Should human rights take precedence over national sovereignty?

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Savant
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I'll discuss two things here: (1) the conflict between human rights and national sovereignty, and (2) how it applies to Israel's current status as a nation.

Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government held that the legitimacy of a government depends on how it treats its citizens. It would seem to follow from this that a government that has existed for thousands of years has no moral justification to pass tyrannical laws, while a new government following a revolution does have a justification to rule via the consent of the governed, even if it hasn't existed for very long. This would seem consistent with almost every moral theory, including utilitarianism, deontology, and virtue ethics. Not to mention that national sovereignty usually comes from one nation conquering another nation, and "might makes right" is generally looked down upon as a justification for tyranny. So on most widely-accepted ethical theories, the preservation of human rights is all that matters. Everything else is secondary.

Yet almost every time I've heard the Israel-Palestinian conflict or any other border dispute discussed, this issue rarely comes up. Both sides seem to rest their claims almost entirely on historical events and on which government controlled the land first. But if we accept what I established above, the only issue of relevance would be which government has a better track record on human rights. In that regard, I see little reason to side with Palestine. Even if I concede that Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip are unjustified, it's without question that Palestinians and citizens, in general, are treated better in Israel than they are in Palestine. Even if a two-state solution is best for human rights in the short run, I see no reason to support Palestine invading Israel based on historical claims (which has been advocated for). I'm not convinced of those historical claims in the first place, but even if I were, I don't see why we ought to care about them. I'm not contesting the rights of individual Palestinians to own and maintain land, but I am contesting the right of the current Palestinian government to rule current Israeli territory. You could give many examples of Israel getting its hands dirty, but I don't think you could possibly defend the Palestinian government as more humanitarian overall. I could go on about this, but even if you disagree with my assessment of the situation, it's tangential to my larger point.

If you go back far enough, you can make the case for the national sovereignty of almost any government that has ruled a particular area. But you either get to a government that has taken power by force (in which case, what gives them any justification to rule?) or one that took power via revolution by the people (in which case, why shouldn't we support the country that is more democratic today?) So national sovereignty is largely an appeal to the consent of the governed from many years ago or to might makes right. I'd much prefer a government that is treating its citizens fairly today to one that did many years ago.
PREZ-HILTON
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Yes for example the human right for kids to not have their penises cut off

https://youtube.com/shorts/GL510E5Najc?feature=share
Savant
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@PREZ-HILTON
their penises
Nice of you to use gender-neutral language 😉
oromagi
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Genetic testing confirms that Palestinians and Jews were one people as recently as 8 or 9 thousand years ago.  If we remove the religion from the picture, we easily see that we are talking about a single people with almost identical traditions- how they handle power and how they respond to oppression, how they feel about their desert homeland, etc.    Both factions have a real, almost identical claim to the territory and the debate is entirely about which portion of history or which religion  you want to elevate after they stop being one people. 

I believe that Israelis and Palestinians have an equal right to equal citizenship across the whole of modern Israel and Palestinian territories and equal franchise.  That means that Palestinians represent 51% percent of the population and the Knesset has a democratic obligation to respect the majority power of Palestinians.  The current gerrymander of Palestinians is apartheid by another name- tear down those divisions, walls, barbed wire and run free and fair elections which means a Palestinian majority in parliament.  Israel might be more democratic than Gaza today but it not a truly democratic state until Palestinians and Israelis have a roughly equal share of wealth, power, franchise within that state. 
Savant
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@oromagi
Israel might be more democratic than Gaza today but it not a truly democratic state until Palestinians and Israelis have a roughly equal share of wealth, power, franchise within that state. 
I don't disagree, but we're largely talking about a dichotomy here. If the land isn't ruled by Israel or Palestine, who else is going to be in charge? Israeli rule comes with baggage, but the Palestinian government comes with a lot more. I'd rather that citizens in both countries were treated better, but I think the only practical way of getting closer to that is determining which government does a better job of protecting human rights (even if neither country is great at it). I think a two-state solution is better than a full-scale war, which is why I'm mainly talking about Israel's claim to the land it already has.
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@oromagi
Do you believe that people have a right to protect their religion?

Because lets face it. Any union of israeli and palestinians would be harmful for israeli's religion.

Muslim men can marry up to 4 women, and they breed a lot. So Israeli's religion would soon be a minority.
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@Savant
But as an American, I have no business predicting how the Muslim majority might govern Israeli Palestine.  The US was acting out of ant-semitism when we encouraged a new Jewish state in the heart of the ME (rather than encouraging Jewish immigration to the US) and was terribly wrong to recognize Israel in defiance of the UN denial.  All we can do now to rectify those wrongs is to support real democracy and full franchise and offer to take in any who feel endangered.   Muslims would be fools to drive out Jews now and crash the whole ME economy but they probably would anyway. 
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@Best.Korea
Judaism is already the minority religion in Israeli Palestine and has been for two thousand years except for a few decades in the 20th century.   As an American, I believe Congress should make no law respecting the establishment of religion and that goes doubly for foreign states   The Israelis can either claim to be democratic or they can use their superior force to suppress the majority religion in their country but they can’t do both. 

