The Lords Prayer

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 35
Topic's author
#1
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
I had my memory jogged on another thread concerning what Christians call; "The Lord's Prayer". I made the comment that it "Sounds to me very much like a poem from the Egyptian Book of the Dead".


In the New Testament;
"his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taughthis disciples”. Luke 11:1-4

And Jesus goes on to say:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


Just as Moses had changed  the Egyptian confession in the negative known as a prayer (spell) to Ani  from   “I have not”, to laws and dictates  and reproduced them as commandments of “you shall not” , so too it appears that Jesus did similar with the prayer known to Christians as  The Lord's Prayer. And it appears to be part of the same spell offered to the Egyptian scribe Ani. Spell 125.  The Lords Prayer ends with  the invocation Amen.Matthew 6:13<<<< I wonder of Christians understand that?
 
The name of these texts asthey were originally known was, The Book of the Going Forth by Day,or Into the Light, which in the secondaddress to Amen was a part of one of these spells and begins as an address on behalf of the dead on his journey through the under world. “OAmen, O Amen, who art in heaven”.  Egyptian Gods. Budge. Vol 2 P 19.

 And because I am far too bone idle these days to go thumbing through my books, I found this online. Make up your own mind.





#2
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,591
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Stephen

Yes, “The Lord’s Prayer, as defined by Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4, was originally transposed from an Egyptian prayer to the state-god Amen.
#3
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Yep, as I've said all along.

It's always older stuff rehashed.

Unless the Egyptian Pharaohs  were actually big-headed aliens.

I imagine that it all started with the Sun and the Moon and some naked dancing etc.

And got more elaborate as time went by.

And people went and spoiled it all by saying something stupid,

Like it's sinful.

In the style of Frank and Nancy.
#4
b9_ntt
b9_ntt's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 276
0
2
5
b9_ntt's avatar
b9_ntt
0
2
5
Amen!
Topic's author
#5
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@b9_ntt
Amen!

Amen, indeed. And it wouldn't have been the first time that the people of  IS- RA - EL  were to invoke the Egyptian Sun god Ra, either.
I may have mentioned to you that in the GnosticGospels of an incident in which Jesus orders his disciples to ‘answerAmen to Me’, and quoting the disciples further “he began tointone a mystical chant, which reads in part;

“Tothe universe belongs to the dancer.’ – ‘Amen’.
‘Hewho does not dance does not know what happens’ – ‘Amen’.
‘Nowyou follow my dance’. – ‘Amen’.
‘ For you could by no means haveunderstood what you suffer’. – ‘Amen’.


And the in the OT we can read  the name Amen numerous times. Just to name a few:

Andthe woman shall say, Amen, Amen”. Numbers 5: 22.KJV

And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen and Amen. Psalm 72:19

Then all the people shall say, “Amen” Deuteronomy 27:15

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting Amen and Amen. Psalm 41:13

 Ezra praised the Lord, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, “Amen! Amen!” Nehemiah 8:6

Jesu himself is called the Amen, I revelation, too.







#6
Skipper_Sr
Skipper_Sr's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 299
1
2
7
Skipper_Sr's avatar
Skipper_Sr
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
The Egyptian prayers were created before Jesus told his disciples about The Lord's Prayer?
Topic's author
#7
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Skipper_Sr
The Egyptian prayers were created before Jesus told his disciples about The Lord's Prayer?

Indeed that is what the records appear to show. And as I also mentioned above,  Moses had changed  the Egyptian confession in the negative known as a prayer (spell) to Ani  from   “I have not”, to laws and dictates  and reproduced them as commandments of “you shall not” .  
#8
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
Come on.  It's a prayer to a God.  Anyone who is religious will say something very similar to their God.  The fact that it has ONE word that is the same in a line does not mean it was copied or plagiarized.  

Do a quick search for the God Amun (not Amen).  He is the God of the air.  There is a God Amun-Ra, who is a high deity.

Hebrew word Amen means truth, or certainty.  The name Amun means "the hidden One" in the hieroglyphics.  Completely different ideas for it.

There is no connection.

Stop trying to make leaps and bounds to connect two things together.  Talk about faith!
Topic's author
#9
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
You are entitled to your opinion.
The god Amun also known as Amon, Ammon and Amen is a powerful ancient Egyptian deity from the Old Kingdom together with his consort Amaunet. With the 11th dynasty (c. 21st century BC).

#10
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
Semantics, but okay.  You can call him Amen.

