California proposes "exit tax" for fleeing refugees.

Author: Greyparrot

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HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
Absolutely not. Most police contracts today are drawn up by a government committee. If contracts were instead drawn up to ensure the public would opt in, they would look nowhere near the same.
explain how. If the police show up and can't help you they just get sued? Maybe their too late, maybe they make a mistake. Policing is a tough job that requires snap decisions. Errors are made pretty much constantly. If they could get sued every time they made one, no one would do it. What you are describing is completely unworkable. And you have yet to offer a single explanation of how it could actually work in practice. You just keep repeating high handed statements of it would be better when I keep giving you specific reasons why it is completely unworkable. 

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@HistoryBuff
I'll make it easy for you then. If a security agency was trying to get you to sign a yearly contract in your neighborhood to serve you, what would that contract look like?
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@Greyparrot
I'll make it easy for you then. If a security agency was trying to get you to sign a yearly contract in your neighborhood to serve you, what would that contract look like?
alright, i give up asking you. I have explained why your concept is unworkable and asked you how it could possibly work. you refuse to do so and keep deflecting. I am just going to take it as given that you have no idea how this could work in the real world. 

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How does any service provider get you to sign a subscription for services? It's by promising you things that they then have to deliver via existing contract law.
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@HistoryBuff
You also never told me what you think "social contract" means.
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@Greyparrot
How does any service provider get you to sign a subscription for services? It's by promising you things that they then have to deliver via existing contract law.
more deflections, more dodging. Instead of answering any of my questions, you just deflect some more. Explain to me how a contract could work for policing. Can you sue them if they aren't there fast enough? you need to tell me how this would work in a way that wouldn't just completely shut down policing. Instead you just keep making vague references to unrelated industries that aren't in any way comparable. 

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 Can you sue them if they aren't there fast enough?
What happens if you have a contract for internet at a certain speed and you don't get it? Can you sue them? I am giving you specifics and you want to take the conversation into the vague nothingness.
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@Greyparrot
What happens if you have a contract for internet at a certain speed and you don't get it? Can you sue them? I am giving you specifics and you want to take the conversation into the vague nothingness.
lol I am asking you specifically how a contract for police would work and you keep talking about completely unrelated industries that are not comparable. And then you accuse me of being vague. Since you can't or wont do that, I will just reiterate that the idea is pointless and couldn't possibly work. And since you refuse to refute anything I say, I am just going to assume you are incapable of doing so. 

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@HistoryBuff
They are not unrelated. The remedies for any contractual work is universal. That's the essence of contractual services.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@HistoryBuff
If someone provides a service or good, regardless of whether it is truly critical; do they get to set the price and use force to extract it from you?
these are public assets. We own them. If we don't like the price, we can easily remove the people in charge of them. It is true you are forced to pay, but you have control.
You did not answer the question.


Why does anyone owe the government anything?
because you are part of society. Anyone who is part of that society is required both by law and social contract to contribute to the prosperity and betterment of that society.
Law is irrelevant, it's a piece of paper that has been justly and unjustly burned by angry victors a thousand times before.

I've signed no social contract and neither have you. If you would sign one where everything you have can be stolen from you and all you get in return is a vote that means nothing you're insane and you should go to some insane place far away from me to die in your folly. Twenty years of two nations one free and one enslaved and the slave nation would evaporate, that's why they build fences to keep people in... or start with exit taxes.


If you don't want to do that, you are free to leave at any time assuming you can find another nation willing to take you, or some deserted island somewhere. You are not forced to pay taxes. You are not forced to be part of society. Only if you want to live here. 
Assuming there isn't an exit tax? rofl

I've got a better idea, I'll keep proving taxation is theft and advocating for liberty from the safety of my anonymity and the moment I get the chance to blow the brains out of these tyrants I'll take it. Why would I cede ground to the slavers? Did I agree they own the Earth? Are they to thank for civilization?

No, they are a blight upon it. A parasite. The antithesis. A disease to be purged.


It is illegal to threaten someone with physical violence for failing to agree to your terms (unless you're a government). This is thus irrelevant to "the rich" (unless they are part of a corruption scheme with the government).
what are you talking about? Our society is full of these threats. If you fail to work, you will be ruthlessly punished. Evicted, starved, left to be sick and die.
Man's natural state is being homeless, starved, becoming ill. None of these things are an attack.

You implied being homeless, starved, and ill (as would be the case if cut off from society) was my just fate for refusing to bow down to the ridiculous demands of the pretenders? If failing to prevent these things were physical violence, then I would not be free to go off somewhere else would I? You aren't free to do X if you get attacked for doing X.

You can't keep your story straight. I can because I've actually thought these things through from first principles.


Since virtually all businesses have been progressively paying less and less, while costs go up, businesses have been driving millions into poverty knowing that their workers have no choice but to work. 
Costs are going up because government is stealing more and more, but people mired in ignorance like yourself take every stroke of the whip as further proof that the lashing must intensify.

Work or death has always been the only choice. Those who think otherwise are those who seek to enslave others through threats or deception. There is still working, just other people working.


Logic agrees with my view. (logic created it)
so let me get this straight, there is literally no organized group in the world that agrees with you. Everyone knows your argument is stupid and would lead to the collapse of life as we know it, but "logic agrees with it". That's the debate version of "my mom thinks i'm cool". 
1.) Ad populum is a fallacy and anyone who knows any history knows it's a fallacy. So this is the debate version of saying you're a gourmet chef and then trying to microwave an egg.

2.) Of course there are groups that agree with me. Hec the US revolution was basically only a slight corruption from the truth.



Government does not require theft. Clear your mind of prejudices you learned as a child and you will see this is obvious.
explain that then. How does a government govern if it cannot collect money with which to do anything? How does it pay anyone to do anything?
Since you've posted this you've been spectacularly failing to debunk Greyparrot's suggestions; but let me put it as generally as possible:

Theft = taking without consent
Fees = taking with consent, as in consent by implicit or explicit contract

If government needs money (and it does) and it's immoral to steal (which it is) then how does government get money? By consent.

