There is no compromising with MAGA Republicans. They are today’s slave holders

Author: IwantRooseveltagain

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#91
Lemming
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Maybe you should have been more precise with your request,
You said,
"Name anther election in which Russia tried to help a specific candidate."

You didn't specify within the last 69 years, or specify that they had to meet with their campaign manager.

Alright then,
"1984 election (by Soviet Union)[edit]
When Ronald Reagan was running for reelection as president, the Soviet Union opposed his candidacy and took active measures against it.[151] Soviet intelligence reportedly attempted to infiltrate both the Republican National Committee and Democratic National Committee.[151]"

I'm not bothering to find out if the Russians met with a campaign manager in 1984 though.
#92
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@Lemming
Not that I'm saying it's not something to be leery of,
But so many on the Left act as though a number of recent events are unheard of, or of Earth shattering importance.
Of course they aren't unheard of, but never before have they been so blatent and intense. 

And they are of Earth shattering importance, our country is under attack from an enemy that is inside the wire.   It's all important.
#93
Lemming
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@Sidewalker
To me influence and propaganda looks like a 'constant in nations interactions,

This week, the Stanford Internet Observatory and social media analysis firm Graphika detailed a five-year operation that was pushing pro-Western narratives. (The research follows Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as they remove a series of accounts from their platforms for “coordinated inauthentic behavior.”)
The propaganda accounts used memes, fake news websites, online petitions, and various hashtags in an attempt to push pro-Western views and were linked to both overt and covert influence operations. The accounts, some of which appear to use AI-generated profile pictures, targeted internet users in Russia, China, and Iran, among other countries. The researchers say the accounts “heavily criticized” Russia following its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February and also “promoted anti-extremism messaging.” Twitter said the activity it saw is likely to have originated in the US and the UK, while Meta said it was the US.

What makes the intensity so great, so blatant, so Earth shattering, from your point of view?
(Not meant as a sarcastic question, I'm honestly looking for information about your view)
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#94
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Lemming
your articles say the influence originated in the US, not by the US, as in the US government. People are free to say and do what they want, but when a government is behind the effort then it’s an attack.

And FYI, Russia deserves to be criticized for their invasion of Ukraine. People and governments around the world should criticize Russia for their aggression.

#95
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@IwantRooseveltagain
So, you're claiming that propaganda is exactly the same as declaring an official war?
#96
Sidewalker
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@Lemming
To me influence and propaganda looks like a 'constant in nations interactions,
Sure it's something I count as a Con in Trump,
But it doesn't make him a traitor to be hanged, in my book.
I guess I see his as much more damaging to our country than you do, my visceral reaction to him is as a traitor to be hanged.  Admittedly, I'm struggling to be objective about it, but I'm experiencing an all out crisis.
This week, the Stanford Internet Observatory and social media analysis firm Graphika detailed a five-year operation that was pushing pro-Western narratives. (The research follows Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as they remove a series of accounts from their platforms for “coordinated inauthentic behavior.”)
The propaganda accounts used memes, fake news websites, online petitions, and various hashtags in an attempt to push pro-Western views and were linked to both overt and covert influence operations. The accounts, some of which appear to use AI-generated profile pictures, targeted internet users in Russia, China, and Iran, among other countries. The researchers say the accounts “heavily criticized” Russia following its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February and also “promoted anti-extremism messaging.” Twitter said the activity it saw is likely to have originated in the US and the UK, while Meta said it was the US.

What makes the intensity so great, so blatant, so Earth shattering, from your point of view?
Well, I'm old as dirt, so I've seen a lot, and this just looks and feels different, it is comparatively an explosion of our worst tendencies, unhidden, unashamed, it's like McCarthyism on steriods.  I've seen what it's doing to my country, and it's the worst damage I ever saw.

