Ready, go:
Given what you know about Christianity, what are logical reasons you won't become a Christian?
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@YouFound_Lxam
I wasn't taught to think that I was one.
The acceptance of archaic religious ideology, is in most cases based upon non-sense that children are brainwashed with.
While I was an atheist, the main justification for not accepting any religion was that it seemed like God was cruel, that there was no proof that God exists and that plenty of people who believed in God were bad people.
By pure luck, I ran into Bible. Before that, I didnt know much about Christianity. However, I knew about Jesus being important for Christians so I wanted to read about him specifically.
It was simply amazing to read. It opened my mind to a whole new world.
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@Best.Korea
Gnostic Christians reject the Christian demiurge because of his poor morals and ethicks.
Christians always run from moral debates. That hypocrisy of them remaining in a religion they cannot do apologetics for proves Christianity to be immoral.
It began ok, and in fact was the best around, but supernatural thinking screwed it up.
Regards
DL
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@YouFound_Lxam
I am and have been raised to be one, but I know that if I wasn't with the family and circumstances I'm in, I probably wouldn't be one.
I've always wanted to know, why, why, why is everything the way it is. I always question authority, and I don't like to just do what I'm told without knowing why. If I was an atheist, I wouldn't believe in the Big Bang since it's an asinine theory that can easily be disproven, but I probably wouldn't believe in God without proof that he exists.
I'd question who created God. Who gave him the power to create, and why he'd let evil come to the world if his creations were supposedly perfect.
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@Rieka
I can answer your questions:
God exists because how would anything exist without a God like figure the idea that reality has gone on forever and repeated itself is wrong, because then matter comes from basically nothing.
No one created God because he doesn't exist like you and me. Imagine time, space and matter exist in a tiny little box. God exists outside of that box and created that box.
The box is the universe. In this scenario.
As for your question about evil. If God interfered with evil entering the world, than he would have taken away man's free will, and in turn taken away true love, which was the purpose of creating us in the first place. Love goes both ways, and love doesn't work unless both sides choose love. And you can't choose love without free will. Man chose to sin, and not love therefore letting sin in as the consequence.
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@YouFound_Lxam
I 'think when I was younger, it was Nihilism and Egoism, even while believing it to be true, but not following it,
. .
Now I 'still have the Egoism and Nihilism, but my faith has faded, that now I've also Materialism and a lack of belief in Christianity being true.
- Resurrection didn't happen.
- Has not been demonstrated that our universe exhibits signs of either teleology nor a singular beginning.
- The problem of gratuitous evil.
- Epistemic bar is too high such that practically nothing would convince me.
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@YouFound_Lxam
what are logical reasons you won't become a Christian?
Because Jesus was a Jew. Nowhere in the four gospels does the word-" Christian " even appear. And the word Christian only appears 3-4 times after the crucifixion.
Jesus failed on all count to fulfil what was expected of a "Messiah".
Jesus was man that believed, or was led to believe that he was rightful heir to the throne of Jerusalem and the title "son of god".
PS: I was Christened in infancy but have never been a practicing Christian. And after reading and studying "religion", the NT in particular there is nothing at all in all of those 7959 verses that convinces me that I should become a practicing Christian and neither did any amount of brainwashing by haughty 'holier than thou' Pastors or Priests.
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@YouFound_Lxam
I have wondered a lot about that, so thank you for those answers.
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@YouFound_Lxam
God exists because how would anything exist without a God like figure the idea that reality has gone on forever and repeated itself is wrong, because then matter comes from basically nothing.
Argument from incredulity.
No one created God because he doesn't exist like you and me. Imagine time, space and matter exist in a tiny little box. God exists outside of that box and created that box.The box is the universe. In this scenario.
Special pleading.
And you can't choose love without free will.
What happens to people who die without loving god? If the answer is any sort of punishment or unequal treatment of their immortal souls, then what you're talking about is awful close to an abusive relationship and extortion.
Knowing what I know and having lived as a Jew for a long time now, there is no logical reason that I WOULD become a Christian.
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@Bones
Well stated.
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@Stephen
Also well stated.
Putin is a Christian.
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@ludofl3x
Argument from incredulity.
We are intelligent life in the universe. So, how can unintelligent life, create intelligent life? Thats not how it works.
In order for a watch to be made (which is a very complicated piece of equipment) there has to be a watch maker. There is no other way to create it, no matter what the universe throws at it.
We are far more intelligent than a watch, and there is no way that any kind of explosion could create our complicated brains that even we cannot understand.
What happens to people who die without loving god? If the answer is any sort of punishment or unequal treatment of their immortal souls, then what you're talking about is awful close to an abusive relationship and extortion.
God gave us life. And in turn, all he asks for is a loving relationship with him. Choosing not to love him then you going to hell, isn't abusive.
Let's not forget that we all sin and make bad decisions. And because of those bad decisions, we deserve hell.
