The transgenderism debate

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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#211
TWS1405_2
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Good grief. Dr. Money, the pervert who conceptualized “gender theory” was an evil bastard. 
Because of this hack, two twins ended up with ruined lives, to include the parents. 
The study Dr. Money did that became “doctrine” in the medical field whereas this gender theory garbage is concerned was false from the onset. He falsified everything. He sexually assaulted the boys. He lied. He ruined two twins lives. One committed suicide and the other over dosed. 
Everything that has followed since this fallaciously ill-begotten theory is landed us where we are today with the alphabet soup crowd, especially transgenderism. 
It’s sick, disgusting, and pure evil at its core.


#212
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The ideology of transgenderism has become militant and violent as of late:

#213
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@Kaitlyn
biological existence is not limited to observable physical traits. Female neurology is discrete. Female hormones are discrete. Female center of gravity is discrete. None of these are "observable characteristics" that are limited to "genetillia and physical traits", yet ALL are distinctly both biologically female AND female gendered. 
This point is the intellectual equivalent of "nuh-uh!"

I'm explaining how gender and biology differ, yet all you're doing here is claiming they are the same without reconciling the differences.

I agreed with you that behavior is part of the equation as well. Behavior is also observable, so that does nothing to conflict with my point. Whether that behavior is caused by female neurology is irrelevant because you do not scan other people's brains before making a determination as to their gender.

I know that's not complicated. It's just really stupid.
And yet it is how we have all been assessing gender our entire lives.

Your observations are not always reality. The magician's trick performed in front of you is often missed by the naked eye, but does that mean magic exists? There is an underlying reality to the universe and you cannot just make things up and expect them to always be true. Sorry!
Complete (and absurd) strawman.

You've dropped the contention on whether lived experience is a valid form of evidence (that because I'm not transgender, I can't make arguments involving them), so I'll assume that you agree that it is not.
Your point that I responded to had nothing to do with evidence. It had to do with you determining how other people should live their lives, to which I stand by my statement that your lack of experience with their struggles absolutely makes you unqualified to weigh in on it.

I specifically found another study showing trans people are more likely to be the instigators of bullying, rather than the bullied 
Funny, because that same source says something else...

Conclusion: Transgender identity, especially non-binary identity, is associated with both being bullied and perpetrating bullying even when a range of variables including internal stress and involvement in bullying in the opposite role are taken into account. 

But sure. Make an unfalsifiable hypothesis wherein no study is valid because 'trans people are the most ridiculed and least welcomed people in our society [citation needed]', and thus handwave their horrendous incarceration rate (40%) and their higher likelihood to have a mental disorder
It's not an unfalsifiable hypothesis, is applying basic logic and common sense to a fact. Just as most child rapists turned to be raped themselves, those who are bullied are more likely to bully others. It's human nature, there's nothing surprising about it.

They're not a new gender. They're a bunch of gay people with a mental illness. Neither gays nor mental illness are new.
Irrelevant to my point.


#214
Double_R
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@cristo71
I’m talking about how you yourself defined it and how it coincided with the definition of ideology.
I don't define it as anything, this is your guys claim. I'm just responding to the stupidity of the claims being made.

All we're really talking about is how we should handle the fact that there are a lot of people in our society who experience gender dysphoria and many who chose to alter their bodies because if it. I believe we should feel empathy for these people and their struggles, and treat them with basic dignity and respect. If that means addressing a person who was born a man but transitioned as a she then I'm fine with that, who the hell cares? But then I sit here listening to 101 reasons we shouldn't do that. Ok, so go on and explain...

I just had a sneaking suspicion that you would refuse to own up to what is a blatant contradiction in your own claims.
If you could show me one I would, but clearly you won't bother and will instead just pretend you did...

#215
Kaitlyn
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@Double_R
I'm explaining how gender and biology differ, yet all you're doing here is claiming they are the same without reconciling the differences.
That hasn't been my argument at all anywhere in this discussion.

My argument has always been that gender is a product of biological sex. Gender extends from biological sex, but isn't the same as biological sex.

