Morality in of Itself.

Author: YouFound_Lxam

Posts

Total: 252
#211
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
This emphasizes the importance of morality for psychological well-being, social harmony, and successful leadership, irrespective of an afterlife.
Well if there’s no afterlife then who judges well-being? And if there’s no after life then why should we care about harmony and leadership?
#212
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
This emphasizes the importance of morality for psychological well-being, social harmony, and successful leadership, irrespective of an afterlife.
Well, if there’s no afterlife then who judges well-being? And if there’s no after life then why should we care about harmony and leadership?
I never said there was no afterlife, nor did I define what constitutes an afterlife, so your question involving my claim of the absence of an afterlife is irrelavent.
What I said was, we should act morally regardless of the existence of an afterlife because acting morally will have more positive consequences for our lives and acting immorally will have more negative consequences for our lives, as proven demonstrated in comment 187.
#213
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
What I said was, we should act morally regardless of the existence of an afterlife because acting morally will have more positive consequences for our lives and acting immorally will have more negative consequences for our lives, as proven demonstrated in comment 187.
But what if your goal is to take as many lives before taking your own? The consequences if that goal was successful would then be irrelevant would it?
#214
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,993
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@FLRW
Good Old Rudy.

But I will only ever remember the desperate guy in the shabby parking lot with hair dye trickling down his face.

Such is one reason why people should grow old gracefully.

Taught faces and turkey necks is another.
#215
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
If you accomplish your goal, it doesn't mean you had a good life.
#216
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
If you accomplish your goal, it doesn't mean you had a good life.
Well if there’s no afterlife then who defines good anyway?
#217
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Good is what is beneficial towards an entity. What is beneficial is subjective to one's goals.
In essence, the reason why the definitions of good and evil are controversial is because of their subjective nature.
#218
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
Good is what is beneficial towards an entity. What is beneficial is subjective to one's goals.
This isn’t beneficial at all dude, you’re contradicting yourself left and right and you’re inability to see that is frustrating. I literally just linked good to goals and you rejected it just to do the same thing less than 3 posts later, give me a break.
#219
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik

If you accomplish your goal, it doesn't mean you had a good life.
Well, if there’s no afterlife then who defines good anyway?
Good is what is beneficial towards an entity. What is beneficial is subjective to one's goals.
In essence, the reason why the definitions of good and evil are controversial is because of their subjective nature.
This isn’t beneficial at all dude, you’re contradicting yourself left and right and you’re inability to see that is frustrating. I literally just linked good to goals and you rejected it just to do the same thing less than 3 posts later, give me a break.
Please do not become frustrated, as I believe you are misunderstanding.

Earlier when I said, "if you accomplish your goal it doesn't mean you had a good life," I was giving the context of "a good life" in the emotional sense.
Someone who has done many terrible things can claim I have had a good life in the emotional sense, just as someone may not have enjoyed their life even if they have achieved their goals, such as regret.

The second instance is when you said, "who defines good," and you were referring to divine judgment, which clearly expressed a moral context.
Someone who is obviously considered a moral or righteous person can claim that they are not having a good life, it is that they are not having a good life, even though their actions may be good. Therefore, I gave you the definition of good in the context of morals.

This is really not that complicated, although not many people recognize this distinction.
Good can refer to the emotional or moral context, which are too distinct classes of good.
Clearly these two definitions do not contradict one another given their distinct contexts.
Please understand, I'm doing my best to explain my understanding to you, which has proven quite challenging, yet enjoyable.

The best thing to do if there is an obvious inconsistency of logic within an opponent's argument is not to assume them an idiot, but that either they or you are misusing the vocabulary. I have found this to be true in every dispute I can recollect. In the end, it has always been a misunderstanding of the definition. This is why I strive profusely to correct my understanding of words to their dictionary definitions, which are as defined undisputable, and this has proven beneficial every time.

Having said that, understanding the world on a much deeper level is quite difficult for many people, as we all find our own level of depth. If you feel at any point, you are not learning anything, please do not feel obligated to continue. Instead, feel obligated to tell me, so I don't use my time unproductively.