You talked about how so many on the "left" see it differently, and that is me, but understand I'm new to the left, I was a lifelong and devout Republican my whole life, so I was seeing it through Republican eyes, I finally left the party when George Will left, and for the same reasons.   The Republican party made a Faustian deal with Trump, I never thought the party could be so weak to cowtow to a hatemongering demogogue like him.  The level of discourse, the acceptance of bigotry and violence, the sheer meaness and hatred, is unprecedented in my lifetime, and I got to see the Cival Rights conflict in person.   

I'm not sure if I can provide links or stats or anything like that, but I can tell you that this last decade is coming at me in a much more intense and Earth shattering way, I've seen some shit before, but this time it feels like I'm trapped in Fellini movie.  This isn't the way things are supposed to be, and we just can't let it happen.  

(Not meant as a sarcastic question, I'm honestly looking for information about your view)
Of that I'm sure, I think you are the most honest poster here, you tend to be all over the place, I rarely agree with you, and half the time I'm not all that sure what you are even saying, but nevertheless, I always enjoy reading your posts.  
#97
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@Sidewalker
I 'did have
"Sure it's something I count as a Con in Trump,
But it doesn't make him a traitor to be hanged, in my book."
In my #93 post, but edited my post shortly after.

I 'do think that Trump has had a negative effect on the country.

A coworker of mine who voted for him, didn't like him much, but hoped he would shake up the establishment, lead to something better during or after him, but more in 'spite of Trump, than Trump causing something posative,
Bit like a forest fire I suppose, causing regrowth after clearing out the forest,
Or a third force entering a battle, which causes the two earlier feuding factions to unite against it.

I expected the Republican party to reject Trump myself, I was surprised when they didn't,
I'm unsure if they're intimidated by Trumps popularity, or whether they agree with some of his political stances,
Though the intimidated by popularity seems more likely to me,
And a great pity if so, as I think the Republicans could have been great and admirable, if they had not taken in with Trump.

#98
Sidewalker
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@Lemming
I 'did have
"Sure it's something I count as a Con in Trump,
But it doesn't make him a traitor to be hanged, in my book."
In my #93 post, but edited my post shortly after.

I 'do think that Trump has had a negative effect on the country.

A coworker of mine who voted for him, didn't like him much, but hoped he would shake up the establishment, lead to something better during or after him, but more in 'spite of Trump, than Trump causing something posative,
Bit like a forest fire I suppose, causing regrowth after clearing out the forest.
That's the problem with that election, nobody voted for anybody all the votes were against someone.  They gave me the last two people on the planet I'd vote for so I voted Libertarian.  Every single Trump supporter I knew said I voted for Hillary, every Clinton supporter said I voted for Trump, that was the mentality in that election, you had to have animosity in common to be a side, I'm not sure anybody stands for anything anymore, the positions are nothing but oppositions.

I expected the Republican party to reject Trump myself, I was surprised when they didn't,
I'm unsure if they're intimidated by Trumps popularity, or whether they agree with some of his political stances,
Though the intimidated by popularity seems more likely to me,
And a great pity if so, as I think the Republicans could have been great and admirable, if they had not taken in with Trump.
I also see it all as deeply racially motivated, somehow it became all about white identity politics, a lot of what is happening is motivated by fear of losing our priviledge, sure didn't see that coming.  A couple people tried to tell me the Republican party was racist back when I was John McCain's biggest fan and I landed on them with both feet, how dare you, this is the party of Lincoln Damn it, but after I saw the way they reacted to Obama's win, I started to believe it. I really think the core of the Faustian deal Trump made with the party was that he showed them they can win if they play to the white supremacists in this country, getting those guys in the game gave the Republicans the advantage, I just can't believe anybody fell for it, and yet, I think everybody fell for it.  I believe thier influence is overrepresented in the country now. 

