
Posts: 234
2
4
6
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
2
4
6
You could do that but it would suck though.
TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
-->
@Best.Korea
I say this, because reading what other person writes is often boring and sometimes too long.

However, I do like reading my own arguments. So I figured I can probably just skip on reading opponent's case.

Wow. 
FishChaser
FishChaser's avatar
Debates: 76
Posts: 234
2
4
6
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
2
4
6
-->
@TWS1405_2
The ultimate echo chamber
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Best.Korea
Yes. I have sometimes done this.

I have also lost due to doing it but I actually won too and I think I won more.

I always skimread Round 1s but I then start to predict and at times rush later Rounds not caring what my opponent said.

This is largely how I handled Mall's over the top ranting.

It depends on opponent and topic.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Yes if you managed to build your case on the semantic analysis of the topic itself. It is never against the rules, but it may be desirable and that is the real reason we rarely do so.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@FishChaser
You could do that but it would suck though.
I am simply asking if its okay, would it bother people? ... I dont care if it "sucks" for you or for voters. Its me who is important here.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@RationalMadman
This is largely how I handled Mall's over the top ranting.
Actually, I enjoy reading Mall's responses. I wouldnt ignore them.
FishChaser
FishChaser's avatar
Debates: 76
Posts: 234
2
4
6
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
2
4
6
-->
@Best.Korea
I fucked your mom.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
Yes if you managed to build your case on the semantic analysis of the topic itself.
Well, there are rules where Con has to struggle to win. For example, shared burden of proof, plus being forced to prove his side of the topic, not merely refuting your side.

Plus, some topics dont allow much semantics, especially with rules "pro must prove X is true. Con must prove X is not true".

Now, I dont care much about winning. For me, it is all about talking and expressing opinion.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@FishChaser
I fucked your mom.
Okay dad.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Best.Korea
Plus, some topics dont allow much semantics, especially with rules "pro must prove X is true. Con must prove X is not true".
Wrong, if the topic is specifically phrased like this, "Con must prove X is not true" is where you will work your semantics.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
Just to be clear, I would be Pro and I would set rules that Con must argue the opposite of the topic. For example, if topic is "Abortion should be legal", Con would have to prove that "Abortion shouldnt be legal" in order to win. He couldnt merely refute my case or play much semantics with shared burden of proof. He would have to make his case.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Best.Korea
"Abortion shouldnt be legal"
Or his case could be merely built on semantic interpretations of this. All he needs for interaction is to console you that it doesn't matter.

Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
As long as I can ignore his case, it is fine. I dont need to win. I just need to show up.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Best.Korea
Though I must say that 3,000 posts in one year is the kind of achievement. I did that in like 2 and a half.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Unless one is a nerd who has the time to sit for hours at a computer, then debating is not really feasible unless one cuts corners.


Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
How would you know when to report the opponent and start whining about the new CoC enforcement?
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
I could write 5 rounds in advance before the debate even starts, each round using characters to the max and each round containing new arguments instead of defending old arguments. That way, I dont even have to read my opponent's case or his refutations.
This kind of defeats the purpose of a debate. What you’re describing is just two sides presenting their own case with no regard for the objections of their opponent. Normally the idea of a debate is to test whether the case you present can hold up under rational scrutiny.

He couldnt merely refute my case or play much semantics with shared burden of proof. He would have to make his case.
I personally find that a shared burden of proof lowers the quality of a debate. Again, the purpose is for the two sides to clash, and as a judge it’s that clash that gives the reader a sense of who’s winning. Without that it’s really just a matter of whose case is more convincing, which is almost entirely going to be decided on the readers biases coming into the debate.

If you stand by your position, there’s no reason why the BoP should scare you.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@zedvictor4
@Intelligence_06
Most debates and most arguments individually are divided on:

1. Body of reasons

2. Rebuttals

3. Conclusion

Rebuttals take the longest time. Normally, I can write my arguments in 30 minutes. However, rebuttals sometimes take hours if opponent writes a long case. I was hoping I could skip on rebuttals and just work on my own arguments.

So it would be:

1. Body of reasons

2. Conclusion

It would save me a lot of time. Probably would let me increase my debate count.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Sidewalker
How would you know when to report the opponent
I dont remember ever pressing the report button. I dont even report troll votes against me. I dont care much if opponent uses insults or whatever. I can take it.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
How would you know when to report the opponent
I dont remember ever pressing the report button. I dont even report troll votes against me. I dont care much if opponent uses insults or whatever. I can take it.
That wasn't directed at you, I should have worded it differently, how about "How would people knop when to report the opponent".
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Double_R
This kind of defeats the purpose of a debate. What you’re describing is just two sides presenting their own case with no regard for the objections of their opponent. Normally the idea of a debate is to test whether the case you present can hold up under rational scrutiny.
Well, the purpose of the debate is to test the power of your case, yes. However, I already do that in the forum to the point where I get really tired from it. I have done much more debates in the forum than in the debate section. I cannot increase my debate count unless I 
1. Do debates with less rounds
2. Skip on something, such as rebuttals.

Besides, if my case wins without using rebuttals, then thats a really good case. Rebuttals usually place a lot of drain on my debating. Like, having over 5000 characters split in segments and responding to each seems like too much work. Its hard partly because I use smartphone and typing is slower on smartphone.

