Optimal Definition of Personhood?

Author: Barney

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Barney
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Curious how other people believe it ought to be defined?

I personally believe it should reside with three pillars:
  1. Significant recognizable intelligence,
  2. Demonstratable sentience, and
  3. Awareness of self.
While biology is the most common precursor we've seen for these, I do not believe that is ideal long term as a requirement. While it's a comedy, the movie Ted showcases the horrors to which a human standard leads (intelligent sentient beings who are aware of themselves, being kidnapped, mutilated, and murdered without any legal protections).

A potential drawback to my definition, is a lack of an empathy requirement. Narcissistic assholes are still people, even if we would rather they not be.
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@Barney

personhood [noun]
  1. The state or period of being a person
  2. The status of being considered as a person.
    • ex.  A majority of the present world's peoples delay the conferral of personhood (to children).
person [noun]
  1. An individual; usually a human being. [from 13th c.]

While that generally overlaps with your definition:

  1. Significant recognizable intelligence,
  2. Demonstratable sentience, and
  3. Awareness of self.
I'd raise the example of an adult in a coma.  I would always consider an adult in a coma a PERSON, because they have  a history of demonstrated individuality and humanity even though they no longer demonstrate intelligence, sentience, or self-awareness.

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@Barney
A person is an individual human.

Though the diversity of language and vocabulary and the potential for varying definition and interpretation means that we can argue the toss over personhood at length.

Nonetheless, most of what you cite refers to the function and processes of a person's onboard computer.

Which for sure, is one big difference between a living person and a dead person.

Though you might argue that a dead person is not a person but a defunct blob of organic goo.

Such is the potential of language and vocabulary.
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A person is anything that is human and that benefits existence of human life.

You dont get it? Go back to school and learn biology.
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@Barney
Curious how other people believe it ought to be defined?

I personally believe it should reside with three pillars:
  1. Significant recognizable intelligence,
  2. Demonstratable sentience, and
  3. Awareness of self.
While biology is the most common precursor we've seen for these, I do not believe that is ideal long term as a requirement. While it's a comedy, the movie Ted showcases the horrors to which a human standard leads (intelligent sentient beings who are aware of themselves, being kidnapped, mutilated, and murdered without any legal protections).

A potential drawback to my definition, is a lack of an empathy requirement. Narcissistic assholes are still people, even if we would rather they not be.
The problem with a functional definition is that it implies degrees of personhood, are children and mentally disabled adults less of a person?  It also would extend personhood to other species such as Great Apes, dolphins, and elephants for instance, perhaps even some AI programs meet the qualifications of personhood. 

The question of personhood is a matter of assigning rights and duties, legally,  children are considered to have a lower degree of personhood, they have legal protections of personhood, you can't kill them, but they also have fewer rights than an adult.  

The big legal question of personhood is in the abortion debate of course, and a functional definition like this just doesn't  provide any guidance to temporal  demarcation. Including the "potential" for these functional developments makes some sense but still gives no guidance for at what point in time that potential applies, and including "potential" further complicates the demarcation between species and AI.  
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@oromagi
I'd raise the example of an adult in a coma.
Great point. While I’d argue a body truly brain dead kept alive by machines isn’t that person anymore, for any likely temporary condition they still are that person.

Similarly, a drunk does not cease to be a person just because they currently fail at tool usage.
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@zedvictor4
A person is an individual human.
I believe we are approaching a time when that is too restrictive a definition.

If we recreate someone’s mind as software (such as in the show Upload, where rich people have a digital afterlife) that AI would not be human but should still be considered a person.

If we ever come across extraterrestrial intelligence, while they would most certainly not be human in form, but they would nonetheless be people.

We already have a very troubling history of maltreatment towards anyone who doesn’t look like us. So I believe a definition which is not so easily abused by xenophobes would be preferable.
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@Sidewalker
The problem with a functional definition is that it implies degrees of personhood, are children and mentally disabled adults less of a person?  It also would extend personhood to other species such as Great Apes, dolphins, and elephants for instance, perhaps even some AI programs meet the qualifications of personhood.
Much of my point is that personhood should be considered for other intelligent species, even if the form differs from our own. The Transatlantic Slave Trade was deplorable, as was the Three-fifths Compromise. We should strive to avoid similar mistakes in the future. While I don't believe a dog or a cow should be classified as a person, I don't see an issue with classifying an elephant as one.


The question of personhood is a matter of assigning rights and duties, legally,  children are considered to have a lower degree of personhood, they have legal protections of personhood, you can't kill them, but they also have fewer rights than an adult.  
While there's plenty of crossover, that sounds more like the distinction of citizenship. Even a foreign child is protected from harm, but by default will never have the voting privileges.