I can only relate the experience, and I hate to admit it, but during this process I went from feeling ashamed of being a Republican, to ashamed to be an American, to ashamed to be white.  Trump has brought out the worst in us, and i for one, am completely alienated.
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#99
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Lemming
Alright then,
"1984 election (by Soviet Union)[edit]
When Ronald Reagan was running for reelection as president, the Soviet Union opposed his candidacy and took active measures against it.[151] Soviet intelligence reportedly attempted to infiltrate both the Republican National Committee and Democratic National Committee.[151]"
 - Foreign electoral intervention - Wikipedia I'm not bothering to find out if the Russians met with a campaign manager in 1984 though.
None of your links show there was an attempt by Russia to influence the 84 election. You’re just blowing smoke.

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#100
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Lemming
So, you're claiming that propaganda is exactly the same as declaring an official war?
No, not at all. That is very poor reading comprehension.

The point I made that apparently went over your head is: Ordinary American citizens criticizing Russia about Ukraine on social media is very different than the U.S. government trying to influence a Russian election by using social media, sending money to opposition candidates, hacking emails of opposition candidates etc… which is exactly what Russia did in the 2016 election 

#101
Lemming
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@IwantRooseveltagain
@Sidewalker
Well, polarization 'does prove to be an enemy in modern politics, it seems,
Though I'm not sure that it's the people's 'politics, so much as people of such different views being so close to each other,
The Left and Right in general, nowadays, I mean.

No, then again as I think on it,
There's more conspiracy theories on the Right and active nuts, than I care for,
Not that there aren't any on the Left,
. . .
I really do think 'some of the Right's craziness, came from the Lefts craziness,
And of course when people encounter opposition to their values, beliefs, actions, they often become more entrenched.
. . .
Hm, no, 'most of all I blame Trump, who in a position of power has 'encouraged division, as the spark, 'moreso than the push that elected him.

. . .

Still, McCain wasn't that long ago, who was not a bad fellow,

. . .
. . .
Hm, about race you say?

I 'do remember seeing Ferguson on the news, 2014,
When people right or wrong 'Identify themselves as a group, it makes others aware of them as The Other, I'd suggest,
Doesn't matter if race or politics,
Which isn't 'always bad, groups of different people can get along, all sorts of identifiable groups,

I remember Charlottesville, about a statue of Lee wasn't it?
Not that I cared much myself, communities can do what they want with their communities, though I might disagree, eh, their choice.
But, again,
Makes people aware of the other, suggests 'truth to the replacement theory,

BLM, which people disagree on how bad or good it was,
Certainly Trump handled it 'terribly.

Hm, probably race 'does hold some water as a reason for some people,
Though myself race isn't my political disagreement so much with the Left.

One only has to read a smidgeon of history, to see what countries are,
That people think America and many other nations don't assassinate, bribe, and plot against other nations all the time, baffles me.

"On April 12, 1982, Yuri Andropov, the chairman of the K.G.B., ordered foreign-intelligence operatives to carry out “active measures”—aktivniye meropriyatiya—against the reëlection campaign of President Ronald Reagan."

"when a government is behind the effort then it’s an attack." - IwantRooseveltagain
Pearl 'Harbor was an attack.

I think I read fine, maybe you need to write better.
#102
cristo71
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Name anther election in which Russia tried to help a specific candidate. 
Can’t say for sure if it’s intentional or not, but you are shifting the goalposts. I’m talking about the sowing of chaos in the US and foreign interference in US elections. You turn that into further examples of Russia actively trying to help a specific candidate, as opposed to a nation meddling in US elections.

To detail where I’m coming from, take US intervention in foreign elections as a starting point. Simply put, the US does it. Opposing Mossedegh in Iran is the first example which comes to mind. Add in Snowden’s leak where the extent of nations interfering in the business of other nations is put out in the open. Add in the Mueller Report findings. From there, it is not a big stretch that foreign election interference happens, and that 2016 was not an isolated incident.