Maybe a break from this topic would be just what we need? I would prefer it so I can give more time to thought rather than explanation. This would give us time to contemplate all the new things we have explored in the forum. Then we can come back later with new thoughts and ideas. I often do this with my personal journal in philosophy, and it works quite effectively. Next time you feel as though you have made a breakthrough, please do not hesitate to post.
#220
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
Earlier when I said, "if you accomplish your goal it doesn't mean you had a good life," I was giving the context of "a good life" in the emotional sense.
Well now you’re just moving the goalposts, at first it was avoiding negative consequences, and after I theorize a premise where that’s not a factor you talk about emotional claims which literally has nothing to do with someone who doesn’t care about anything.
#221
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Earlier when I said, "if you accomplish your goal it doesn't mean you had a good life," I was giving the context of "a good life" in the emotional sense.
Well now you’re just moving the goalposts, at first it was avoiding negative consequences, and after I theorize a premise where that’s not a factor you talk about emotional claims which literally has nothing to do with someone who doesn’t care about anything.
I didn't notice you make any theories, nor do I intend to avoid them.
What was meant to be about avoiding negative consequences?
What is it that you dispute on my explanation for the definition of good in the emotional context you referred?


#222
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
What was meant to be about avoiding negative consequences?
You’re the one that first mentioned that argument and it’s simply not true if you take as many lives as you can before taking your own.
#223
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Yes, I did say I believe morals are meant to cultivate harmony in society, and that we can determine true morals from false ones by whether they contribute to societal peace.
#224
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
Yes, I did say I believe morals are meant to cultivate harmony in society, and that we can determine true morals from false ones by whether they contribute to societal peace.
You’re starting a circle here because that just begs the question why should we care about societal peace?
#225
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Yes, I did say I believe morals are meant to cultivate harmony in society, and that we can determine true morals from false ones by whether they contribute to societal peace.
You’re starting a circle here because that just begs the question why should we care about societal peace?
We should care about societal peace because we care about having peace in our own lives, being we are indeed a part of society.
I don't believe anyone wishes to live in chaos and disharmony, but order and tranquility.
#226
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
We should care about societal peace because we care about having peace in our own lives, being we are indeed a part of society.
Not if your goal is to take as many lives as you can before taking your own, an example I’ve made countless times already.
#227
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
The answer to your question is that a person will work as hard and take as many risks as they believe are worth the peace that they believe will result from their efforts.
Just as I go to work every day and find myself not enjoying time playing cards; I too am seeking the peace that will be reaped as a benefit of my labor, financial stability.

Then when the moment comes that they have failed, and they must choose torture or instant death, then death is the clear choice.
I do not believe that killing himself was part of the plan, although if he had known it, he may have still believed his efforts were worth his accomplishments.
#228
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
I do not believe that killing himself was part of the plan, although if he had known it, he may have still believed his efforts were worth his accomplishments.
It’s a hypothetical dude, your belief isn’t relevant.
#229
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
As I understand it, a belief is something that someone holds to be true as a result of them believing it; it is not the same as a religion.
A religion is a belief, but a belief is not necessarily a religion.
Everything that we deduce logically has to be founded on something that we believe to be true otherwise it is irrational.
Therefore, my belief is quite relevant, hypothetical or not.
#230
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
Therefore, my belief is quite relevant, hypothetical or not.
That’s not how hypotheticals work, especially mine because I literally just made it up. You’re the one acting like it’s a real life person.
#231
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
I was under the impression that all hypothetical scenarios are derived from reality to answer certain circumstances, otherwise this discussion is pointless.
I'm here to be productive, so I do intend to answer a real-life scenario given this hypothetical.
Although, I do feel Hitler is a primary example of your hypothetical, I was intending to answer all people who fit the profile.
#232
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
I was under the impression that all hypothetical scenarios are derived from reality to answer certain circumstances, otherwise this discussion is pointless.
Suicide bombing is reality, you’re the one making a generalized notion personal.
#233
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
I apologize for leaving enough ambiguity to lead you to this misunderstanding. It was not my intention to make it personal.
Allow me to redirect the thread to your original question before the miscommunication.

Me: We should care about societal peace because we care about having peace in our own lives, being we are indeed a part of society.
You: Not if your goal is to take as many lives as you can before taking your own, an example I’ve made countless times already.
Me: The answer to your question is that a person will work as hard and take as many risks as they believe are worth the peace that they believe will result from their efforts.
Just as I go to work every day and find myself not enjoying time playing cards; I too am seeking the peace that will be reaped as a benefit of my labor, financial stability.
In essence, I do not believe that anyone seeks pointless destruction unless they are either vengeful at existence or believe that the result of their actions will bring greater peace.
#234
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
In essence, I do not believe that anyone seeks pointless destruction unless they are either vengeful at existence or believe that the result of their actions will bring greater peace.
The means wasn’t the point of the hypothetical, it was to show you that not everybody cares about life, ever heard of nihilism?