The big legal question of personhood is in the abortion debate of course, and a functional definition like this just doesn't  provide any guidance to temporal  demarcation. Including the "potential" for these functional developments makes some sense but still gives no guidance for at what point in time that potential applies, and including "potential" further complicates the demarcation between species and AI.  
IMO AIs at a certain point should be both people, and (if contributing to society) citizens. Heck, corporations are already considered people for legal purposes.
As for abortion: I don't believe there is anything special about human DNA if not connected to a mind. If we grow brainless human husks for organ harvesting, I don't see any moral issue as no harm is experienced by any being even capable of awareness.

Take the old trolly problem of saving embryos or a smaller number of actual children: the choice to save the children is universal, because they're people, even while both groups are human.
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@Best.Korea
A person is anything that is human and that benefits existence of human life.
Plenty of humans do not benefit human life, even taking offense that others do. And some are even detrimental to human life as a whole.
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@Barney
"Plenty of humans do not benefit human life"

Human life = humans

To say that plenty of humans dont benefit human life, when their mere existence contributes to the amount of human life, is too stupid to even read.

Better luck next time.
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@Best.Korea
Some humans harm others to an equal or greater extent than the weight of the mere existence of their bio-mass.

Russia trying to start WWIII is massively detrimental to human life (outright risking extinction of humanity). While not every Russian is guilty of that, those who support the war effort are.
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@oromagi
A person in a coma isn’t any less of a person. 
From birth a person will always be a person whether they are awake, asleep, in a coma, under anesthesia, etc. One doesn’t cease being a person, or lose their personhood, under any of those situations/circumstances. 
The ONLY time a person loses their status of being a person (their personhood) is upon DEATH.
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@Barney
If someone diminishes the amount of human life, he stops being human and is treated like wild animal that needs to be put down.
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@Best.Korea
Fair enough.
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@TWS1405_2
I believe you misread what oro wrote. He was giving criticism to my idea due to the risk of that being applied to someone in a coma for no longer displaying the criteria I proposed.

Admittedly, I don’t believe a newborn is quite yet a person, even while they and their family are entitled to protections. My core idea is that a mind defines unique personhood.

To use a fallacious example: a cat develops a diet of people. After long enough molecularly we can determine its carbon came from humans. IMO it does not thus attain personhood.
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@Barney
A newborn is a person. It’s enshrined n law and been socially, culturally, and psychologically accepted as such for eons. 
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My mind was actually on this topic a few days ago,
As I was thinking about Fantasy novels,

In some, intelligent animals or intelligent mythical creatures exist,
Sometimes intelligent carnivores exist,

I'd suppose such a world would at times have a sort of protocol,
After capturing prey,
Whether it is wearing clothing,
Try to remember if you've ever heard of this descripted creatures before,
Whether it has tools,
Uses tools,
Builds houses,
And so on,

Though,
Animals build burrows, dams,
Crows can use tools,
Some intelligent animals lack appendages to do many activities we associate with intelligence,
Or perhaps have different types of language, such as body language, or frequency we can't hear,
Have different socialization,
I've seen dogs in sweaters,
Might just be too scared to act intelligent,

Though all I say above, doesn't 'quite say what personhood ought be defined as,
Also 'this comes to mind somehow,

I suppose dogs respond to their names once conditioned,
Though I'm doubtful they think to themselves, my name is Spot.

. . .

I suppose if someone ate my dog,
I'd say they ate Spot,
Rather than they ate my 'dog,
But perhaps this is  anthropomorphizing?
Hm, I don't think so.

Though anthropomorphizing, to relate human qualities, is different than to relate 'person qualities, perhaps.
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@TWS1405_2
A newborn is a person. It’s enshrined n law and been socially, culturally, and psychologically accepted as such for eons. 
I live in the USA, where just two hundred years ago they also had to have a skin color within the right ranges. Even today in certain religious fundamentalist areas, you must have a penis to be considered a real person.

So really, there's not a universally accepted standard.
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@Barney
I live CONUS too, and everything you just replied with is pure unsubstantiated conjectural nonsense. 
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@Barney
The problem with a functional definition is that it implies degrees of personhood, are children and mentally disabled adults less of a person?  It also would extend personhood to other species such as Great Apes, dolphins, and elephants for instance, perhaps even some AI programs meet the qualifications of personhood.
Much of my point is that personhood should be considered for other intelligent species, even if the form differs from our own. The Transatlantic Slave Trade was deplorable, as was the Three-fifths Compromise. We should strive to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
I tend to agree, but the demarcation problem with a functional definition remains, where do we draw the line, and how do we determine it?  A  contextual definition is necessary, and I think an assessment of "agency" has to be included.   The primary point of ascertaining personhood comes down determining how the person is to be treated morally, it's got to be a matter of reciprocation.  Personhood carries with it rights and responsibilities,  do we have the cognitive ability to reflect on how our actions might affect others, can we be held accountable for our actions as morally responsible causal agents?  

