End the vaccine mandates!

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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People claim vaccine mandates are in the name of public health.  I'm just curious as to how far does the, "public health" argument go?  Like would you mandate boosters for example?

Why Do Vaccinated People Represent Most COVID-19 Deaths Right Now? | KFF claims that the majority of dead people from COVID are vaccinated people (60%) while COVID vaccination rates - Search (bing.com) states that less than 2/3 of the US population is fully vaxxed or more.

In other words, being vaccinated alone barely prevents you from dying of COVID.

To be fair, the article calls for getting people to get boosters.  But only about 1 in 3 Americans have the booster.  Are you REALLY going to mandate something that less than a third of the country has for every job out there and to enter restaurants?

Comparing vaccine mandates to the Holocaust as what MTG did; horrible comparison; really, that's just pathetic.

But vaccine mandates nonetheless aren't worth keeping around because excluding the majority of society from public life over a vaccine that not taking it makes you less than 1 pt more likely to die of COVID than without the vacciene.

There are but 2 non arbitrary positions you can take with regard to vacciene mandates, don't mandate any shots or mandate the updated booster.  Mandating the updated booster excludes the vast majority of America (Less than 4% of U.S. adults have gotten updated Covid booster shots (nbcnews.com)).

So the only consistent option is no vacciene mandates.

If 99.9% of the US population got their boosters, then you could conceive of mandating the booster; but when it's about 1/3 of the country, it's not pragmatic.
#2
oromagi
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@TheUnderdog
In other words, being vaccinated alone barely prevents you from dying of COVID.


Scientific American:
"this perception is an example of a phenomenon known as the base rate fallacy. One also has to consider the denominator of the fraction—that is, the sizes of the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. With shots widely available to almost all age groups, the majority of the U.S. population has been vaccinated. So even if only a small fraction of vaccinated people who get COVID die from it, the more people who are vaccinated, the more likely they are to make up a portion of the dead."

In order to avoid the pitfalls of absolute numbers, it is useful to instead look at incidence rates—usually expressed as the number of deaths per 100,000 people. Standardizing the denominator across all groups offers a very different picture.

  • So if  we take a look at the last week of 2022,
    • if we looked at a slice of 100,000 unvaccinated Americans-  43.27  or one out of every 2,311 unvaccinated Americans died of COVID that week.
    • if we looked at a slice of 100,000 vaccinated Americans- 10.92 or one out of every 9,157 vaccinated Americans died of COVID that week
    • if we looked at a slice of 100,000 boosted Americans- 5.02 or one out of every 19,920 boosted Americans died of COVID that week
It is also important to consider the ages of those who are dying. People 65 and older make up the group that is both the most likely to be vaccinated (and boosted) and the most likely to die of COVID. (Being older is one of the biggest risk factors for severe COVID because the immune system weakens with age.) So when you separate the age groups, it becomes even clearer that vaccination reduces the risk of death. And because immune protection from vaccination wanes with time, and because some older people do not mount a good immune response to the primary series, being boosted reduces that risk even further.

  • So if  we take a look again at the last week of 2022, only 1.43 or one out of ever  69,930 unvaccinated Americans under 65 years old died of COVID that week
  • but only .37 or one out every 270,270 vaccinated Americans under 65 died of COVID that week and
  • no boosted Americans under the age of 65 died from COVID that week.
An additional factor to consider is that as the pandemic wears on and a disproportionate number of unvaccinated people die from COVID, the unvaccinated population shrinks. This leaves a comparatively larger vaccinated group, leading to an increase in total deaths despite the lower death rate among vaccinated people. No vaccine is 100 percent effective, but immunization reduces the risk of dying from COVID substantially.

In other words, it  is false to claim that "being vaccinated alone barely prevents you from dying of COVID."  The last  weekof December, unvaccinated people died from COVID at about 4 times the rate of vaccinated people and ten times the rate of boosted people.



#3
ludofl3x
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@TheUnderdog
Are you REALLY going to mandate something that less than a third of the country has for every job out there and to enter restaurants?
I live in the Northeast, and no restaurant or anyplace else is asking for vaccines to enter anywhere at this point. I'm not sure what mandate you want to end. I've been all over the place over the last six months, too, red state and blue, and again no one is asking for the vaccination status or to see my card. Are you sure this is an actual problem?
#4
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
You have it backwards, if there is enough vaccine for everyone and it is effective enough to prevent transmission there is still no moral justification since everyone who has anything to fear can protect themselves.

Logic permits only a very limited case where not taking a vaccine and then walking around could be considered a threat of aggression.

Government has no right to force people to do anything "for their own good".
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#5
TheUnderdog
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@oromagi
People 65 and older make up the group that is both the most likely to be vaccinated (and boosted) and the most likely to die of COVID.
Fair point I think.  Your smart and I respect that.