Did I mention you should be reading this as if I'm trying to explain something to a five year old? It's that obvious. Anyway:

How do you get consent? You offer something of value in return. A promise of a service for a promise of resources (money).


That implies that people have a right to vote that rape is acceptable. True or false?\
Rape was legal, not that long ago. I just described that to you. And yes, assuming they could convince enough people to support such a measure they could do so again. For example, some states are currently in the process of trying to go backwards and steal women's right to control their own body. that is obviously wrong, but being done right now.

Society still does lots of terrible things that in 50-100 years we will look back on and wonder how people could be so barbaric.
You're ready to be a politician, you refuse to answer a question when you know it will hurt your position. Once again:

Do people have a right to do "terrible things" so long as they do it by majority vote?


You sign a contract to use the roads?
.... Tolls, of all the public services none is more susceptible to moral funding than roads. There is ZERO freeloader problem with roads.

I swear humans never seems so stupid as when it comes to this question. I just don't know how you people are so effectively indoctrinated.

Oh it gets worse:
I mean, think about if they didn't pay for mail and companies couldn't mail out bills or other information. It would wreak havoc on businesses. 
Think about it? THINK about it?!

Have you ever tried to mail something HistoryBuff? Ever?!

You pay postage.

I repeat: You pay postage.

Companies that send out mail, pay for that mail to be delivered.


The average current annual tax form has hundreds of check boxes. It wouldn't be hard.
yes, yes it would. It would be an insanely difficult and bureaucratic task for both average people as well as the government. 
C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R-S

I'm going to turn into brother D if I see another profoundly stupid comment.


No one can guarantee that they can reach you in time to save you from being mugged, or assaulted etc.
They can promise to try, and be paid a bonus for succeeding; moving on...


ADreamOfLiberty
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@HistoryBuff
Here is some more to chew on. A copy paste from previous debates on different forums. I'm sure there was plenty more on DDO but I don't know where to get that archive.

This was about my claim that New York City was wasting their tax income and that if they charged per service people could still afford to maintain the civilization (you know the thing people like HistoryBuff claim is at stake without taxation).

It also contains commentary on how to structure incentives to keep things working and to defeat the freeloader problem.

Police
$5,521,807,171/year as previously established.

So this is how I would propose the main police charter (government action) would be setup.

I would offer (at least) four different funding categories: Basic, patrol, investigations, and support. The last three would have a locality option and are called additionals.

The locality option would be whether you want to fund police activity across the city or just in particular areas (perhaps only where your house and store are located).

Basic - administration overhead, 100 detectives, and at least ~10,000 uniformed officers to respond to 911 calls and perform city wide patrol. The administration costs are $680,243,000. For 10,000 uniforms $1,686,354,000/2. For 100 detectives $9,500,406
Total: 1.533 billion. Per capita: $179 / person*year

Funding this would be the minimum before an emergency failure contingency is triggered. Basically every year at any time in that year anyone can pay (or promise to pay) money for the next year. If the basic budget (1.5 billion) is not met by the end of the year, the police department identifies one of the precincts that paid the least and withdraws active police protection from that area and cuts the baseline to whatever the funding level reached and fires cops.

Then a couple things could happen. The area could be taken over by gangs in which case the police would probably quarantine the area as some kind of post-apocalyptic death-zone. All sane people would leave the area, business would fail within the area, and criminals would migrate out as they run out of loot. People would see what happened to the precinct and pay more, or they would say 'fuck that' and the same thing would keep happening until the city was destroyed (failure mode).

Paying for additionals would not be allowed until the basic funding had been achieved. After basic funding additional funding would be nearly continuous.

If funding for additional patrols in a precinct is $1 million then the police department will assign $1,000,000/$175,242 = 5.7 patrol cars (full time). Add $95,000 and you get a dedicated detective. If funders do not specify a location the department can assign the funds to the locations that they think needs the most help.

If the per capita funding was $600/year the entire operations of the NYPD could be maintained. I believe a stable culture could easily exist where this amount was provided. It is not against human nature.

I would not leave it at that though, I would include systems of criminal insurance and positive/negative feedback to motivate both funders and police. It would also mitigate the freeloader problem significantly.

To start with I would modify the above to add another option, for the investigations additional which specifies whether non-contributors are supported or not. What that means will become clear in a moment.

So the NYPD would offer a $160/year criminal insurance plan. In this basic plan $100 of that goes to the basic police fund while $20 goes to an insurance account (for the whole city). Anyone who subscribes is known as a basic police contributor (BPC or PC1). [the remaining $40 goes to corrections and prosecution]

Under this plan you are entitled to three stolen property investigations per year and an insurance payout which depends on how much is in the insurance fund. An example would be 1:1.5 for unrecovered stolen property up to $5000 and 1:2 for unrecovered stolen property where no conviction was attained. Furthermore you are entitled to $10,000 if you are assaulted and no conviction was attained. A fraud risk exists, but let's be honest, defrauding the police is not a viable strategy long term.

This is a low per capita cost, for a household it would be $316.8. I expect that nearly all citizens would be PC1. For the middle to high earners it is a small price to pay for insurance and low earners tend to be in crime ridden neighborhoods where theft and assault are considerable risks.

At 90% subscription rate the fund would be growing by 0.9* 8,550,405*$20 = $153,900,000/year

Although not enforceable, it is likely that any private insurance companies would not insure anything against theft without at least PC1 because it would mean the police would not make an effort to recover stolen property.

There would be additional levels which would provide much higher payout maxes. ($320 PC2, $640 PC3, $1280 PC4, etc...)