I agreed with you that behavior is part of the equation as well. Behavior is also observable, so that does nothing to conflict with my point. Whether that behavior is caused by female neurology is irrelevant because you do not scan other people's brains before making a determination as to their gender.
No, no. Don't start playing a cheeky little semantics game.

You originally meant purely physical traits as being the part that is "observable", not behaviour being observable as well: "Agreed, except that the concept of "biological female" we are extrapolating from is based entirely on observable characteristics such as genetillia and physical traits like soft facial features or non muscular arms." The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) 

That was the original point of disagreement.

Your observations are not always reality. The magician's trick performed in front of you is often missed by the naked eye, but does that mean magic exists? There is an underlying reality to the universe and you cannot just make things up and expect them to always be true. Sorry!
Complete (and absurd) strawman.
Of course it seems absurd. It's a repurposing of your argument to show your reasoning can produce ridiculous conclusions: "The question of whether transgenderism is a mental disorder has nothing to do with the fact that we as humans do, always have, and always will rely simply on our observations to make a determination regarding ones gender and/or biological sex."

If we "rely simply on observations" to determine things, we get wild conclusions that 100,000 of aliens have visited Earth, and that putting on a wig, makeup and dress can turn a man into a woman. That the necessary wild extreme of your argument. That's why we shouldn't simply rely on observations to determine truth.

You've dropped the contention on whether lived experience is a valid form of evidence (that because I'm not transgender, I can't make arguments involving them), so I'll assume that you agree that it is not.
Your point that I responded to had nothing to do with evidence. It had to do with you determining how other people should live their lives, to which I stand by my statement that your lack of experience with their struggles absolutely makes you unqualified to weigh in on it.
Yes, it didn't have anything to do with evidence, because that wasn't required given the style of argument. You originally said words to the effect of, 'you're not trans, therefore you don't know what it's like'. I responded with the fire analogy. I don't see why I would need to cite anything for that type of argument. Do you not believe fire exists or something?

And again, I'm not arguing about trans people should do with their lives, I'm arguing what we shouldn't do to them. We shouldn't label their mental illness as a 'gender'.

I specifically found another study showing trans people are more likely to be the instigators of bullying, rather than the bullied 
Funny, because that same source says something else...

Conclusion: Transgender identity, especially non-binary identity, is associated with both being bullied and perpetrating bullying even when a range of variables including internal stress and involvement in bullying in the opposite role are taken into account. 
You're confusing the data points.

It's simultaneously true that trans people (1) are more likely to be bullies than bullied, and (2) are more likely to be bullied than the general population. There's no contradiction in both those being true simultaneously.

But sure. Make an unfalsifiable hypothesis wherein no study is valid because 'trans people are the most ridiculed and least welcomed people in our society [citation needed]', and thus handwave their horrendous incarceration rate (40%) and their higher likelihood to have a mental disorder
It's not an unfalsifiable hypothesis, is applying basic logic and common sense to a fact. Just as most child rapists turned to be raped themselves, those who are bullied are more likely to bully others. It's human nature, there's nothing surprising about it.
Sorry but it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. You want to handwave bad trans behavior and indications of mental illness because people are sometimes mean to trans people. We can't ever legitimately criticize or define trans people because the meanness affects them too much.
#216
oromagi
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@<<<oromagi>>>
  • Because there are many Feminists who embrace and promote Feminism.  Nobody claims to be a proponent of Transgender Idelogy, only opponents.
  • Because we don't call it "Female-ism"  
    • We make a distinction between what we are born with and what we believe.
  • Because there is nothing in what Republicans claim is called "Transgender ideology" that didn't already exist for decades as part of Feminist ideology.
So, it is a concept under the umbrella of an ideology but decidedly not an ideology in itself? Thanks for attempting to provide an answer, but this all merely sounds like a minor point of semantics.