God is saying, that since, we are all destined to go to hell, and he still loves us, he is offering a way out, by sending his son as a sacrifice for all of our sins and giving us the chance to love him again. Us choosing to deny that gift is our own faults, and he is offering a way out.
God doesn't send anyone anywhere. We send ourselves to either heaven or hell.
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@YouFound_Lxam
We are intelligent life in the universe. So, how can unintelligent life, create intelligent life? Thats not how it works.In order for a watch to be made (which is a very complicated piece of equipment) there has to be a watch maker. There is no other way to create it, no matter what the universe throws at it.We are far more intelligent than a watch, and there is no way that any kind of explosion could create our complicated brains that even we cannot understand.
This is just a longer argument from incredulity.
Choosing not to love him then you going to hell, isn't abusive.Let's not forget that we all sin and make bad decisions. And because of those bad decisions, we deserve hell.
It's extortion: love me or else. And if I were to murder someone, and on my deathbed I'm super sorry and really have a genuine conversion experience, accept my lord and savior, do I go to heaven or hell?
Conversely, if I jerk off tonight, don't believe in Jesus, don't repent, then die in my sleep, do I go to heaven?
God doesn't send anyone anywhere.
Who is making the criteria for entry to either realm?
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@Bones
- Resurrection didn't happen.
There isn't any concrete factual evidence that the resurrection of Jesus Christ did happen, but there is a lot of evidence to support it.
All of his disciples (each and every one of them) left their family's and lives to be tortured, killed, in some of the most gruesome ways, all because they preached that God was resurrected from the dead, and gained no worldly benefit whatsoever by doing this.
This as well as the almost 500 eyewitness accounts claiming Jesus to be resurrected from the dead. To keep that "lie" among 500 people, and the disciples, is a very hard thing to do, especially back then.
Also put into account that if there were concrete hard truth evidence to the resurrection of Jesus, the Bible would be contradicted, because the Bible preaches to live by faith and not by sight. If the evidence was truly there, people would become Christians only to save themselves from their own sin and not for the reason God wants us to. So, I think that just the fact we have so much evidence pointing toward it, but not enough to prove it, proves the point in the first place.
- Has not been demonstrated that our universe exhibits signs of either teleology nor a singular beginning.
Purpose is an example of something we cannot prove. Do we even have a purpose?
Well, if the idea of purpose exists in our brains, then purpose must exist, in a more hierarchical form, because that's how the universe works. In a hierarchal form.
Also, the Big Bang we can prove, and we can use that as a single beginning point of the universe. But I get what you mean by that, given we don't know where the mass for that implosion came from.
- The problem of gratuitous evil.
If God stopped evil, he would take away our free will to choose, and in turn take away our ability to truly love him.
- Epistemic bar is too high such that practically nothing would convince me.
Wouldn't just that alone convince you? This statement somewhat confuses me.
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@ludofl3x
This is just a longer argument from incredulity.
How so?
Inteligent life cannot exist without an intelligent creator. This is true.
It's extortion: love me or else. And if I were to murder someone, and on my deathbed I'm super sorry and really have a genuine conversion experience, accept my lord and savior, do I go to heaven or hell?
First of all, it isn't: Love me or else.
It is, choose me, so that I can save you from your own sin that you created yourself.
As for your question, it all depends on your heart. God looks at the heart when judging, and I believe that if you really genuinely accepted God as your Lord and Savior on your death bed, you would go to heaven, no matter what you have done in your life.
Conversely, if I jerk off tonight, don't believe in Jesus, don't repent, then die in my sleep, do I go to heaven?
In this scenario, the jerking off has nothing to do with you not going to heaven. You wouldn't go to heaven either way, because you didn't believe in Jesus.
Who is making the criteria for entry to either realm?
First of all, it is not another realm. It is outside of everything in comprehension.
Second of all, there was no criteria for heaven before man fell. It was heaven on earth for Adam and Eve before they fell. The only criteria for heaven, is to be without sin. And God didn't make these criteria, it just makes sense. God is perfect and cannot allow non-perfect people into a perfect place, because then he wouldn't be perfect, and that place wouldn't be perfect.
First of all, it isn't: Love me or else.It is, choose me, so that I can save you from your own sin that you created yourself.
I didn't create sin, or the idea of sin. Whose idea was that? This is just a longer way of saying "love me or else."
You wouldn't go to heaven either way, because you didn't believe in Jesus.
So literally every non Christian created by god over the course of let's say 5,000 years, including people like Iroquois babies, are burning in hell.
t is outside of everything in comprehension.
Yeah, completely agree, except you think you somehow comprehend it, you're explaining it.
if you really genuinely accepted God as your Lord and Savior on your death bed, you would go to heaven, no matter what you have done in your life.
This is justice, then? If I'm a totally good person, don't believe in Jesus, and die in my sleep, then I go to hell. If you murder someone and are really sorry for it and believe in Jesus, you go to heaven. Sound right?
You want to love Jesus, feel free, but don't tell me you're using logic to do it.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Inteligent life cannot exist without an intelligent creator. This is true.