The insurance fund would grow rather quickly for the higher levels and once the fund reaches some arbitrary but consistent point. The money could be used to increase the general efficiency of crime fighting by:
- Offering bonuses to officers and to entire precincts for reaching certain low levels of crime or exceptional police work.
- Offering bounties for information on criminals or tips which prevented a crime
- Installing cameras, RF trackers on expensive items, rewards to convicts who don't re offend (or GPS trackers on them to aid in suppression)

Courts & Corrections
1,325,603,205 for corrections and

121,483,783+61,895,832+97,948,355+59,717,763+10,827,147 = $351,872,880

(Judge salary not considered)

Total: 1.677 billion

Per capita $196.19

Like police I would give people options on how to fund this and link it to the criminal insurance. As noted above $40, $80, $120 were part of the criminal insurance plans.

However a significant portion of the money would come from punishment funds. Essentially a crime is a crime, and some crimes are worse than others; but it costs money to keep people in prison and the people who 'vote' for longer prison terms should fork over some cash.

There will be other criteria before a change in prison terms is enacted and no one's sentence can be extended after being sentenced but one of the checks will be the commitment of funds implied by the extra time.

Even if victim less crimes like prostitution and drug possession somehow make it into the system (which they would not if it was made correctly) people would seriously ask themselves whether it is worth it to keep so many people locked up for "their own good."

Also note that corruption grows easily where the money flows no matter what. That is very true with prisons.

So far we have $800 yearly per capita cost for law and order. That is 7% of the yearly surplus per capita median income. Still have plenty more to go.

ADreamOfLiberty
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Fire Safety

I have no doubt that there is room for savings in most fire departments. Their trucks seem more sparkly than could possibly be necessary. They seem to have more people on full time alert than the actual occurrence of dangerous fires makes necessary. Still this is a rather important service so I'll leave the total budget alone and just accept it.

TOTAL PER YEAR: $1,936,932,000
PER CAPITA PER YEAR: $226.53

TOTAL BURDEN PER CAPITA: $1,068.51 /year /person

In practice fire risk is strongly linked to architecture and activity. It thus follows that fire protection should be paid for by the same social unit that owns the architecture and regulates the activity.

An apartment complex pays for the whole building, the price is rolled into the rent. A office building owned by a company pays. Etc..

The fee for fire protection, like police protection, should be bundled with the concept of insurance. What people want is saftey from property and life loss so that's what the service should be. The fee would be higher for structures and activities which the fire department determines to be more risky.

The fire department would publish safety standards. The minimum would be required to buy the service. The recommended would provide a discount upon inspection.

If a fire breaks out in one structure and could spread to another those who are responsible are legally liable for the damages including the fire department response. If they paid for the service though that liability would be limited. Thus paying for the service would be almost necessary in terms of liability (in the same way that car or health insurance is almost necessary, law aside).

The fire department will be motivated to remain efficient by competing against private anti-fire measures, i.e. if they are very wasteful it would be come cheaper just to make your structure completely fire-proof. Yes it is possible, just expensive.

EMTs

EMS is actually part of the above fire saftey budget because in new york... well that's just something they do. So I will be perfectly justified in being rather light in this section because it has already been accounted for in a very real sense.

It does make sense to dispatch ambulances to any emergency just in case. In that sense it does make sense to associate them with other emergency services. However as far as paying for it, it should be strongly associated with other medical costs.

So I would propose that having an ambulance show up to any emergency should be part of an emergency response fee just as new york implies by having it be part of the fire department. However those ambulances would be idle most of the time, they would 'rent out' their service to medical organizations and it would simply be another medical cost.

I say this knowing this is actually how it already works, people get charged for getting carried by an ambulance and the health insurance takes care of it. Aside from the horrid inflation of all medical costs being caused by government subsidy this seems fairly efficient.

If the emergency response service becomes wasteful they could easily be kept in line by an efficient private ambulance service. (there should be a mechanism by which people can opt to buy fire insurance without the ambulance)

Roads & Public Transportation


$15,465,717,000 was appropriated for the entire state of new york in 2017. We can assume they spent most if not all of it.

I will divide by the whole state population as opposed to the city proper. The density of roads in the city is high but also less roads are needed in general because there is less 'useless' distance to cover. In any case there is no doubt that a square foot of asphalt in the city is utilized a hell of a lot more than in the countryside so dividing by the whole population will show a bias towards greater expense if anything.

$779.12 per capita bringing us to:
TOTAL BURDEN PER CAPITA: $1847.64 /year /person

To simply try to extract a fee from each person for that would be inane. There should be a clear delineation between new projects and maintenance.

Maintenance should be a pay-as-used fee (they call these 'tolls') based on the wear on the road (or else flat per vehicle). This is not likely to be a big problem to implement given the ever rising IT know-how. It can perhaps be extremly fine tuned in a city like new york, down to which avenue you favor.

A major part of the budget is new projects though, those should be paid for as a government project. Plans formulated, funds secured by donation or by offering licenses to use the road without tolls for X number of years. (like go fund me, but with legal protection).

For the public transport look at this handy chart (on page II-1):

The plan here is very simple, that pie chart that shows where the dollars came from should be "100% farebox revenue"

The chart showing expense by category should be a lot thicker in the "Non labor" area... you know in terms of buying and fueling busses, building and maintaining underground train networks etc...

is the kind of thing people would just not tolerate if they had a choice.

The fares would grow beyond the middle class and the whole thing would shut down until this wasteful gunk is cleaned out. Still I have no problem adding the farebox revenue as a per capita expense. I do think that you can run a mass transit system with that much when you aren't paying 19,000 people six figures.

TOTAL FARE: $6,271,000,000
FARE PER CAPITA: $733.41

TOTAL BURDEN PER CAPITA: $2,581.05 /year /person

Utilities (electric/water/sewage)

Care is needed here, the city does not provide free power and utilities right now. That is all already included in the cost of living (30k). The only price we are looking at here is government spending on infrastructure.


i.e. it's already voluntary and utilizes no tax money (at least not officially).


