Liz Cheney vs Joe Rogan

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 20
Topic's author
#1
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
Liz Cheney: Disagrees with the right wing base on one issue (2020 election) and agrees with the right on everything else (abortion, immigration, weed, homosexuality, welfare, vaccine mandates)

The right wing base: Get this RINO out of here.

The left wing base: Liz Cheney is a good republican.

Joe Rogan: Disagrees with the right wing base on many things (2020 election, weed, abortion, homosexuality, Trump, welfare).  Agrees with them on vaccine mandates.

The right wing base: Joe Rogan is based.

The left wing base: Joe Rogan is dangerous for spreading misinformation.  Censor him.

Me: The right wing base should view Liz Cheney better than Joe Rogan because Liz Cheney is more like them ideologically than Rogan is.  And the left wing base should view Joe Rogan better than Liz Cheney because Rogan is more like them than Cheney is.

But people don’t think for themselves and just listen to whatever social media they trust for all of their opinions, so most people don’t even know of this double standard.
#2
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Joe Rogan is a celebrity what he thinks  really shouldn't hold any weight he's not running for an office and he's not carrying an office.
Topic's author
#3
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
People listen to him.  I’m surprised you aren’t a fan of Rogan.  He’s pro choice, just like what you want.  I don’t get angry at people for their opinions due to free speech absolutism.
#4
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
The left wing base: Joe Rogan is dangerous for spreading misinformation.  Censor him.

  • Rogan was heavily criticized by the medical community for promoting a lot of obviously false and even voodoo magical claims.  Neil Young and Joni Mitchell pulled their work off spotify in protest but that is the opposite of censoring Rogan.  Many prominent leftists like Jon Stewart and Jann Wenner made a point of promoting Rogan's  freedom of speech while also pointing out the actual harms his stupidity was doing to his listeners.  I don't think it is accurate to characterize the left wing as calling for censoring Joe Rogan.  I don't think it is leftist to point out the harms Rogan's fake medical info does to his community- that's just stating facts.

#5
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
People listen to Beyonce and Liizzo too I don't think any of them should be compared to Liz Cheney. Joe Rogan may be pro-choice but he also has been involved in some stupid s***. Between the Man Show and Fear Factor I'm not sure he's really any sort of authority on anything. I don't give other celebrities any sort of extra credit because they might be pro-choice. There are plenty of musicians who are pure pro-life that I listen to their music because I like their music it has nothing to do with their personal choices as far as politics. I mean let's be honest Jimmy Page f***** 14-year-olds if I was going to hate Led Zeppelin I would.
Topic's author
#6
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@oromagi
 I don't think it is accurate to characterize the left wing as calling for censoring Joe Rogan.
I've met lefties who want to censor Joe Rogan in my personal life.  Neither the left nor the right is free speech absolutist and it's a problem.

I don't think it is leftist to point out the harms Rogan's fake medical info does to his community- that's just stating facts.
I support pointing out Rogan's bad anti vax ideology.  But there is a difference between using your free speech to counter something someone says and censoring those you disagree with.
#7
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11

I've met lefties who want to censor Joe Rogan in my personal life. 
  • anecdote.  We have discussed before that you have a distorted view of left/right.  I don't have much reason to trust your perception.
I support pointing out Rogan's bad anti vax ideology.  But there is a difference between using your free speech to counter something someone says and censoring those you disagree with.
  • Agreed.
    • There is also a difference between using free speech to criticize Rogan and censoring Rogan.  While I am sure you can find examples of Rogan complaining about censorship, I am wondering if you can find an example of actual censorship- private media deciding not to carry Rogan is not censorship- that is just business decsion-making.  Is anybody having any actual trouble finding out what Rogan thinks?  I doubt it.

Topic's author
#8
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
People listen to Beyonce and Liizzo too I don't think any of them should be compared to Liz Cheney.
I think Joe Rogan is more like Liz Cheney in terms of political relevance than Beyonce.  

Joe Rogan may be pro-choice but he also has been involved in some stupid s***
"He only agrees with me 60% of the time".

There are plenty of musicians who are pure pro-life that I listen to their music because I like their music it has nothing to do with their personal choices as far as politics.
I don't boycott music based solely on political ideology.  I boycott based on actions.  If your the father of an aborted baby, I don't care if you support Trump (kid rock), I'm not listening to your music and I don't think people should.

I mean let's be honest Jimmy Page f***** 14-year-olds if I was going to hate Led Zeppelin I would.
If he actually did that rape and I believed it, I would boycott Led Zepplin and encourage people to do the same.  But he's innocent until proven guilty.
#9
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
So how old are you exactly?
#10
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,088
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
I'm a fan of Rogan Josh.

I've never tried a Liz Cheney, is it very spicey?

I prefer plain boiled rice with mine.
#11
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
  •  I don't think it is leftist to point out the harms Rogan's fake medical info does to his community- that's just stating facts
I only listen to his interesting interviews like the one with Snowden.