  • It is semantics because we are debating the meaning of the word transgenderism.  This conversation is not worthwhile with a deep dive into semantics.
Let's turn to the experts:

WIKTIONARY:  transgenderism (usually uncountable, plural transgenderisms)
  1. The state of being transgender. (See usage notes) quotations ▼
  2. (derogatory) A purported ideology behind transgender identities, trans activism and trans rights movements; transness, viewed as an ideology. (Compare homosexual agenda.) 
CAMBRIDGE:  transgenderism
noun [ U ]
   formal often disapproving
the fact of not having your gender match the body you were born with.
This word is often used by people who think that this is a bad thing, or who want to suggest that transgender people are wrong about their gender:
The county school system defended the new lessons that introduce students to sexual orientation and transgenderism in grades eight and 10.
Note:
  • This word was more common in the past and it is still used in some formal writing, but it is now considered offensive by many people.
GRAMMARIST.COM: Is the Term Transgenderism Correct?

No, the term transgenderism is dated and incorrect. You might think it just means being transgender, but many transphobic people misappropriated the term to diagnose transgender people as mentally sick.  Over ten years ago, transgenderism was still a disorder that appeared in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. In 2015, The American Society for Reproductive Medicine and other academic research institutions stated that it’s not a mental illness.   If someone is undergoing hormone therapy or cosmetic surgery to match their gender identity, they are transitioning. They are not experiencing transgenderism. 

Some dictionaries lack a defintion for transgenderism but I can find no objective dictionary that defines transgenderism as an ideology.  Transgender ideology seems to be a very recent, 100% right-wing, American notion.

The irony is that I believe that one of the groups most harmed by the current trajectory with the trans movement is women. How does the notion that a male may claim full possession and knowledge of womanhood not perpetuate male dominance over women?
  • I have never heard a transwoman claim "full possession and knowledge of womanhood."  I have heard  more than one transwoman express her deep regret that she will never enjoy that full possesson and knowledge of womanhood" because she cannot be a natural mother.
  • I think that what you think is ironic is the opposite of the facts.  Please provide three examples of a transwoman bragging that she possesses "full possession and knowledge of womanhood"



#217
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@oromagi
  • It is semantics because we are debating the meaning of the word transgenderism.  This conversation is not worthwhile with a deep dive into semantics.
I am claiming that the claims put forth by the transgender movement comprise an ideology. So far, you have claimed that the transgender movement is not an ideology but is a subset of the feminist movement, which you have acknowledged IS an ideology.

This is what I would call “a distinction without a difference.”

Let's turn to the experts:
The “experts” are… the dictionary? Your modus operandi seems to be that we exist to obey the dictionary, not the other way around. You really should know that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. What you will not find in the dictionary is how one draws a distinction between the set of claims and ambitions of the transgender movement and the dictionary definition of “ideology.”

I have never heard a transwoman claim "full possession and knowledge of womanhood."  I have heard  more than one transwoman express her deep regret that she will never enjoy that full possesson and knowledge of womanhood" because she cannot be a natural mother.
To clarify, I am not talking about every individual who happens to be transgender. I am talking about the activist, transgender “not an ideology.” One need not even be transgender to be a vocal part of the activist “not an ideology.”

So, I am saying that transgender activists make this claim when they insist “trans women ARE women!” or perhaps it is “trans women are WOMEN!”
#218
Bones
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@Double_R
What do you two take woman to mean - I think that's pretty central to this conversation and should clear up a lot of this clarity.  Because honestly, one way or the other, whether being trans is encompassed within an ideology isn't very interesting - what matters is a) if transitioning has utility in society and b) more importantly, if the terms that are being used are actually cogent. 
#219
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Women sit down to pee. 

What would be interesting is the stats on these people with this gender dysphoria thing . 
How many blokes that " identify " as a woman sit down and piss. 

I have a feeling none of them do. 
Thus making them a fucking  joke. 

If you "feel"  like a women. 
You would go to do a piss and you would sit down and grab some toilet paper in advance to wipe yourself.
Anddd.
When your just about to wipe you would be like, oh thats right , i don't need to wipe down there, and just chuck the clean toilet paper in the toilet.  
 And you'd  do this EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.


Oh,  Actually you might not. 
But it would be a interesting stat.



#220
Platypi
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@YouFound_Lxam
I call might refer to a man dressing like a girl as a crossdresser, or more likely not call them anything in particular.  That doesn't benefit society, and its not an ideology.  It is what it is.

It's also not a political thing, not unless you want it to be.