TOTAL WATER/SEWAGE: $1,450,101,000
PER CAPITA WATER/SEWAGE: $169.59

TOTAL BURDEN PER CAPITA: $2750.64 /year /person

Again it should be tied to actual usage where ever possible, as it already is in most places.

Poverty

Once again for the sake of simplicity I will simply assume that the DHS is the upper limit of how much it would cost to give people the opportunity to sleep somewhere other than the streets and eat something other than garbage. I have a strong suspicion that many 'compassionate' people on the left are more interested in getting these people to the voting booths rather than getting them jobs .

That is not important in this analysis since I am willing to accept this budget. I do think in a free system that government aid programs would have to prove their effectiveness to donors vs private charities or risk being defunded.

TOTAL FOR HOMELESS: $1,297,924,000
PER CAPITA FOR HOMELESS: $151.79

TOTAL BURDEN PER CAPITA: $2902.43 /year /person

So there we have it. Maybe New York wouldn't be the shining city on the hill if it had only the services I enumerated. But it wouldn't be chaos, it wouldn't be anarchy.

So what about the freeloader problem? I assert that the freeloader problem was almost fully mitigated in each category. A quick review:
Police: Insurance against criminal activity + warning survival mechanism of defunding a precinct. (moderate freeloader problem, a cultural taboo will probably form from cyclic close calls with insufficient police presence)
Fire Safety: Mitigate liability, insure onsite assets against fire damage (minimal freeloader problem because of 'horror' stories where someone has to payout big because a fire in their building spread)
EMT: Health insurance (zero freeloader problem)
Roads: Tolls and voluntary pledges before breaking ground (zero freeloader problem)
Public Transport: Fares actually pay for the service, if you want poor people to ride you buy them tickets (zero freeloader problem)
Power: You pay for what you use, profits are used by power authority to maintain infrastructure (zero freeloader problem)
Sewage/Water: You pay for the water you use, you pay a fixed fee for a certain drainage limit, profits used to maintain infrastructure (zero freeloader problem)
Poverty: Price not very high (by comparison), no freeloader problem because this is charity.

So we take the burden and divide by the disposable income.

$2902.43/$11,427 = 0.253 = 25.3%

On average as little as 1/4 could pay for these services if they had to. If half of people on average paid for these services they would still have half their disposable income.

Considering the only serious freeloader problem is the police this is quite plausible, simply put if anywhere close to a majority of people actually want to live in a dense city they will pay for the police. If 1/4 or less of the people want to live there with police protection the rest should get the hell out... and they would when they found themselves in precincts without police protection.

This analysis doesn't account for families explicitly but that is because they were factored out in the beginning. In a family some people don't have an income, but in reality the adults make much more than 33k per year. On average it is equivalent to the adults and children each making 33k per year.

This analysis does not account for wealth distribution. The rich are far more capable of offsetting freeloaders (by simply paying the freeloaders share). The poor are far less capable of offsetting freeloaders (as they can barely pay their own fair share).

The system could not tolerate many rich freeloaders, but it doesn't have to. Rich people (and companies) have the most to protect from aggression and will be the last to forgo the police protection layers and the insurance they provide.

If poor communities find police intervention counter-productive they need only stop paying and handle it themselves. It is my belief that there are many people in urban environments who have no good reason to be there. Urbanization is to allow for synergistic trading and energy efficiency. Rent controls and other wealth redistribution policies only serve to keep people around when they can't pay their own way. It would be a far better strategy to pay the same subsidies to relocate them to somewhere where their labor commands higher buying power.
HistoryBuff
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You did not answer the question.
because the question made no sense. My answer explained why the question made no sense. You aren't forced to pay a specific price. You can vote out the people in charge and bring in other people to run things if you don't like how it is being run. 

I've signed no social contract and neither have you. 
nope, but by choosing to remain here, you are agreeing to it. If you don't want to agree to it, you can leave. It's really simple. 

Assuming there isn't an exit tax? rofl
and there isn't. I'm assuming you don't make 10 million per year. 

I've got a better idea, I'll keep proving taxation is theft and advocating for liberty from the safety of my anonymity and the moment I get the chance to blow the brains out of these tyrants I'll take it.
translation: I'll keep screaming like a lunatic and be ignored by everyone. 

Man's natural state is being homeless, starved, becoming ill. None of these things are an attack.
that's just stupid. Man's natural state is working together as a group or a tribe and everyone contributing to that group's success. Your argument is that you don't want to do that. You are the one that doesn't like man's natural state. 

2.) Of course there are groups that agree with me. Hec the US revolution was basically only a slight corruption from the truth.
lol the american revolution was about no taxation without representation. IE they had no problem with taxes, they just wanted to have a say in the government in exchange for those taxes. The british insisted on charging them taxes but giving them no representation in government. So no, they absolutely had nothing to do with your nonsense. 

Theft = taking without consent
this is false. Theft is illegally taking without consent. If you steal something, and then police come and take it back, are the police stealing? They are taking something from you without your consent. By your definition they would be. 

.... Tolls, of all the public services none is more susceptible to moral funding than roads. There is ZERO freeloader problem with roads.
this only works in high traffic areas. It is profitable to build roads near major cities and charge a toll. It is not profitable to build roads in rural areas because they don't get enough traffic. If we relied only on companies to build roads, much of the country would not be useable. 

Companies that send out mail, pay for that mail to be delivered.
uh huh. And without government intervention, large chunks of the world would lose mail access because it isn't profitable to deliver there. If an area is far enough away from a large population center, then it isn't profitable to deliver there. So they won't. The profit motive and the public good do not overlap.

yes, yes it would. It would be an insanely difficult and bureaucratic task for both average people as well as the government. 
C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R-S
come on, you're really 12 aren't you. you think "C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R-S" will make it easy for an average person to decide which of dozens and dozens of contracts they need to sign and which they don't? And that it would make it easy for government services to do their jobs when they have to constantly try to figure out who they're dealing with and if they are up to date on their payments before doing their job? Only a small child could believe that. 