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@oromagi
I believe that religion is more important. If democracy leads to muslims dictating the country, then it is good for Israel to reject democracy.
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@Best.Korea
Ultimately, that is the dividing line between conservatives and liberals: continuing the old traditions of gods and kings vs giving people power, freedom, equality. 
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@oromagi
I have no business predicting how the Muslim majority might govern Israeli Palestine
Palestine is not a democracy. If the Palestinian government took over Israel, it would not be majority rule. But Palestinians can vote in Israel, so you'd actually be taking away voting rights from Palestinians.
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@oromagi
Judaism is already the minority religion in Israeli Palestine
Jews are majority in Israel and have power in Israel. Any union with palestine and its territory would change that dramatically, is what I am saying. No one will sacrifice their holy values to uphold democracy.
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@Best.Korea
Does that mean that the ratio of Palestinian men to Palestinian women is 1 to 4.

Or simply mean a similar ratio of Israeli women to Palestinian women.

In so much as women usually only produce a child once every nine months.

Because, for Palestinians to outbreed Israelis, there would clearly need to be a higher ration of Palestinian women to Israeli women.

In fact the number of Men would be irrelevant.



Nonetheless:

On the basis of a 1 to 1 ratio, Palestinian Men to Palestinian women.

And a marriage ratio of 1 to 4, this would mean that 75% of Palestinian men would never marry.

Seriously depleting the gene pool.

But consequently increasing the pool of potential suicide bombers.


Who needs a drone when you've got an idiot in a vest.


NB. This is merely a satirical response to Best Korea, and in no way meant to offend Palestinians.
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@zedvictor4
I think the assumption is that each Palestinian man will marry 4 Israeli or Palestinian women, hence no Israeli men (or very few) get married because they can't keep up or something. Whether that's realistic is a completely different discussion.
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@Savant
How realistic is Best Korea, is also another discussion.
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@zedvictor4
Compare the birth rates per woman. Palestine has much higher birth rates than israel. Woman being able to deliever every 9 months doesnt mean that woman will do so.

Plus, palestinian men would go after jewish girls. Thats the entire point of "1 man being allowed to marry 4 women" in islam.

Im theory, making 3/4 men single forces them to breed with non-muslim girls, therefore muslims would take both palestinian and israeli girls.

That is one of the reasons why islam grows so fast. Their goal is to outpopulate everyone else.
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@<<<oromagi>>>
I have no business predicting how the Muslim majority might govern Israeli Palestine
Palestine is not a democracy. If the Palestinian government took over Israel, it would not be majority rule. But Palestinians can vote in Israel, so you'd actually be taking away voting rights from Palestinians.
  • I'm not saying the Palestinian government should take over Israel.  I'm saying that Gaza and the West Bank have the right to vote in Israeli elections and the present Israeli government unjustly puts most Palestinians on reservations and denies them the right to vote.  They should be given the franchise  so that the true and already existing Palestinian majority is permitted to govern the land they live in.

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@oromagi
I agree with that. I think Israel has handled the West Bank badly, even though I think they do much better than Palestine overall.
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@<<<oromagi>>>
Judaism is already the minority religion in Israeli Palestine
Jews are majority in Israel and have power in Israel. Any union with palestine and its territory would change that dramatically, is what I am saying. No one will sacrifice their holy values to uphold democracy.
  • Americans did.  The French did.  India did.
  • The Jewish majority is upheld by forcing most Palestinians onto reservations without power.  That's apartheid.  What did Jewish holy values say about such apartheid in South Africa?  In the ghettos of Warsaw, Krakow, etc?  If values change according to who benefits, can they really be called holy?  Seems like a holy value would be unchangeable no matter who is in charge.

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@<<<oromagi>>>
I agree with that. I think Israel has handled the West Bank badly, even though I think they do much better than Palestine overall.
  • I've always said that if the Palestinians had just followed Gandhi, King, Mandela instead of terrorism, they would be in control of their own destiny now.

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@oromagi
  • Americans did.  The French did.  India did.
Their holy value was democracy in some sense.


The Jewish majority is upheld by forcing most Palestinians onto reservations without power.  That's apartheid.  What did Jewish holy values say about such apartheid in South Africa?
The most holy value of Jews is their religion, laws and rituals. Sometimes, some laws are broken to uphold other, more important laws.


If values change according to who benefits, can they really be called holy?  Seems like a holy value would be unchangeable no matter who is in charge.
If muslims take over Israel, the religion and holy values of Jews will decrease in favor of muslim values.
So yes, Israeli will probably continue to uphold their holy values.
Holy values do "change according to who benefits". Obviously, if opponents of certain values benefit too much, those values become in danger to be abandoned in favor of opponent's values.
So yes, if muslims are in charge of Israel, Israel's Jewish values would decrease in favor of muslim's values. That is a trade no Jew will agree to.
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@Best.Korea
So yes, if muslims are in charge of Israel, Israel's Jewish values would decrease in favor of muslim's values. That is a trade no Jew will agree to.

Either Jewish values would decrease or no Jew would agree to trade Jewish values for Muslim values.  Can't be both.


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@oromagi
No Jew would agree. Thats why Israel doesnt accept muslims. Israel has its values, and probably wont make the mistake of giving those values up for democracy.
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@Savant
Objective social morality ('human rights') takes precedence over any other standard of judging human action. It wouldn't be objective if it didn't, or in other words they wouldn't be rights if arbitrary nation states were more important.

I support Israel over the nutcases not because Israel "got there first", but because the Israeli government claims to better morals and follows through. For example they seem to understand that you shouldn't just kill religious minorities or blow up their holy sites even if they happen to be sitting on top of your holy site.

their penises
Nice of you to use gender-neutral language 😉
It was plural....
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Objective social morality ('human rights') takes precedence over any other standard of judging human action.
Yeah, I agree. I don't really see another way of evaluating morality between countries.

It was plural....
Ik lol, I was trolling.