So I'm pro vaccine and pro promoting the vaccine, but against firing people from their jobs over not getting the vacciene.
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#6
TheUnderdog
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@ludofl3x
I hope the mandates are gone, but plenty of people online have wanted there to still be a vacciene mandate on Quora, so I'd figure I don't want people losing their jobs over not being vaccinated.

I live in the Northeast, and no restaurant or anyplace else is asking for vaccines to enter anywhere at this point.
I live in the northeast as well, and most northeast places don't have a mandate, but NYC does and a few smaller cities do as well.  NYC's unemployment rate could be a lot lower if they don't force people to get vaccinated.
#7
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@TheUnderdog
Is it NYC, or is it businesses in NYC? 
#8
Greyparrot
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@TheUnderdog
I haven't seen any current mandates for vaccines in the North East either.
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#9
TheUnderdog
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@ludofl3x
I think both.
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#10
TheUnderdog
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@Greyparrot
I think NYC has a vacciene mandate, but that's the biggest place that does (except maybe NY state).
#11
Sidewalker
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@TheUnderdog
I hope the mandates are gone, but plenty of people online have wanted there to still be a vacciene mandate on Quora, so I'd figure I don't want people losing their jobs over not being vaccinated.

I live in the Northeast, and no restaurant or anyplace else is asking for vaccines to enter anywhere at this point.
I live in the northeast as well, and most northeast places don't have a mandate, but NYC does and a few smaller cities do as well.  NYC's unemployment rate could be a lot lower if they don't force people to get vaccinated.
There are no current vaccine mandates in NYC, the last to be removed were City Emplyees and school staff, removed early February, all others were removed more than a year ago.

There are very few vaccine mandates in effect nationally, and they are almost all for health care workers only.
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#12
TheUnderdog
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@Sidewalker
There are no current vaccine mandates in NYC, the last to be removed were City Emplyees and school staff, removed early February, all others were removed more than a year ago.
Oh; if the mandates are gone, victory.

There are very few vaccine mandates in effect nationally, and they are almost all for health care workers only.
I don’t think someone who spends nearly a decade in post secondary education should be fired from their job over not wanting to be vaccinated.  Especially since over 99% of the people that get COVID survive.
#13
Sidewalker
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@TheUnderdog
There are no current vaccine mandates in NYC, the last to be removed were City Emplyees and school staff, removed early February, all others were removed more than a year ago.
Oh; if the mandates are gone, victory.

There are very few vaccine mandates in effect nationally, and they are almost all for health care workers only.
I don’t think someone who spends nearly a decade in post secondary education should be fired from their job over not wanting to be vaccinated.  Especially since over 99% of the people that get COVID survive.
Health care workers are the most likely to contract Covid, and the most likely to spread it to the most vulnerable people, I don't see why "not wanting to be vaccinated" trumps that.   

Do you think giving a speeding ticket to someone even though they don't want to go the speed limit is reasonable, especially since 99% of people who speed don't kill anyone?  
#14
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@Sidewalker
 and the most likely to spread it to the most vulnerable people...

What does that have to do with the Covid vaccine?
#15
Sidewalker
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@Greyparrot
 and the most likely to spread it to the most vulnerable people...

What does that have to do with the Covid vaccine?
It's why the Covid vaccine is mandated for some health care workers, try to pay attention.
#16
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@Sidewalker
About half of the country was exposed to Covid or a variant both symptomatic and asymptomatic despite being mostly vaccinated. While asymptomatic infection rates went up among the vaccinated, asymptomatic transmission also went up. None of the vaccine companies are saying it prevents transmission to any effective degree anymore. Its known that the average adult gets some form of the flu twice a decade.
Source Which corroborates the estimates of the Covid spread.

There's tons of articles out there showing how asymptomatic vaccinated nurses went around and  still spread covid around the hospital.

Asking healthy people to take a vaccine to protect the sick and elderly is like asking car drivers to wear a helmet to protect bicyclists.

Try to pay attention.
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#17
TheUnderdog
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@Sidewalker
Health care workers are the most likely to contract Covid, and the most likely to spread it to the most vulnerable people, I don't see why "not wanting to be vaccinated" trumps that.   
25% of the US population got COVID.  For this statement to be true, you need a source claiming over 25% of Hospital workers got COVID.  If they got COVID and already survived, they have natural immunity (and this works better than the vacciene).

Do you think giving a speeding ticket to someone even though they don't want to go the speed limit is reasonable, especially since 99% of people who speed don't kill anyone?  
I speed regularly, and if I said the penalty for speeding should be a fine, I would be a hypocrite.  I think speed limits should be doubled nationwide and then actually enforced with cops on the streets.  It creates jobs and I think it would probably reduce car accident rates.
#18
ludofl3x
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@TheUnderdog
 I think speed limits should be doubled nationwide and then actually enforced with cops on the streets. 
How many more cops, exactly? What do you think the right "cop to driver" ratio should be? 
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#19
TheUnderdog
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