They can promise to try, and be paid a bonus for succeeding; moving on...
gotcha. So you acknowledge that it would work exactly the way it does now. All they have to do is say they tried, and they aren't held liable. 


ADreamOfLiberty
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@HistoryBuff
You did not answer the question.
because the question made no sense. My answer explained why the question made no sense. You aren't forced to pay a specific price. You can vote out the people in charge and bring in other people to run things if you don't like how it is being run. 
I can vote. I can't vote people out because too many are programmed to be idiots when it comes to the nature and purpose of government and economy.

Just like a worker can buy shares, but he'll never raise his wage that way.

Since you dropped it, I'm bringing it back. Let me ask the question in another context:

five horny men without objective ethics and one woman are the only residents of a tiny island nation. They all vote for a president and the president says females must engage in sex at least once a week. Of course it's the law, and those who break the law are subject to punishment such as hard labor and forfeit of property.

Now, when you say "You aren't forced to pay a specific price" because "you can vote"; are you claiming that the presence of a vote means there is no force against the individual?

Is this woman being raped or not?


I've signed no social contract and neither have you. 
nope, but by choosing to remain here, you are agreeing to it. If you don't want to agree to it, you can leave. It's really simple. 
That simple? But you missed something. You aren't leaving either. Therefore you agree to my social contract. Glad we solved that problem *whew*

(Also the woman on the island could run away to a nearby island with two horny men without objective ethics)


translation: I'll keep screaming like a lunatic and be ignored by everyone.
Better get to ignoring because the longer this goes on the more obvious your dodging becomes.


Man's natural state is being homeless, starved, becoming ill. None of these things are an attack.
that's just stupid. Man's natural state is working together as a group or a tribe and everyone contributing to that group's success.
If man wasn't freezing and dying he wouldn't need to work alone or together.


Your argument is that you don't want to do that. You are the one that doesn't like man's natural state. 
Of course I want society, I want society at its best: civilization.

What makes civilization superior to mere society and what defines it is equal liberty by law. You are a pawn for people who don't like equal liberty. Your handlers don't own civilization.


2.) Of course there are groups that agree with me. Hec the US revolution was basically only a slight corruption from the truth.
lol the american revolution was about no taxation without representation. IE they had no problem with taxes, they just wanted to have a say in the government in exchange for those taxes. The british insisted on charging them taxes but giving them no representation in government. So no, they absolutely had nothing to do with your nonsense. 
They would still have revolted representation or no if faced with a 10% GDP tax. I know it, if you're telling the truth about being a HistoryBuff you know it too.


Theft = taking without consent
this is false. Theft is illegally taking without consent.
Then the concentration camps were not  murder, because they wrote laws before they did it.


If you steal something, and then police come and take it back, are the police stealing? They are taking something from you without your consent. By your definition they would be.
As if a more precise definition is at all relevant. Red herring.


.... Tolls, of all the public services none is more susceptible to moral funding than roads. There is ZERO freeloader problem with roads.
this only works in high traffic areas. It is profitable to build roads near major cities and charge a toll. It is not profitable to build roads in rural areas because they don't get enough traffic. If we relied only on companies to build roads, much of the country would not be useable. 
If a road doesn't get enough traffic to pay for itself then we don't need it. (face palm X1)

It's not who builds the roads, private contractors almost always build the roads. It's whether they are built with stolen funds in a system that defeats corruption.


companies that send out mail, pay for that mail to be delivered.
uh huh. And without government intervention, large chunks of the world would lose mail access because it isn't profitable to deliver there.
Whether or not it is profitable depends on the postage charged.... (face palm X3)


The profit motive and the public good do not overlap.
They do when the public is the one hiring.

It's your indoctrinated brain that perceives what I'm saying as "let the CEOs and boardrooms decide everything".

It's more like "Let the people decide what they want weighted by the cost" as opposed to "let the corrupt protection racket steal from almost everyone and claim they're doing it for the public good"


yes, yes it would. It would be an insanely difficult and bureaucratic task for both average people as well as the government. 
C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R-S
come on, you're really 12 aren't you. you think "C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R-S" will make it easy for an average person to decide which of dozens and dozens of contracts they need to sign and which they don't?
Yes. There doesn't need to be dozens of contracts. Just one for each level of government with options preserved and accessed by computer.


And that it would make it easy for government services to do their jobs when they have to constantly try to figure out who they're dealing with and if they are up to date on their payments before doing their job? Only a small child could believe that.
You can drive down a road at full speed and a particular pattern of electromagnetic reflection from your vehicle associates the car with your person and your toll account. The toll is then charged to your account. There are hundreds of thousands of people that use the road and in less than a second a computer found you and executed a voluntary (and thus moral) payment for public service.

Best start believing in "C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R" stories small child, you're in one.


They can promise to try, and be paid a bonus for succeeding; moving on...
gotcha. So you acknowledge that it would work exactly the way it does now. All they have to do is say they tried, and they aren't held liable. 
No, they actually have to try. How much would be specified by national standard contracts and specific additions (you ever seen how building codes work?)

Also (and more importantly) the difference that matters is that they aren't funded by stolen money.

When you can't steal the money, there is a basic level of "oh shit we actually have to do our job" because if nothing else the people will stop paying for your crappy department and start another.
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I can vote. I can't vote people out because too many are programmed to be idiots when it comes to the nature and purpose of government and economy.
so you acknowledge that you do have a say in how all these services are run. Question settled. 

Is this woman being raped or not?
just because 5 people say they are forming a new government does not make it so. you are now going  into an argument of what makes a nation, which is a whole different rabbit hole I don't intend to go down. 