Just because the words are the same does not mean they are the same meaning in different languages.  I will keep this "opinion" to myself.
#11
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,509
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
I'm not surprised. It is said that Jesus went to Egypt to learn stuff. I guess that's why Jesus' life up to his thirties is not told in the NT. And that's why many stories in the NT are similar to the ones in egyptian religion, related to the HORUS or something like that.
Topic's author
#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@IlDiavolo
I'm not surprised. It is said that Jesus went to Egypt to learn stuff. I guess that's why Jesus' life up to his thirties is not told in the NT. And that's why many stories in the NT are similar to the ones in Egyptian religion, related to the HORUS or something like that.


 Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" but the one in particular that is awkward for Christians is the cult of Mithra; born of a virgin, in a stable on 25 December  over 600 years before Christ!!!! Mithraism is an off-shoot of the more ancient Persian cult of Zoroaster which was introduced into the Roman Empire around 67 BC.
Examples:
Gautama Buddha:  born of the virgin Maya  Around 600 BC

Dionysus:  Greek god, born of a virgin in a stable and turned water into wine !!!

Quirrnus:  born of a virgin and known as a Saviour.

Attis:  born of a virgin in Phrygia around 200 BC

Indra:  born of a virgin in Tibet around 700 BC.

Krishna: Hindu god, born of a virgin Devaki around 1200BC.

Adonis:  Babylonian god born of a virgin Ishtar. 

Zoroaster: born of a virgin around 1500 BC.

The interesting thing about Christianity is that it most certainly borrowed from many other cults. But the one they seem to want to forget are the Sumerian cults. The very land that Abraham and all biblical characters before him had their roots.

Denial doesn't even cover it 


#13
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" 
Stephen, if there are similarities to the birth of Christ, it is because the messiah was prophesied after the fall in the garden. (Bruise your heel, crush his head)  The story spreads as does humankind across the globe.  Same reason there are so many flood stories.

If you have a society in turmoil but there has been a promise of one day suffering will end when the messiah comes, then it makes sense that all religions will have some sort of messiah in their repertoire.  There is no mention of God talking to others in the world and giving them enlightenment like Abraham, BUT the wise men seeking Jesus from the east knew to follow a star to the house.  How far east were these Magi and where is the star prophesy in the bible?  There apparently were other people that were told of the coming messiah since HE was for the whole world, not only for the Jews.

So the fact that there are stories of a saving avatar of God coming is not uncommon.  Also, these gods are recycled myths from the previous civilizations, so they are not necessarily independent of each other.

BTW, Jesus was not born on the 25th of December.  Look it up.

Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus?  I haven't found one but it would mean to me that the messiah notion is no longer given by God.
Topic's author
#14
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" 
Stephen, if there are similarities to the birth of Christ, it is because the messiah was prophesied after the fall in the garden. (Bruise your heel, crush his head) .

Nothing to do with Jesus

not only for the Jews.

The bible  has Jesus categorically stating that he came ONLY to the lost tribes of IS-RA-EL



BTW, Jesus was not born on the 25th of December.  Look it up.

I don't have to look it up. I know that it is yet another myth that Christians have wrapped around a very human man they called the Christ.


Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus? 

What is a "serious religion"? Muslims do not believe Jesus was god or the son of god.



#15
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
What was the statement in the garden referring to?  Enlighten me.

The bible also states that he was crucified for the whole W-O-R-L-D.  I'm not sure what Jesus was referring to when he said that.  Again, enlighten me.

If by Christians, you mean catholic, then you are correct.  The bible never mentions the celebration of Christ-mass.  Point is, the idea that December 25th being an argument for you has no relevance since the bible doesn't support Christ-mass.

Serious, as in realistic.  Not something that is a scheme like Jim Jones, Waco Texas, aliens, etc.  I'm trying to narrow the category so I don't get a "well, some guy in Idaho says he's the messiah" thing.
#16
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@DavidAZ
Timeline and location inextricably link them.

Get real.

It's not as if the "Holy Land" was surrounded by an impenetrable force field until J came along.
#17
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@zedvictor4
Zed, I didn't say they had some sort of isolated society.  I said that the fact that almost all ancient religions have a "messiah" means it came from a single source, very much like the flood stories.

Whether it came from God or from some ancient guy picking his butt figuring out how to get the masses to follow him, that is up to you.

Just because they are similar doesn't mean it had been plagiarized.
#18
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
@zedvictor4
Besides, "inextricably" is a pretty bold statement. 

It's funny with you guys that anything bible is easily refutable and anything else that you agree with is "inextricably" obvious. 

Just saying that there may be a different reason behind some things other than the parrot talk you guys give credit to.
#19
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@DavidAZ
Well, come on.

One step across the imaginary line in the desert and your in Egypt.

It's not plagiarism is it.

It's simply transferred shared and modified  ideas.

And then ship it to Rome, and Bob's your Uncle.

And send it on a Camel to Mecca, and Fanny's your Aunty.
Topic's author
#20
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
What was the statement in the garden referring to?  Enlighten me.