While I don't believe a dog or a cow should be classified as a person, I don't see an issue with classifying an elephant as one.
That's only because you've never met my dog, he's a better person than most of the people I know.  

The question of personhood is a matter of assigning rights and duties, legally,  children are considered to have a lower degree of personhood, they have legal protections of personhood, you can't kill them, but they also have fewer rights than an adult.  

While there's plenty of crossover, that sounds more like the distinction of citizenship. Even a foreign child is protected from harm, but by default will never have the voting privileges.
Understood, I made the point because it relates to the question of degrees of personhood, human beings go through stages, different degrees of personhood apply to an individual at different times.  So when we are talking about an ape or elephant, are we talking full personhood, partial personhood, how does the ape's personhood relate to a human being's, is it the same relationship to a human child? 
  
The big legal question of personhood is in the abortion debate of course, and a functional definition like this just doesn't  provide any guidance to temporal  demarcation. Including the "potential" for these functional developments makes some sense but still gives no guidance for at what point in time that potential applies, and including "potential" further complicates the demarcation between species and AI.  
IMO AIs at a certain point should be both people, and (if contributing to society) citizens. Heck, corporations are already considered people for legal purposes.
In what ways is an AI a person, presumably personhood confers rights and responsibilities, if the AI is a person, is it a crime to delete the program,  can turning off a computer be murder?  The different degrees of personhood makes for incredibly complicated considerations.

As for abortion: I don't believe there is anything special about human DNA if not connected to a mind. If we grow brainless human husks for organ harvesting, I don't see any moral issue as no harm is experienced by any being even capable of awareness.
Of course it's an explosive issue and it's all about where you draw the line temporally, at what point in our cognitive development does personhood arrive?  

Take the old trolly problem of saving embryos or a smaller number of actual children: the choice to save the children is universal, because they're people, even while both groups are human.
In my opinion, the best argument ever to come along regarding abortion is the woman's argument that it's her body and her decision and it's really none of my business, I like it because it gives me an easy way out, my position is I don't have to have a position, because it's none of my business, thank you very much.  An argument that removes me from such an explosive issue is by my definition, a good argument :)
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@Sidewalker
There are NO stages of personhood. 🤦‍♂️

Personhood = person = born living human being. That’s it. All else is subjective conjectural Illogical nonsense. 
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@TWS1405_2
What is your definition of born exactly. 
I mean if we are trying to figure out what defines personhood, then we should go from where it starts, then when it ends.
Then from there we find a definition.
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@YouFound_Lxam
What is your definition of born exactly. 
See, it’s stupid ass shit like this that proves to everyone what an ignoramus you are. 

I mean if we are trying to figure out what defines personhood, then we should go from where it starts, then when it ends. Then from there we find a definition.
No shit sherlock, and I’ve already made the beginning and ending crystal clear. Birth and death. That’s it. 
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Well birth is just a baby leaving a womb. Does the passing through a vagina define personhood?
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@TWS1405_2
Or is birth just a vague term for you.
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I would say that to define personhood, birth isn't really a definite line we can base that assumption on, given that the vigina of a woman does not designate what personhood is.
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@YouFound_Lxam
And then you double down, strike that, you triple down on the stupid 💩 proving ever more what an ignoramus you are on this subject. 
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@Barney
As I stated it's all relative to humans and human language and vocabulary.

So make up a word and convert it to sound waves or a visible narrative.

How about henkilo.

Extra terrestrials might whistle or gurgle.

Interestingly though, the word comes from the Latin for an actors mask. So you might be on to something.


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@oromagi
  1. Significant recognizable intelligence,
  2. Demonstratable sentience, and
  3. Awareness of self.
I'd raise the example of an adult in a coma.  I would always consider an adult in a coma a PERSON, because they have  a history of demonstrated individuality and humanity even though they no longer demonstrate intelligence, sentience, or self-awareness.
This proposition is flawed for babies can be born with serious retardation - their ability to communicate much of anything, be aware of much of anything and even think of much of anything is seriously hindered. Per your definition, such babies would not have rights, becuase they have not demonstrated said characteristics in the past (they were just born) and thus killing them is an amoral act. 

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As a sort of meta-observation, I think it is slightly amusing when pro-choice advocates bend backwards to create a criteria which accomadates their belief, whilst excluding the lives which they deem unvaluable, whilst the pro-life position is forted with biological actulisation as it's single criteria, rending it immediate ontological parsimony.