20 years ago someone your age would have heard the song "Dude looks like a Lady" by Aerosmith over the radio.  They might feel it's a good song or not, and not think any more deeply on the subject than that. 

Honestly, I would have to go out of my way to find someone who even talks about such things. 

Psychology is not a trade, and college is a place where men and women are physically at or approaching their peak for starting a family, but since we encourage people to go before they even have their own home, they don't have enough skill and stability for the commitment.  There's lots of bias brought about by sexual exploration associated with the culture.

It's a fad.


#221
oromagi
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@cristo71
debating the meaning of the word transgenderism.  This conversation is not worthwhile with a deep dive into semantics.
I am claiming that the claims put forth by the transgender movement comprise an ideology. So far, you have claimed that the transgender movement is not an ideology but is a subset of the feminist movement, which you have acknowledged IS an ideology.
  • False.  I am claiming that the transgender movement is a civil rights movement properly called the transgender civil rights movement and not Transgenderism or an Transgender ideology and more than you would call the civil rights movement Black ideology or Blackism.  TRANSGENDERISM is the state  of experiencing a gender identity which is different from the sex one was assigned at birth.  IT is a human condition and not a human thought.  To call it an ideology is to fail to recognize that transgenderism is a condition and not a thought.  Autism is a condition and not an ideology.  Left-handedness is a condition and not an ideology.  If you started calling autism an ideology, you would be deliberately insulting the autistic.  In the exact same way, to call Transgenderism an ideology is to deliberately insult trans people.
This is what I would call “a distinction without a difference.”
  • Feminism is an idea and not a human condition.  If you can't understand a distinction that medical professionals, scientists, dictionaries, have no problem making  (i.e. the objective, long-debated, and expert opinion), than that is your lack of understanding.
What you will not find in the dictionary is how one draws a distinction between the set of claims and ambitions of the transgender movement and the dictionary definition of “ideology.”
  • Total bullshit.  Obviously, the writers of dictionaries have no problem distinguishing conditions from ideology. Dictionaries note and define idelogies wherever they find them and those books consistenly find no idelogy in Transgenderism, no transgender idelology.  Lexicographers have a professional obligation to objectivity and any objective definition must reject the notion that ideologies can be imposed, that the right-wing can define a transgender ideology for them.  Objectively, lexicographers have consistently found that either there is no Transgender ideology or else that the notion is devised as an intention insult.
I have never heard a transwoman claim "full possession and knowledge of womanhood."  I have heard  more than one transwoman express her deep regret that she will never enjoy that full possesson and knowledge of womanhood" because she cannot be a natural mother.
To clarify, I am not talking about every individual who happens to be transgender. I am talking about the activist, transgender “not an ideology.” One need not even be transgender to be a vocal part of the activist “not an ideology.”
  • Fine.  Stop dithering.  Please provide multiple example of transwomen publicly making the claim that they are in "full possession and knowledge of womanhood."  That is the ideology you just said you were fighting against, right? Obviously, you must be able to cite many examples.  In my experience, trans woman are careful with their words and never, ever insult their fellow women by saying such things.
So, I am saying that transgender activists make this claim when they insist “trans women ARE women!” or perhaps it is “trans women are WOMEN!”
  • That is an accurate description of the condition and not at all ideological to the unbiased.  When black sanitation workers went on strike in Memphis raising sign that said, "I am a MAN!"  only the bigots saw that phrase as ideological (a belief), everybody else saw the phrase as a statement of fact: if all men are created equal I am a man.  Those sanitation workers weren't thinking about biology they were demanding the equal rights due any human.  Likewise, a transwoman stating "I am a women" is a legitimate civil rights claim to enfranchisement.  That is ideology but it is the ideology of the Declaration of Independence and theoretically, the core value of the American, however consistently Republicans fail to up hold up that core value.
  • You and YFL both seem to be saying that you think that if you stopped a transwoman carrying a "TRANS WOMEN are WOMEN!" sign at a rally and asked her biological facts like "were you born with a uterus?" or "are you able to bear children?" that she would say yes, but that is not reality.  In my experience, trans women are keenly aware and realistic about the biological facts of their condition.  When they say "transwomen are women" they mean in the sense of public policy, a question resolved by the Civil Rights act of 1964. 
    • You hear "transwomen are women" as an assertion of biological fact but that's only happening in your head and not in the heads of the people on whom you are trying to impose an ideology.