Well you should first prove how the statement relates to the man Christians call Jesus the Jew messiah. It was your own claim sunshine. Not mine.


The bible also states that he was crucified for the whole W-O-R-L-D.  I'm not sure what Jesus was referring to when he said that.  Again, enlighten me.

Well again, it is yet another unsupported claim made by you. I have shown you what Jesus the Jew himself says about coming ONLY to the lost people (sheep) of
IS-RA-EL.
" “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 15:24 There were no Christians in Palestine at the time of Jesus the Jew. in fact he never mentions the word Christian in the whole of the gospels and neither do the gospel authors.


  Point is, the idea that December 25th being an argument for you has no relevance since the bible doesn't support Christ-mass.

No my point is the myth warped around a very human Jesus concerning his date of birth was taken from a much older pagan (more likely Roman) myth. No one can say when Jesus the Jew was supposed to have been born and not even the gospel writers can agree either.


Serious, as in realistic.  Not something that is a scheme like Jim Jones, Waco Texas, aliens, etc.  I'm trying to narrow the category so I don't get a "well, some guy in Idaho says he's the messiah" thing.
Ok so returning to your question: "Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus the Jew?"

There is a branch of Christianity; preterist, that  believe Jesus has been and gone while Jews are still waiting for the messiah.

and the most "recent serious religion" is Islam that does not believe Jesus was god or the son of god, was crucified and resurrected. Why are they wrong and you right?


#21
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
Stephen,

Well you should first prove how the statement relates to the man Christians call Jesus the messiah. It was your own claim sunshine. Not mine.
Without wasting my time with you on this subject, the reference is easily meaning the destruction of evil at the price for the messiah.  You saying "no it doesn't" does not make me have to do anything.  

Well again, it is yet another unsupported claim made by you. I have shown you what Jesus himself says about coming ONLY to the lost people (sheep) of IS-RA-EL.
" “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 15:24
Same as above, but there is a lot of scripture showing that Jesus's crucifixion was for all and not only for the Jews.  You are clueless on the bible if you call my claim unsupported.  I already admitted I didn't know what Jesus meant when he said he coming for the lost sheep of Israel.  If you know what he meant about this, enlighten me instead.

No my point is the myth warped around a very human Jesus concerning his date of birth was taken from a much older pagan (more likely Roman) myth. No one can say when Jesus the Jew was supposed to have been born and not even the gospel writers can agree either.

Got it.  I agree that the Christ-mass myth is pulled from pagan origins. 


Ok so returning to your question: "Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus the Jew?"
My point exactly.  No formed religion after Jesus's death has a tenant of a messiah involved with it.

BTW, I'm curious to know your religious background, if you don't mind.  Some of your statements would make more sense if I could know what amount of knowledge you have with the bible.
Topic's author
#22
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
Ok so returning to your question: "Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus the Jew?"
My point exactly.  No formed religion after Jesus's death has a tenant of a messiah involved with it.
So?  It proves nothing, I'm afraid.  I have said: There is a branch of Christianity; preterist, that  believe Jesus has been and gone while ,Jews of which Jesus was one, are still waiting for the messiah.


“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 15:24
There were no Christians in Palestine at the time of Jesus the Jew. In fact he, Jesus the Jew never once mentions the word Christian in the whole of the gospels and neither do the gospel authors.

It seems  a desperate attempt on your own part to link Jesus the Jew to something that had supposed to have happened thousands of years before in the land of Summer.

I'm curious to know your religious background, if you don't mind

I do mind.
#23
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
So?  It proves nothing, I'm afraid.
For you maybe, but my point is that there are no new religions looking for a messiah.  They are all ancient.

There were no Christians in Palestine at the time of Jesus the Jew. In fact he, Jesus the Jew never once mentions the word Christian in the whole of the gospels and neither do the gospel authors.
I'm not trying to split hairs here, but you do realize that a Christian is a follower of Christ, right?  You are correct, there was no such thing as a Christian during the time of Christ, but it is because the term "Christian" didn't come about till after Jesus's death.  

It seems  a desperate attempt on your own part to link Jesus the Jew to something that had supposed to have happened thousands of years before in the land of Summer.
I can definitely see your opposition if you don't believe the bible, specifically the new testament.  I didn't create the link between the two, but the story in the old testament links with the new, so it's easy to see the connection.  The need for a savior, Mosaic law as school master, Jesus it the savior.  Not that hard or that desperate.

I do mind.
Don't be afraid to say what you are.  I can't hurt you.
Topic's author
#24
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
So?  It proves nothing, I'm afraid.
For you maybe, but my point is that there are no new religions looking for a messiah.  They are all ancient.
All? 
Well that will depend on a few things. And one relies of what constitutes a messiah. 