That simple? But you missed something. You aren't leaving either. Therefore you agree to my social contract. Glad we solved that problem *whew*
By staying, we both agree to THE social contract. and yes, i'm glad that is solved. 

What makes civilization superior to mere society and what defines it is equal liberty by law. You are a pawn for people who don't like equal liberty. Your handlers don't own civilization.
there are problems with all civilizations. I don't pretend ours is perfect. But you seem to pretend like yours would be. Which is silly. I want to fix our broken system to work better. You want to tear everything down and live in make believe.

If a road doesn't get enough traffic to pay for itself then we don't need it. 
this is an example of how to force everyone into a smaller and smaller net. Making it more and more expensive to try to live outside of major urban areas. I guess we don't need farmers. 

Yes. There doesn't need to be dozens of contracts. Just one for each level of government with options preserved and accessed by computer.
but you want people to be able to opt out of every single government service don't you? So one for the police, one for the firefighters, one for the libraries, one for the roads, one for the military etc. If you are suggesting that people should only be offered 1 contract with each level of government, then how would that work? If you opt out of a contract with your municipality, do you just have to leave that municipality? Or do you just get banned from all municipal services like roads?

You can drive down a road at full speed and a particular pattern of electromagnetic reflection from your vehicle associates the car with your person and your toll account. The toll is then charged to your account. There are hundreds of thousands of people that use the road and in less than a second a computer found you and executed a voluntary (and thus moral) payment for public service.
and how do you propose to apply that to police? Should they be required to face scan you to make sure you've paid your police contract before they stop you from being murdered?

Also (and more importantly) the difference that matters is that they aren't funded by stolen money.
I fail to see how it would be any different. If you have to pay them or be a free target for rape and murder, then you don't actually have a choice. The only people who would have a choice would be those who can afford private security. 

When you can't steal the money, there is a basic level of "oh shit we actually have to do our job" because if nothing else the people will stop paying for your crappy department and start another.
Ahh so you are suggesting there would be no government police force at all? You just want there to be an unlimited number of armed gangs who can be hired to offer protection services. that sounds safe and completely not something that would be massively abused. 
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I can vote. I can't vote people out because too many are programmed to be idiots when it comes to the nature and purpose of government and economy.
so you acknowledge that you do have a say in how all these services are run. Question settled

Lol, no it isn't. He said he doesn't have a say about voting service providers out because other people vote against his interests. Meaning he can't cancel bad government services if others are providing welfare to bad government services and rewarding bad service with subsidies and votes.

A checkbox would solve this problem.

When you can't steal the money, there is a basic level of "oh shit we actually have to do our job" because if nothing else the people will stop paying for your crappy department and start another.

Ahh so you are suggesting there would be no government police force at all?
Don't pretend this isn't another one of your classic false dichotomies...

Government doesn't have to confiscate production to get funds. There are many ways it can get revenue.

  1. Natural Resource Revenues: Governments can generate income from the extraction and sale of natural resources such as oil, gas, minerals, or timber. Royalties, licensing fees, and revenue-sharing agreements can be implemented to ensure the government receives a fair share of the proceeds.
  2. Government-Owned Enterprises: Governments can establish and operate profitable enterprises in sectors such as telecommunications, utilities, transportation, or banking. These enterprises can generate revenue that is then directed back to the government.
  3. Sovereign Wealth Funds: Governments can establish sovereign wealth funds (SWFs) by investing surplus revenues or proceeds from natural resources. SWFs manage and invest these funds to generate returns, which can contribute to government revenue.
  4. Tourism: Governments can promote tourism and develop infrastructure to attract international visitors. Revenues can be generated through entrance fees to national parks, visa fees, hotel taxes, or sales taxes on tourism-related goods and services.
  5. Development Assistance: Governments can receive financial assistance from international donors or development organizations to support various projects and programs. This can include grants, concessional loans, or technical assistance for specific initiatives.
  6. Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs): Governments can enter into partnerships with the private sector for infrastructure development, as mentioned earlier. In some cases, the private sector may finance, build, and operate infrastructure projects in exchange for a share of revenue generated by the project.
  7. Voluntary Contributions: Governments can establish programs that allow individuals, businesses, or organizations to voluntarily contribute funds to support specific government initiatives or projects. These contributions can be made through dedicated funds, donation drives, or voluntary tax check-off programs. This approach relies on individuals willingly donating to causes they support, supplementing government revenues.
  8. Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) with Charitable Organizations: Governments can collaborate with charitable organizations to fund and implement certain projects or programs. Charitable organizations can contribute funding or resources alongside government investments to address social or environmental challenges. These partnerships can leverage the expertise and networks of charitable organizations while sharing the financial responsibility.

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When...not IF...the government runs out of sources to borrow, the public will necessarily have to look to another system to provide for the general welfare as the antiquated tax and spend model fails.
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Now, when you say "You aren't forced to pay a specific price" because "you can vote"; are you claiming that the presence of a vote means there is no force against the individual?
Votes, in our system of government, can be ruled unconstitutional by the third branch of government you jackass.

That’s why white people can’t vote to deny black people the right to vote.

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White peepo made the constitution. They can break it too.
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Lol, no it isn't. He said he doesn't have a say about voting service providers out because other people vote against his interests.
you just keep repeating that he does have a say, but then weirdly say the opposite too. he has a vote. That is him having a say in how this works. Your objection seems to be that he doesn't have unilateral say in how it works, but that is democracy for you. 

A checkbox would solve this problem.
no, it would make problems much, much worse. As I keep explaining to you and you keep evading. 