       


#222
Greyparrot
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Objectively, lexicographers have consistently...


























#223
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@Greyparrot
Well thought out and well said.
#224
oromagi
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@Double_R
What do you two take woman to mean - I think that's pretty central to this conversation and should clear up a lot of this clarity. 
    WIKTIONARY:
    Noun[edit]
    woman (plural women)
    1. An adult female human.
    2. (collective) All female humans collectively; womankind. 
    3. A female person, usually an adult; a (generally adult) female sentient being, whether human, supernatural, elf, alien, etc. 
    4. A wife (or sometimes a fiancée or girlfriend). 
    5. A female person who is extremely fond of or devoted to a specified type of thing. (Used as the last element of a compound.) 
    6. A female attendant or servant. 
    what matters is a) if transitioning has utility in society and b) more importantly, if the terms that are being used are actually cogent. 
    • Transitioning is the medical prescription for acute gender dysphoria.  Americans have no more right to question the utility of that doctor's recommendation than we do questioning the utility of offering chemotherapy to a 90 year old or the utility of educating the autistic.
    • My argument, backed by all the major dictionaries, is that term "Transgender ideology" is a only  right-wing slur and "Transgenderism" is just the state of being transgendered.   After asking six or seven times, nobody has given me a cogent example of a transgender ideology publicly expressed by advocates.  YFL begins this conversation with a call to eradicate an ideology but under examination, the only objection seems to be trans people referring to themselves using terms he does not approve of- that is, YFL believes that the First Ammendent is reserved for approved speech only and (at least under some conditions) unapproved speech may be lawfully "eradicated." 

    #225
    Greyparrot
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    @b9_ntt
    I like the part where binding yourself to authorities of the past prevents you from living in the present and bettering yourself.

    This extends to much more than just language.
    #226
    cristo71
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    @oromagi
    “So far, you have claimed that the transgender movement is not an ideology but is a subset of the feminist movement, which you have acknowledged IS an ideology.”

    False.

    False? I am just restating what you said in your post #202:


    there is nothing in what Republicans claim is called "Transgender ideology" that didn't already exist for decades as part of Feminist ideology.


    Have you changed your mind or something about this since yesterday and neglected to tell me?



    I am claiming that the transgender movement is a civil rights movement properly called the transgender civil rights movement and not Transgenderism or an Transgender ideology and more than you would call the civil rights movement Black ideology or Blackism.



    There actually is an “ideology of blackness,” but one can be black without subscribing to the ideology. See what I’m getting at?


    TRANSGENDERISM is the state  of experiencing a gender identity which is different from the sex one was assigned at birth.  IT is a human condition and not a human thought.  To call it an ideology is to fail to recognize that transgenderism is a condition and not a thought.  Autism is a condition and not an ideology.  Left-handedness is a condition and not an ideology.  If you started calling autism an ideology, you would be deliberately insulting the autistic.  In the exact same way, to call Transgenderism an ideology is to deliberately insult trans people.


    A human condition and an ideology are not mutually exclusive. Take feminism, an admitted ideology, for example:

    One can be a woman yet not subscribe to feminism.
    One can be not a woman yet subscribe to feminism.
    One can be a woman and subscribe to feminism.

    Feminism is an ideology regarding womanhood but is distinct from “the state of being a woman.”


    Obviously, the writers of dictionaries have no problem distinguishing conditions from ideology.


    Come on, now. Clearly, I did not refer to “a condition.” I said (what you were just responding to, no less)(emphasis added):

    “What you will not find in the dictionary is how one draws a distinction between the set of claims and ambitions of the transgender movement and the dictionary definition of “ideology.””

    “they insist “trans women ARE women!” or perhaps it is “trans women are WOMEN!””


    That is an accurate description of the condition…

    It is an ideological claim. An accurate description of the condition would be something such as “trans women feel like women.”


    a transwoman stating "I am a women (sic)" is a legitimate civil rights claim to enfranchisement.