I personally find that a shared burden of proof lowers the quality of a debate. Again, the purpose is for the two sides to clash, and as a judge it’s that clash that gives the reader a sense of who’s winning. Without that it’s really just a matter of whose case is more convincing, which is almost entirely going to be decided on the readers biases coming into the debate. If you stand by your position, there’s no reason why the BoP should scare you.
You recommend that I place burden on myself and not on my opponent? Well, I mean, I could do that. Its just that then I would have to be more careful in writing topic. Some topics are simply auto-loss for Pro when burden is not shared, especially topics that have little evidence to support Pro's premises, or topics that are refuted by finding exceptions to the case.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
if my case wins without using rebuttals, then thats a really good case.
Not necessarily. If you win without rebuttals it almost certainly just means the readers agreed with your position at the outset.

Rebuttals usually place a lot of drain on my debating. Like, having over 5000 characters split in segments and responding to each seems like too much work.
That’s why I recommend against shared BoP debates.

You recommend that I place burden on myself and not on my opponent? Well, I mean, I could do that. Its just that then I would have to be more careful in writing topic.
Yeah, that’s the point.

Some topics are simply auto-loss for Pro when burden is not shared, especially topics that have little evidence to support Pro's premises, or topics that are refuted by finding exceptions to the case.
If you don’t have evidence to support your position then that right there is your problem. But beyond that these are things you need to learn to handle. People will try to knock your case down with logical fallacies all the time, you’ve got to learn how to identify them and properly call them out.

The way I see it is if that’s what my opponent is lowering themselves to that means they’re losing and can find no other way to defeat my case.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Double_R
If you don’t have evidence to support your position then that right there is your problem.
Well, yeah, that is often my problem since I often debate things that either dont have evidence, either the evidence comes from sources that voters dont accept, so it becomes like I have no evidence. I guess the solution is to only debate topics that have lots of widely accepted evidence, or just face losses.

If you win without rebuttals it almost certainly just means the readers agreed with your position at the outset.
I will try a couple of debates without rebuttals to just see how good is it. If I can write entire debate in advance before the debate even starts, then that is already good for me since I dont have to bother with time limit.


But beyond that these are things you need to learn to handle. People will try to knock your case down with logical fallacies all the time, you’ve got to learn how to identify them and properly call them out. The way I see it is if that’s what my opponent is lowering themselves to that means they’re losing and can find no other way to defeat my case.
Well, logical fallacies are hard to deal with. It is mostly because it takes me more text to refute a fallacy than it takes my opponent to write it.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
Well, yeah, that is often my problem since I often debate things that either dont have evidence, either the evidence comes from sources that voters dont accept, so it becomes like I have no evidence. I guess the solution is to only debate topics that have lots of widely accepted evidence, or just face losses.
Well yeah, I would agree with that statement. Perhaps you should challenge yourself to find more credible sources or focus a bit more on explaining why your sources should be accepted as credible. If others don’t accept it then why do you?

I myself really don’t care to go back and forth about sources either because that tends to be a black hole, that’s why I prefer to do more philosophical debates so I would say that’s another option.

I also don’t focus much on wins and losses, I find that judges on this site can be extremely biased, in my debates it seems like half the votes bring up counter arguments to my position in the RFD that my opponent never even made. The exercise and figuring out how to deal with the challenges is for me the point.

Well, logical fallacies are hard to deal with. It is mostly because it takes me more text to refute a fallacy than it takes my opponent to write it.
Dismantling rebuttals does tend to take more space. My way of dealing with this is of I instigate a debate I keep my opening round to a minimum, say 6k characters with an 8k or 10k limit. If I wanted a shorter debate, say 6k characters then start off with 4k. And if I find that I need more space than that for my opening round I would consider narrowing the scope of the debate so I can focus more on specific parts rather than the entire issue. Most debates come down to a single piece of the case anyway.
Sir.Lancelot
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Debates: 182
Posts: 807
4
6
9
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
4
6
9
-->
@Double_R
If you don’t have evidence to support your position then that right there is your problem. But beyond that these are things you need to learn to handle. People will try to knock your case down with logical fallacies all the time, you’ve got to learn how to identify them and properly call them out.

The way I see it is if that’s what my opponent is lowering themselves to that means they’re losing and can find no other way to defeat my case.
Rational says he uses that as a tactic in his debates.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Rational says he uses that as a tactic in his debates.
cross thread contamination
Bella3sp
Bella3sp's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 214
1
4
9
Bella3sp's avatar
Bella3sp
1
4
9
-->
@Best.Korea
Depends on what you mean by "okay". 

If i'm debating someone and they completely ignored my arguments like I figured you did here:

^ This also shows an example of how it will usually go with votes.

It just comes across as ignorant. As the contender or instigator, it wouldn't be a 'fun' or 'interesting' debate anymore.

If you mean okay to do, as in with voters, probably not.
If your contentions rebuttal, without actually directly rebuttaling, it's possible, yes.

But usually no. You drop all your opponents responses while they are rebuttaling your claims and extending their own.

With their contentions let alone and untouched, it makes all of their claims in this case 'true' while your own are being attacked and don't seem as reliable.

Overall, no.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,623
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Bella3sp
It just comes across as ignorant. As the contender or instigator, it wouldn't be a 'fun' or 'interesting' debate anymore.
I guess if people have a problem with it, its a different story. But if it makes it easier for you to win, why have a problem with it? I actually met several debaters here that had no problem with me trolling them the entire debate and they still asked for more debates because they get the win. I dont think everyone would have a problem with me not using rebuttals.