Government doesn't have to confiscate production to get funds. There are many ways it can get revenue.
sure there are other ways governments can get funds. But on the whole, they are much less reliable and can raise much less funding. There is a reason every country on the planet uses taxes. The only ones that don't heavily rely on them are the ones that make inordinate amounts of money off natural resource sales, like Saudi Arabia. 
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And Norway.
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When...not IF...the government runs out of sources to borrow, the public will necessarily have to look to another system to provide for the general welfare as the antiquated tax and spend model fails.
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And Norway.
norway has a sovereign wealth fund. They also have a base income tax of 22%. So no, they still rely heavily on taxes. 

When...not IF...the government runs out of sources to borrow, the public will necessarily have to look to another system to provide for the general welfare as the antiquated tax and spend model fails.
lol so if a reliable method of raising revenue fails, we will go to a ridiculous one that can't possibly work? Sure.... and we will all eat rainbows and cake. Bottom line, there is economic system where the government does not collect taxes. Any such system would certainly fail and either collapse, or it would be so underfunded that neighboring states would take them over. 
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lol so if a reliable method of raising revenue fails, we will go to a ridiculous one that can't possibly work?

Another false dichotomy. You are really good at those.
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I can vote. I can't vote people out because too many are programmed to be idiots when it comes to the nature and purpose of government and economy.
so you acknowledge that you do have a say in how all these services are run. Question settled. 
I have the same say as the victim of a gang rape.

I can say I object, and then the majority can laugh tell me it's for the greater good and fuck me anyway.

Question settled.



Is this woman being raped or not?
just because 5 people say they are forming a new government does not make it so. you are now going  into an argument of what makes a nation, which is a whole different rabbit hole I don't intend to go down. 
You don't intend to go any direction would would illustrate the absurdity of the principles you rely on to slavery.

At what number of voters does the will of the majority become morally infallible? I assume more than the population of Germany in 1933.


That simple? But you missed something. You aren't leaving either. Therefore you agree to my social contract. Glad we solved that problem *whew*
By staying, we both agree to THE social contract. and yes, i'm glad that is solved. 
Nope, I decided the Earth is mine so anyone who stays is consenting to my social contract. "THE social contract" lol, what did god write it? Or maybe it was a bunch of people with guns who killed anyone who disagreed. Yea...


What makes civilization superior to mere society and what defines it is equal liberty by law. You are a pawn for people who don't like equal liberty. Your handlers don't own civilization.
there are problems with all civilizations. I don't pretend ours is perfect. But you seem to pretend like yours would be.
It would be more perfect, just like the USA was more perfect than the British Empire, and the British Empire was more perfect than the Roman Empire.

So many regressives style themselves "progressive", what are they progressing towards? They have no direction, only contradictions and incoherent excuses for principles (like the democratic rape you're hiding from).

Interaction by consent is what allowed civilization. Civilization promoting interaction by consent is what makes it strong. Changing things to increase interaction by consent and decrease interaction without consent (extortion and fraud) is objective progress.

I lay out the perfect ideal because I can (and you can too) abstract the essence of civilization. We will never live in a society without crime; but the reason our current sick civilization is so sick is because it doesn't even have the correct ideal. Half (or more) of the people are too stupid or misinformed to understand they're pulling the wrong way. I'm talking about you.


Which is silly. I want to fix our broken system to work better. You want to tear everything down and live in make believe.
With my make believe computerized tolls and my make believe shipping fees.



If a road doesn't get enough traffic to pay for itself then we don't need it. 
this is an example of how to force everyone into a smaller and smaller net. Making it more and more expensive to try to live outside of major urban areas. I guess we don't need farmers. 
Think for more than two seconds at a time.

If we need farmers to sell us food, then we need transportation of the food. There is profit in selling the food in the city which means there is profit in transporting the food to the city.

Therefore even if it's only trucks paying the tolls, roads will be built.

This is not "just like it always works" because corrupt government doesn't just build roads, it also builds useless roads, and it also launders money to lobbyist and family through road contractors, and maybe there is a better way to transport food than roads but nobody has the resources to try that when the government steals your money and spends 5% of it on roads.


Yes. There doesn't need to be dozens of contracts. Just one for each level of government with options preserved and accessed by computer.
but you want people to be able to opt out of every single government service don't you?
Of course. Even you admitted you'd let me live in the wild.

The difference is that I don't advocate robbing people blind because they came down from the mountain to trade for a blanket.

You pay for what you use. You pay for what you care about. It's the job of government to solve the freeloader problem morally when it rears it's head the same way it's the government's job to stop crime without presuming guilt or warrantless search and seizure.

That's the game. Build a civilization without violating the rights you claim to be protecting.


So one for the police, one for the firefighters, one for the libraries, one for the roads, one for the military etc.
And multiple tiers within each, and different flavors of many. For instance there are park rangers, beat cops, detectives, etc... all sometimes overlapping in duties and jurisdiction.


If you are suggesting that people should only be offered 1 contract with each level of government, then how would that work? If you opt out of a contract with your municipality, do you just have to leave that municipality? Or do you just get banned from all municipal services like roads?
A contract is a unit of agreement. You don't have to keep signing different documents to change your service preferences, that's all I meant by that.

There is no reason to refuse to sign the social contract for any level of government is the social contract does not attempt to irrationally bundle services.

The creation of closed communities depends upon consent of all original claim-holders. A municipality could be like an apartment building, in which case people don't have a right to live there without signing the contract or it could be simply a more localized general government in which case people do have a right to live within it's "area of interest" without signing the contract.

And before you say something like "well why aren't nation states just giant closed communities?"

Because they're too damn big to claim all that land. If there was any alternative they would dissolve almost instantly because despite representations to the contrary, people aren't actually happy about how governments behave. In fact their wastefulness and petty tyrannies are deeply imprinted into the minds of just about everyone except freshly indoctrinated young-lings who haven't produced a damn thing in their life.

You people are the minority, you can have your gated community where you don't get to opt out of anything or choose what public strategy to support. If you all got together it would be maybe a New York sized area, and your kids would abandon the place.