#235
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Yes, I am quite familiar. I'm a nihilist, and I know that there are diverse types of nihilism. A common mistake is to think that nihilists feel that life is meaningless. Nihilism does not determine how one views the world as meaningful or meaningless. Some people appreciate the sense of meaning even though they know it is a human construct that is subjective. Others reject the sense of meaning because they recognize it does not exist outside of us.

In my opinion, meaning is an emotion that cannot exist beyond our senses (why I am a Nihilist), because in order to feel the emotion it must be felt by the person who embodies it. In other words, there would be no purpose to an external existence of emotions. This is why I value emotions such as meaning as any non-Nihilist would, yet I'm still a Nihilist.
#236
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
I think that all people care about life at some point, typically their childhood. However, this value for life can often become tainted by vengeance towards being as a result of recognizing their incompetence and inability to rise in the hierarchy, so rather than becoming motivated to improve with benign envy they manifest malicious envy, which is most destructive to their life and those surrounding them. A primary example in the Christian Bible is the story of Cain and Abel, where Cain idolized Abel for his ability to achieve what Cain never could, which was the perfect sacrifice for God. Cain could have built an alliance with Abel and built his competence to become a better person, but instead he killed his ideal. Similarly, in the Disney movie Sleeping Beauty the evil Queen desired to be the most beautiful maiden in all the land, so rather than aspiring to be the best she desired to destroy her competition. It's a very common motif that repeats itself through archetypal mythology.

In essence, I believe that all hatred towards life is derived from vengeance towards being as a result of one's insufficiencies, or by recognizing the inherent negative aspects of life without discovering what one values, which will inevitably lead them to see the world as a net negative. It's important to note what one values is subjective, so while to one person the world is a evil place that is not worth living, another may find the world a paradise.
#237
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Critical-Tim
A common mistake is to think that nihilists feel that life is meaningless. 
Do yourself and I a favor and Google the definition of nihilism, then get back to me 😉 
#238
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
There is no use in being disrespectful, and you should know by now I always research before commenting.
When announcing one's dispute on the validity of information provided by another, it is advisable to do so cautiously. If the one is then found to be in the wrong after announcing their dispute, it would be more embarrassing and destructive to their reputation than providing legitimate information that is indisputable.

Here is the complete summary of my research:

Nihilism is a philosophical viewpoint that rejects the existence or value of any objective truth, morality, or meaning in life. There are different types of nihilism, such as moral nihilism, existential nihilism, epistemological nihilism, and political nihilism. Some of the most influential nihilist thinkers include Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Albert Camus, and Jacques Derrida.
Here are some definitions of nihilism from various sources:
  • a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
    a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
    a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
  • the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless
    extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence
    the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party c. 1900 which found nothing to approve of in the established social order
  • Philosophy antithetical to concepts of meaningfulness
    Nihilism is the philosophical viewpoint that suggests the denial or lack of belief towards the reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.
If you want to learn more about nihilism, you can visit these links:

#239
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Now that I have provided evidence of which is indisputable and non-opinionated, we can move forward unless you have additional evidence to provide that is not merely an opinionative definition.

As I said, "I'm a nihilist, and I know that there are diverse types of nihilism."

A common mistake is to think that nihilists feel that life is meaningless.
Nihilism does not determine how one views the world as meaningful or meaningless.
As stated above in the second quote of Wikipedia, most commonly nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. This means the feeling that life is meaningless is not a universal trait of nihilism, but rather of specific instances.
It is possible for a person to be a nihilist and consider the subjective meaning in life worthwhile, acknowledging the absence of objective meaning.

Unless you have further evidence to provide, there is nothing further that can be said to change my position.

I'm glad I could research more about nihilism and its varying meanings.
#240
Critical-Tim
Critical-Tim's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 902
3
2
7
Critical-Tim's avatar
Critical-Tim
3
2
7
-->
@Tarik
Ultimately, Nihilism argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Many would consider the absence of intrinsic value to feel meaningless, but this is not universal. As proven by my existence, some may accept subjective value as meaningful or worthwhile, while acknowledging an absence of intrinsic value.