There were no Christians in Palestine at the time of Jesus the Jew. In fact he, Jesus the Jew never once mentions the word Christian in the whole of the gospels and neither do the gospel authors.
I'm not trying to split hairs here, but you do realize that a Christian is a follower of Christ, right?  You are correct, there was no such thing as a Christian during the time of Christ, but it is because the term "Christian" didn't come about till after Jesus's death.  
Indeed. A  completely new religion, which I do not believe  Jesus ever intended create, especially in his name.  He was a failed "Messiah" as were those other Messiah's that came and went before him.

They are all ancient.
  
David -Ben Gurion springs to mind


#25
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
Indeed. A  completely new religion, which I do not believe  Jesus ever intended create, especially in his name.  He was a failed "Messiah" as were those other Messiah's that came and went before him.
Are you saying that Jesus was not the messiah or that he could have been the messiah but failed?  I'm just trying to pick up what you are putting down.

Also, you are saying that others built up Jesus to the status of "Messiah" and created a religion around it known as Christianity?
#26
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@DavidAZ

.
DavidAZ,

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY QUOTE: " You are correct, there was no such thing as a Christian during the time of Christ, but it is because the term "Christian" didn't come about till after Jesus's death."

With your quote above, are you calling Jesus' inspired words shown below that mention CHRISTIANS as lies at the time of His earthly presence, where your Bible stupid quote above says that the term "Christian" didn't come about until AFTER Jesus' death?! Huh?

‘Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.” (1 Peter 4:16)

“And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.” (Acts 11:26)

And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?” (Acts 26:28)


Furthermore, in your debate entitled "Jesus is God," where you erroneously say Jesus is God, but refrain from my comments #4 and #6 in said debate comments section, in showing that Jesus is the Son of God, and actually god, shows a blatant CONTRADICTION and therefore as explained, are FALSEHOODS and LIES, because both propositions cannot be true at the same time, get it Bible fool?
.
Topic's author
#27
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@DavidAZ
Indeed. A  completely new religion, which I do not believe  Jesus ever intended create, especially in his name.  He was a failed "Messiah" as were those other Messiah's that came and went before him.
Are you saying that Jesus was not the messiah or that he could have been the messiah but failed?
I am saying that  Christians will have us believe that Jesus was the messiah, but he couldn't have been because he hadn't fulfilled the requirements of what was  expected of the expected Jewish messiah. That is why is say failed "messiah"

I believe he simply believed (or was led to believe) that he was rightful heir to the throne of Jerusalem. A returning king come to reclaim his throne and could well have been.. I believe that there is some curcumstacial evidence in the bible that suggest this... if the bible is in any way to be believed.


others.....and created a religion around it known as Christianity?

Others created Christianity and well after the death  of Jesus . IMO I believe that Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new religion had sprang up in  his name. 


#28
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@DavidAZ


.
DavidAZ, who is vying to be more Bible Stupid than Miss Tradesecret,

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE CONTINUES WITH THIS QUOTE:  "There apparently were other people that were told of the coming messiah since HE was for the whole world, not only for the Jews."

How can Jesus be the  messiah when He was NOT born from the line of David, you Bible ignorant fool?!!

BIBLE FACT:  The Messiah must be a physical descendant by the fruit of the loins of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet Jesus was not in any way related to King David by the “FLESH” because Joseph was not the paternal father of Jesus who was from the line of David.  Therefore, our serial killer Jesus was born from the “FLESH” of His mother Mary from the descent of Levi, and is not from the line of David as prophesied, therefore passing her LEVITE genes into Jesus!  GET IT?

Therefore, the next time you dust your Bible off, remove this passage from it herewith: "Concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3)


Now, if you want to "try" and use one of the genealogies of Jesus in Luke and Matthew as one being from Mary, then I will easily BIBLE SLAP YOU SILLY®️ in return, understand Bible fool? 

.

#29
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,

I appreciate the bible knowledge that you have instilled in me.  I am also grateful it is not the same "knowledge" that you "instill" in your lesser class people in the nudist camp.  Surely a man of God such as yourself can provide the whole world with your bible sense and capabilities given that all lesser class will hear your cry and heed to your instruction.

On a less serious note, your point about after the flesh is noted.  Thanks for the challenge of the scriptures.
#30
DavidAZ
DavidAZ's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 345
1
2
8
DavidAZ's avatar
DavidAZ
1
2
8
-->
@Stephen
I see what you are saying now.  Let me chew on this.

As for the fulfilled requirements, what requirements were not fulfilled?  Please don't ask me to list any of them because I wouldn't be able to rattle them off.

Thanks for the feedback.