No need to argue about that. If you really believe people want to be part of that kind of system then given the choice they'll sign up and you can recreate this system with the only difference being people actually signed that social contract you imply exists.

If the bird wants to stay, open the window and prove it.


You can drive down a road at full speed and a particular pattern of electromagnetic reflection from your vehicle associates the car with your person and your toll account. The toll is then charged to your account. There are hundreds of thousands of people that use the road and in less than a second a computer found you and executed a voluntary (and thus moral) payment for public service.
and how do you propose to apply that to police? Should they be required to face scan you to make sure you've paid your police contract before they stop you from being murdered?
If you had read the "Police" part of my copypaste you would know that the answer is: No.

Since the only rational way to protect some is to go after criminals and thus protect all a freeloader problem exists.

To solve the free-loader problem maximize the locality of service and associate police protection with insurance against criminal activity as well as courtesy services.

For example, say something of yours is stolen. You don't pay for police in any way. You can still report the crime (the police would want to know anyway). They may arrest the thief and find your stolen goods. They have no obligation to return them to you. They also have no obligation to chase the guy down if he flees the area.

Now on the other hand something of yours is stolen. You pay for basic police protection. You report the crime. If the police can't recover your stolen goods, you're entitled to compensation from the insurance fund. If they do find it, they are obligated to return it to you. Since you're police supporter the cops involved in solving the case and/or bringing the thief to justice are eligible for bonuses.

Thus the police do not stubbornly ignore crimes against freeloaders, but they do have every reason to prioritize restitution for supporters.

Just as an emergency room saves your life before payment is received the police will stop lawbreaking when they can (by obligation) on the completely true assumption that the faster criminals are behind bars the sooner the community will be safe (and the police want a safe community because they get paid more when the insurance fund maxes out).


Also (and more importantly) the difference that matters is that they aren't funded by stolen money.
I fail to see how it would be any different. If you have to pay them or be a free target for rape and murder, then you don't actually have a choice.
That is not my suggestion for an effective system, but even then there would be a choice just as there is still a choice when it's work for a single company or starve.

Other people are not responsible for giving you good options. They are only violating your rights if they take away options that don't involve them. In other words they don't have a duty to feed you, but it's a violation of your rights to prevent you from feeding yourself or making a trade with someone else.


The only people who would have a choice would be those who can afford private security.
If not funding any police is unthinkable (which is not what we've seen recently) then what is the harm in giving people the choice?

You can't have it both ways (and this razor is extremely common when I debate this subject). Either most people agree with what government does and will do the same thing without being threatened, or they don't. The only possible reason to use force is on the premise that you need to force people to do what's good for them, and that's not very liberal is it?


When you can't steal the money, there is a basic level of "oh shit we actually have to do our job" because if nothing else the people will stop paying for your crappy department and start another.
Ahh so you are suggesting there would be no government police force at all?
I think the "start another" indicated that they would start another. In reality there would always be multiple law enforcement organizations running at the same time in roughly the same area.

If one is so incompetent and riddled with corruption that they just won't do they're job it may be easier just to can the whole organization and rely on others while you start from scratch.


You just want there to be an unlimited number of armed gangs who can be hired to offer protection services. that sounds safe and completely not something that would be massively abused. 

FBI
ATF
DEA
USMS
BOP
CIA
NSA
IRS
CBP
ICE
FDA
TSA

You want to talk about abuse? I'm not sure the server's database has room.


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Now, when you say "You aren't forced to pay a specific price" because "you can vote"; are you claiming that the presence of a vote means there is no force against the individual?
[IwantRooseveltagain] Votes, in our system of government, can be ruled unconstitutional by the third branch of government you jackass.

That’s why white people can’t vote to deny black people the right to vote.
This is incredible, but IWRA you've actually made a relevant point.

You are absolutely right, the United States of America is not a pure democracy (or a pure republic).

It is also constitutional, and through the bill of rights there is an absolute moral code of sorts even if it is sorely incomplete.

That was a vast improvement in comparison to previous governments even the republics and democracies.

Why?

Because social morality is objective and it is not equivalent to "whatever the majority says".

Rape is rape, even when the majority wants it.

Theft is theft, even when the majority wants it.

Murder, like lynching a black man, is murder even when the majority wants it.

The problem with the US constitution is not that it is too rigid, it is not rigid enough in the right ways. Securing the blessings of liberty is the purpose of government.  Anything else government may do is fringe benefits. Thus the ideal government is bound by a constitution and balance of power designed to make the violation of liberty unlikely and unstable. The only purpose of democracy in such a government is as a tool to make unconstitutional behavior unstable.

Zero moral authority arises from democracy just as zero moral authority arises from monarchy or religious institution.

Civilization hasn't reached it's final form, but to take the next step we need to purge the known fallacies and contradictions from the theory.
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I love how people insist you can't opt out of failing government services, but isn't that exactly what fleeing Californians are doing? Opting out of the broken California system?
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I love how people insist you can't opt out of failing government services, but isn't that exactly what fleeing Californians are doing? Opting out of the broken California system?
Yes that's what they're doing, and competition between the states has boiled down to "the freest for longest wins", it's been an enormous stabilizing factor in US history.

Unfortunately the other states are all infected and the federal government is the worst of all.

It's utterly absurd that the federal government is more than 1/4th of a state's per capita spending anyway.

What does the federal government do for you? All those things the sheeple list off as "essential to civilization" are done by states, cities, and counties.

In other words, it's getting worse and they won't need you to be in California to bleed you dry if they control the federal government.
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I love how people insist you can't opt out of failing government services, but isn't that exactly what fleeing Californians are doing? Opting out of the broken California system?
lol that is exactly what I said. I said if you don't like the way the system is run you can vote to change it or leave. All I got back was crying. Then you say how great it is that you can leave and go to a state that runs 95% the same way. The double think is amazing. 
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We are also 98.8 percent monkeys by DNA. The other small % matters.