Let's say I'm generous and grant this. Please demonstrate this creator is the character described in the bible, which has existed for less than 5000 years, while the universe is demonstrably between 13 and 14 billion years old.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Inteligent life cannot exist without an intelligent creator. This is true.
See: Calculating The Odds That Life Could Begin By Chance by David Demmer
The Bartel and Szostak experiment directly refutes the argument that the odds are stacked against an origin of life by natural processes. The inescapable conclusion is that genetic information can in fact emerge from random mixtures of polymers, as long as the populations contain large numbers of polymeric molecules with variable monomer sequences, and a way to select and amplify a specific property.
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@YouFound_Lxam
- Resurrection didn't happen.
There isn't any concrete factual evidence that the resurrection of Jesus Christ did happen, but there is a lot of evidence to support it.
Biblical testimony actually supports its falsity.
p1.If a body is dead, decomposition will occur.
p2. Jesus has never experienced decomposition. (Acts 2:31: His flesh did not experience decay)
p3. Jesus never died.
c1. Jesus did not resurrect
Ergo, Christianity is false.
- The problem of gratuitous evil.
If God stopped evil, he would take away our free will to choose, and in turn take away our ability to truly love him.
Evil comes about from more ways than just free will.
- Epistemic bar is too high such that practically nothing would convince me.
Wouldn't just that alone convince you? This statement somewhat confuses me.
No, extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence, and the god hypothesis is too extraordinary.
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@ludofl3x
I didn't create sin, or the idea of sin. Whose idea was that? This is just a longer way of saying "love me or else."
The meaning behind, "or else" is what is important.
If God was saying: or else, I will send you to hell, then that would be problematic.
But he is instead saying: or else you will send yourself to hell.
So literally every non Christian created by god over the course of let's say 5,000 years, including people like Iroquois babies, are burning in hell.
Babies and small children do go to heaven.
Anyone else though, yes, they are burning in hell, by their own choice.
This is justice, then? If I'm a totally good person, don't believe in Jesus, and die in my sleep, then I go to hell. If you murder someone and are really sorry for it and believe in Jesus, you go to heaven. Sound right?
Yes.
Let's say I'm generous and grant this. Please demonstrate this creator is the character described in the bible, which has existed for less than 5000 years, while the universe is demonstrably between 13 and 14 billion years old.
First of all, you don't grant this, because this is fact.
Second of all, the Bible doesn't say that the earth is 5000-, or 6000-year-old.
If we look in revelation, it claims that 1000, years is like one day for God. This is implying that our perception of time is different than Gods.
So, for God, the first 7 (or six if your being petty) days of creation, were days, but for us they could have been billions of years.
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@FLRW
The Bartel and Szostak experiment directly refutes the argument that the odds are stacked against an origin of life by natural processes. The inescapable conclusion is that genetic information can in fact emerge from random mixtures of polymers, as long as the populations contain large numbers of polymeric molecules with variable monomer sequences, and a way to select and amplify a specific property.
"As long as"
Something cannot come from nothing.
And at some point, there had to be nothing, or else physics, and biology would be contradicted.
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@Bones
Biblical testimony actually supports its falsity.p1.If a body is dead, decomposition will occur.p2. Jesus has never experienced decomposition. (Acts 2:31: His flesh did not experience decay)p3. Jesus never died.c1. Jesus did not resurrectErgo, Christianity is false.
Just because his flesh did not decay, doesn't mean he didn't die. God preserved his body. Look at the context of that verse.
Evil comes about from more ways than just free will.
What do you mean specifically?
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@Bones
p1.If a body is dead, decomposition will occur.
Flesh takes a few weeks to decay. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus stayed dead for weeks; in fact, it says the opposite.
Evil comes about from more ways than just free will.
Evil doesn't mean "bad." Evil means "immoral" which requires someone to make an immoral decision. If by gratuitous evils, you simply mean bad things happening, then this doesn't contradict the Christian position. The Bible describes all sorts of bad things happening, so the gratuitous evils you describe are compatible with Christian theology. Christian doctrine involves extensive reasoning for the existence of human suffering as a result of the Fall, probably more than most other religions.
extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence
Extraordinary means "highly unusual." Why do unusual claims require unusual evidence? Why not evidence of any sort? Most people believe in God, so atheism is the more unusual position anyway. The more intuitive claim is that unlikely claims require a lot of evidence, but this doesn't follow, because the likelihood of something is based on the amount of evidence for or against it.
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@YouFound_Lxam
There isn't any concrete factual evidence that the resurrection of Jesus Christ did happen, but there is a lot of evidence to support it.
Such as?
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@Stephen
Literally read the post dude.
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@Rieka
I am and have been raised to be one [a Christian], but I know that if I wasn't with the family and circumstances I'm in, I probably wouldn't be one.
Which clearly suggests that you are incapable of thinking for yourself and do not have your own mind.