    It is claiming what, exactly? It is not like the claim is “trans women are people!” or some such more agreeable slogan…

    #227
    zedvictor4
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    @Deb-8-a-bull
    And how many women that identify as men stand up to piss.

    Wet trousers every time.

    Though I suppose that they could wear dresses.....Sort of object defeating though.

    And do they face forwards or backwards.

    Perhaps we could corner the market in trans-urinals.

    Though I suppose they could just sit down on a conventional toilet.

    Damn!  Scrap the urinal idea Deb

    Of course, men that identify as women perhaps have other discharge issues.




    #228
    zedvictor4
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    @Greyparrot
    Nice.

    #229
    cristo71
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    @Greyparrot
    Nice find. Precisely what I was getting at when I told Oromagi:

    “The “experts” are… the dictionary? Your modus operandi seems to be that we exist to obey the dictionary, not the other way around. You really should know that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive.”

    This (new to me until this thread) repulsion from referring to the transgender movement as “ideology” made me think that they “protest too much.” To what end? I’m thinking it is to make it easier to smuggle the movement’s claims into lower education.
    #230
    Deb-8-a-bull
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    When you see the word Transgender,  and start thinking about it.   
    It doesn't take long before ya thinking about that awsome car out of smokey and the bandit. 
    Ah yeah. love it. 
    Soooooo , Its safe to say .  I ain't transphobic.  
    #231
    zedvictor4
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    @Deb-8-a-bull
    Is that an adverse reaction reaction to bright lights.


    When I see the word transgender, it's not long before I'm thinking jelly and blancmange.

    And when I see the word blancmange, it's not long before I'm thinking naked mud wrestling with a proper woman.

    And the first woman that springs to mind is Fiona Bruce.

    Don't tell Mrs Zed.
    #232
    Greyparrot
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    @cristo71
    This (new to me until this thread) repulsion from referring to the transgender movement as “ideology” made me think that they “protest too much.” To what end? I’m thinking it is to make it easier to smuggle the movement’s claims into lower education.
    To admit it's an ideology is to also admit irreversible cosmetic surgery therapy is an experimental theory for treating dysphoria.

    Which of course, it is.
    #233
    Deb-8-a-bull
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    @zedvictor4
    Let me now test your transphobic levels..

    Sing. 
    ( Transformers.   Robots in disguise. )

    Now in that same tune. 

    ( Transgender.   _______  _____  _____  ____ )                  《 please fill in the blanks. 
    Use as many words as ya want. 


    ▪○°•¤▪○°•¤▪○°•¤▪○°•¤▪○°•¤▪○°•¤


    I'll get back to you with ya score. 
    Good luck.  


    #234
    zedvictor4
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    @Deb-8-a-bull
    Transgender. Man in suspenders.
    #235
    Deb-8-a-bull
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    @zedvictor4
    Ya out of tune pal. 

    Score not registered. ..

    Your the smartest chap here and it feels like you dont know the tune that goes with . 
    Transformers,  robots in disguise.  
    Just that part.

    For example. 
    Transgenders . Girls dressed up like guys.



    Look im just gonna move on. 


    Transgender,  men in suspenders he says
    WTF
    #236
    oromagi
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    @<<<oromagi>>>
    “So far, you have claimed that the transgender movement is not an ideology but is a subset of the feminist movement, which you have acknowledged IS an ideology.”

    False.

    False? I am just restating what you said in your post #202:
    • No.  You falsely put the words "Transgender Movement" into my mouth.  I responded then and repeat in hope of your improved comprehension:
      •  I am claiming that the transgender movement is a civil rights movement properly called the transgender civil rights movement and not Transgenderism or an Transgender ideology any more than you would call the civil rights movement Black ideology or Blackism. 
    There actually is an “ideology of blackness,” but one can be black without subscribing to the ideology. See what I’m getting at?
    • Not at all.  If there is an ideology of Blackness then you should be able to quote me three notable Blackists summarizing the ideology of Blackness.
      • Please do so or withdraw the claim.