My impression is that he isn't giving advice. He routinely talks about smoking weed tripping on hallucinogens, taking testosterone and other weird experiments he does with his body. I think he also gave himself a weird regimen to treat his Covid 19 symptoms. I don't think the guy promoted any point of view. Beyond that I think he is pretty aware and open about the fact that he doesn't know shit about medicine and just likes experimenting on his own body. 


#12
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
My impression is that he isn't giving advice... I think he is pretty aware and open about the fact that he doesn't know shit about medicine and just likes experimenting on his own body. 
  • Rogan has had it both ways: 
    • there are many claims he has deferred to expect opinion, specifically Fauci's
    • thre are also many claims he has stated as fact that are not in fact, including
      • vaccines are more harmful for young people  than infrection
      • if you get vaccinnated after an infection, there is a greater risk of side effects
      • Ivermectin cures COVID-19
      • The COVID-19 vaccinne alters your DNA

#13
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
I honestly don't believe he has stated those things. Citation please. Don't point me to an article or anything I want to hear him directly state those things with my own ears
#14
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON

      • vaccines are more harmful for young people  than infection
        • https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rogan-dont-need-to-worry-vaccine/
        • https://jrelibrary.com/1639-dave-smith/
          • "People say, do you think it’s safe to get vaccinated, and I’ve said, Yeah I think for the most part, it’s safe to get vaccinated, I do, I do. But if you say to me, you’re like 21 years old, and you say to me, ‘Should I get vaccinated?’ I’ll go no, are you healthy? Are you a healthy person? Like, look, don’t do anything stupid, but you should take care of yourself. If you’re a healthy person and you’re exercising all the time and you’re young and you’re eating well, I don’t think you need to worry about this.But there’s a lot of jobs that will tell you that you need to have this.  I can tell you as someone who, both my children got the virus, it was nothing. I hate to say that if someone’s children died from this, I’m very sorry that that happened, I’m not in any way diminishing that. But I’m saying, the personal experience that my children had with COVID was nothing. One of the kids had a headache, the other one didn’t feel good for a couple days.  No coughing, no aching, no in agony, there was none of that. It was very mild, it was akin to them getting a cold.  It’s amazing that that’s controversial. That even saying that, ‘I’m not going to inject my child with the vaccine,’ is controversial. It’s crazy, because, again, we’re not talking about even the flu, We’re talking about something that is not, statistically dangerous for children. But yet people still want to get your children vaccinated, which is crazy.”
      • if you get vaccinnated after an infection, there is a greater risk of side effects
        • https://d12t4t5x3vyizu.cloudfront.net/nehls.house.gov/uploads/2022/01/JRE-Rogan-Malone-Transcript.pdf
          • JR: so either way there are many many many studies that point to the fact that natural immunity is superior
          • RM: absolutely
          • JR: having recovered from COVID RM: Like over 140.
          • JR: and also multiple studies that show that people who have had COVID who get vaccinated after the fact have a higher risk I think it's between two and four-fold right
          • RM: you're on top of the data
          • JR: two and a four-fold risk of adverse side effects
          • RM: increased risk
          • JR: yeah increased risk so for you uh you did not know this when you got vaccinated
          • RM: no
      • Ivermectin cures COVID-19
      • The COVID-19 vaccinne alters your DNA


#15
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
Thanks for showing the full context. There is no way any intelligent person would interpret the first statement as advise about not getting vaccinated. 

The second he appears to be saying some studies indicate more symptoms if somebody gets the flu shot after COVID-19 . He doesn't even say that he necessarily believes the study results, and even if we project that he believes it, he isn't stating the conclusions of those studies are necessarily accurate. 

Nobody is listening to Joe Rogan for advise on how to handle covid-19.  They aren't listening to him about diet advise or exercise advice. I don't think this guy actually endorses the opinions of his guests either. He just puts on people he thinks would have good conversations. He has had I believe a wide variety of people with various opinions on every subject under the sun. 

There isn't a single person on this planet besides people that want to villainize Rogan, I guess for having guests they don't like on like Edward Snowden, Bernie Sanders and Alex Jones . I mean nobody should be interpreting that as advice not to vaccinate. If they do think it is advice, I don't know why they would take health care advice from some random comedian and reality show host. 
#16
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
It doesn't look like he said ivermectin cures COVID either. I just read that article. In fact that is generally just a straw man of people who decided to take very mild doses of ivermectin in general as a preventative measure, not even to stop COVID but as a way that they thought may help give them lesser symptoms if they did catch it. 

Everybody who supported ivermectin was basically saying. Take it in a responsible manner and maybe it will reduce your symptoms if you catch the disease as some studies seem to indicate. Nobody at all said it was a cure for Covid or a replacement for vaccinations
#17
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON

ROGAN: But yet people still want to get your children vaccinated, which is crazy.”
WYLTED: There is no way any intelligent person would interpret the first statement as advise about not getting vaccinated. 

ORO:  I think you should give up tryng to figure out how intelligent people think.