    A human condition and an ideology are not mutually exclusive.
    • False.  
    One can be a woman yet not subscribe to feminism.
    One can be not a woman yet subscribe to feminism.
    One can be a woman and subscribe to feminism.

    Feminism is an ideology regarding womanhood but is distinct from “the state of being a woman.”
    • Exactly.  Feminism is also an ideology regarding Transgenderism but is distinct form "the state of being transgender."
    • Just as would be wrong for men to state that there is an ideology of Womanism and start characterizing that ideology in the absence of any Womanists who subscribe to womanism, it would be wrong for you to state that there is an ideology of Transgenderism and start characterizing that ideology in the absence of any Transgenderists who subscribe to Transgenderism.  It is a null set- a straw man.  For any ideology to be valid it must originate with positive proponents, not just negative opponents pretending there is a poltical movement they oppose.
    Come on, now. Clearly, I did not refer to “a condition.”
    • No, multiple conservative, objective dictionaries explained to you and you failed to understand that Transgenderism is a word that describes a human condition and never " the set of claims and ambitions of the transgender movement" because no such set exists outside of the imagination of the American Right wing.
    It is an ideological claim.
    • Of Feminists, yes and any American who believes that citizens get to control their own identity. .  There is no such thing as Transgenderists who make such a claim.
    An accurate description of the condition would be something such as “trans women feel like women.”
    • From an outsider's perspective perhaps, but irrelevant to our discussion of public policy since as Americans, we don't get to tell other Americans how they feel.
      • Whether or not you feel that Feminism is wrong on this point, the US Constitution does not allow us to enforce correction or eradicate unpopular self-conceptions.
    It is claiming what, exactly? It is not like the claim is “trans women are people!” or some such more agreeable slogan…
    • Here is NOW making the claim succintly:  "Today we remind the world that trans women are women, trans girls are girls, and that non-binary and gender-nonconforming people are valid in their stated identities."
      • Not just people but fully enfranchised citizens with the same right to declare themselves a woman as any other.  It is a statement about gender identity, Feminism, and not a statement about gender dymorphism, Transgenderism.

    #237
    cristo71
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    @oromagi
    No.  You falsely put the words "Transgender Movement" into my mouth.  I responded then and repeat in hope of your improved comprehension:
    I am claiming that the transgender movement…
    Can you read your own writing for goodness’ sake? You yourself just expressed the phrase “transgender movement” right after accusing me of falsely ascribing the phrase to you…

    Regarding African American or Black ideology, I supply you this:


    Which, of course, I expect you to reject outright at this point in our unproductive convo…

    • Exactly.  Feminism is also an ideology regarding Transgenderism but is distinct form "the state of being transgender."

    It is a statement about gender identity, Feminism, and not a statement about gender dymorphism, Transgenderism.
    I get the idea that you want to make feminism the ideology behind transgender rather than letting transgender have its own ideology. If I am wrong about that, then you REALLY are not making any sense. If I am right about that, then you are, yet again, insisting everyone gets mired down in semantics.
    #238
    Deb-8-a-bull
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    Anyone here ever meet a hot chick named Russell ? 

    Now I could be wrong butttttt. 
    I suspect.
    Transgender folks might be the most common " type " of peoples that have their names changed. 

    Wouldn't that be odd ?


    Being born the so called " wrong sex "   
    anddddddd
    Getting given the so called  " wrong name"

    Poor things. 
    I mean poor ummm. 
    No fuck it .
    Things it is. 





     

    #239
    Deb-8-a-bull
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    Ok Moving right along. 

    Tips and tricks for tucking and taping dicks ? 
    Anyone? 



    #240
    badger
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    I assume the "it's not an ideology" angle is the parallel to "it's not a choice" where it comes to homosexuality, which is fair enough. I don't know how Christians are still getting a pass on this "it's a sin" shit tbh. Nothing more than organised bigotry. I mean I'm not gay or anything, and I guess I don't feel the pressures in this, but reading some of oro's posts I guess it just clicked. It's a great wrong that this group of people should feel put upon by others just for being who they are. Maybe you can find a bit of perspective on all the in-your-face pride stuff in that. That's the ideology you're all talking about. These folks spent years hiding what they are.