ROGAN: there are many many many studies that point to the fact that natural immunity is superior
WYLTED: he appears to be saying some studies indicate more symptoms if somebody gets the flu shot after COVID-19

ORO:  You appear to need glasses

Nobody is listening to Joe Rogan for advise on how to handle covid-19.  They aren't listening to him about diet advise or exercise advice.

ORO:  I guess that why TIME magazine just named Rogan one of the 100 most influential people in the world right now. 

I don't know why they would take health care advice from some random comedian and reality show host. 
exactly but it is clear that you do because Rogan confirms your fucked up anti-sci biases.


#18
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
That's democracy for ya. People be straying left n' right doing crazy n' loony stuff, groaning after what they'd voted for goes mad; but when you take away their voting liberties, they go even madder. That's democracy.
#19
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,056
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
But yet people still want to get your children vaccinated, which is crazy
That position is supported much stronger with today's science than when he first said that.
#20
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
It doesn't look like he said ivermectin cures COVID either.
  • False.
  • Rogan had many guests on stating ivermectin cures cancer and devoted whole shows to his conspiracy theory that the Trump adminstration was suppressing ivermecting as a cure because it was a cheap (it wasn't) and plentiful (it wasn't) cure for COVID in order to develop and sell a vaccinne.
    • Rogan was so famous for saying this that newspapers could just run headlines like:
      • EuroNews: Ivermectin, the 'COVID cure' pushed by Joe Rogan, has 'no significant effects' on the virus
      • Forbes: Study finds ivermectin, the horse drug Joe Rogan championed as a COVID treatment, does nothing to cure the virus
      • Business Insider: Joe Rogan's COVID-19 recovery shows how much the right has bought into the widely discredited horse dewormer cure
    • WEINSTEIN: "Ivermectin alone, if properly utilized, is capable of driving this pathogen to extinction
    • ROGAN:  " I keep coming back to these emergency use authorizations, which have a provision in them, they cannot grant an emergency use authorization. If there is an existing treatment that is safe and effective, right? The vaccines would not have been authorized, if ivermectin was understood to be what it is. And that, I have the sense, is the key thing that explains everything else. Somehow, those EUAs and the immune, uh, the, uh, liability waivers that these companies have been granted mean that this is all the more profitable if they can silence a discussion about a cheap, effective competitor that is safe that already exists. And so, in some sense, they started with the conclusion. Ivermectin doesn't exist. It does not effectively treat this disease. And anybody who says otherwise is spreading so-called medical misinformation when, in fact, what they're spreading is information, right? So, bunk is debunk. Information is misinformation. It's all on its head.  We're through the looking glass."
    • ROGAN: Bret, can we say, just stop for a second and call attention to the absurdity of what that article just described. You're talking about they're committing $3.2 billion to develop a better Ivermectin. We already have Ivermectin, it is already a profoundly effective antiviral. It is cheap, widely available, could be produced in mass quantities and delivered to the masses and population, yet our government, in the middle of a pandemic, is giving $3.2 billion to the pharmaceutical industry in a program to develop a new oral antiviral pill.
    • ROGAN: This sounds like a gigantic Ivermectin infomercial sponsored by Ivermectin.....But it is- it's-it's so funny, this is one of the best examples of something that is almost too good to be true but turns out actually to be true.

people who decided to take very mild doses of ivermectin in general as a preventative measure, not even to stop COVID but as a way that they thought may help give them lesser symptoms if they did catch it. 
  • False.  Most people took the horse-sized dosage even though that was hundreds of times more potent than the human dosage because you could buy the horse pill online and the human dosage required a prescription.
  • Joe Rogan deliberately took the horse-sized megadose and then went online in 48 hours claiming to test negative for COVID.
Everybody who supported ivermectin was basically saying. Take it in a responsible manner and maybe it will reduce your symptoms if you catch the disease as some studies seem to indicate.
  • Total lie.  Most people (almost entirely the ultra-gullible right wing people) who supported ivermectin said it was a Dr. Fauci coverup and megadosed it as a cure for COVID because liars like Rogan told them to and the right wing lives to drink the kool-aid of dear leader.  All the studies that showed any benefit were too small, to reckless in methodology, not peer-reviewed, not published.  Rogan pushed those studies hard.  When the good science (which always takes more time) came out, the science definitely showed that taking any dosage of Ivermectin as a cure or prophylaxis for COVID did far more harm than good and was never ever an acceptable prescription for COVID under any circumstance.  We know Aaron Rodgers foolishly followed Rogan's recommended course of treatment when Rogers contracted COVID because Rogers said as much.  But COVID rarely does much harm to professional athletes.  Hard to estimate how many people Rogan killed by hard selling fake medicine on his show but let's assume thousands, at least. 

Nobody at all said it was a cure for Covid or a replacement for vaccinations
  • Pure fucking evil lie.  Rogan brought on many doctors and scientist who claimed exactly that and aggressively promoted those fake claims.