I must thank Lemming for doing a lot of legwork already and for enduring your responses. Here’s the first thing I found via a quick search:



#103
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@cristo71
I would never have pegged Roose as a passionate nationalist worried about foreign influence. That's pretty brave to endure baseless Nazi slurs for holding dear such a position.
#104
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@Greyparrot
If he were that concerned about foreign influence, he wouldn’t have such a narrow definition for it— “Russia helping a specific candidate.”
#105
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@cristo71
Oh ok, so he is a Nationalist Nazi only when Trump and Russia is involved. That doesn't sound very principled.
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#106
IwantRooseveltagain
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@cristo71
Can’t say for sure if it’s intentional or not, but you are shifting the goalposts. 
This has always been the issue with Russia in 2016. They started out with simple meddling and trying to undermine the credibility of the west. Then they saw what a gold mine they had with Trump who would help them undermine democracy and NATO and decided to try to specifically help Trump get elected. This was unprecedented. On top of that, with Trump they had a candidate who welcomed the help and even coordinated with the Russians .

#107
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Which is the greater threat to the integrity of our elections:

A. Foreign interference 
B. Alex Jones et al
C. Both A&B are essentially equal threats

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#108
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@cristo71
You left out 

An ex-President Spreading lies about fraudulent or rigged elections while politicians from the same party either repeat those lies or remain silent.
#109
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An ex-President Spreading lies about fraudulent or rigged elections while politicians from the same party either repeat those lies or remain silent.
You must be talking About Jimmy Carter then.
#110
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@cristo71
Even after I pointed it out, you still speak as if foreign interference began and concluded in 2016.
No, I'm not. If you actually read the conversation you decided to chime in on, this is about the false equivalence between Clinton and her supporters claiming Trump was an illegitimate president vs Trump and the MAGA right claiming the 2020 election was stolen. I'm not defending the "illegitimate president" position, just pointing out that it's not absurd the way the stolen election claims are.

This really is an absurd conversation to have, it used to be beyond obvious to everyone. And you can have your own opinions about it all you want, but you cannot pretend that all of the same people on TV pretending there's nothing wrong with it now didn't recognize this as an issue before Trump.
I don’t really know what “it” is in this entire paragraph.
"It" is the idea that a foreign advasary hacking US intuitions and spreading intentionally false stories in order to influence a US election should be regarded as anything other than an attack on our country, no matter who stands to benefit.

Well dang, the DOJ really should launch an investigation into such an unwholesome relationship.
It came from the Mueller report genius;

"[The] investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts.”

Right; things are muuuch better now…
Yes, they are. Just a few days ago it was revealed in the Bob Woodward recordings that Trump claimed to have a plan to fight the pandemic but decided he wouldn't tell anyone yet because it was too far out from the election and no one would remember what he did if it came out too soon.

In other words, he decided that it was ok for hundreds of thousands of Americans to die so he could improve his chances of winning reelection.

So did this make headlines across the country or command Congressional investigations? No. It was barely reported on, because no one cares. This isn't news, this is Trump being Trump. Everyone knows this is the kind of president and person Trump was and is.

If Biden was caught on tape saying anything remotely like this it would be played on Fox news every day for the next 5 years and you know it. Hell, they still talk about Benghazi where the same thing was alleged of Clinton and Obama despite having no evidence of it and it resulting in four american deaths (not hundreds of thousands).

You cannot sit here with a straight face and pretend these two men remotely reassemble each other when it comes to concern for their country vs concern for themselves.
#111
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@Double_R
If Biden was caught on tape saying anything remotely like this it would be played on Fox news every day for the next 5 years...
Why do you still  care about Fox news? Most people on the right don't even watch Fox news...

In fact, people on the left rely on broadcast scripted news like MSNBC and Fox far more often then people on the right at a rate of 55% to 35% 


23% of people on the right use external conservative media sites whereas only 7% of people on the left use leftist external media sites.

Fox is absolutely irrelevant knowing MSNBC has far more influence over the left than Fox has on the right.
Me personally, I haven't watched Fox news in 4 years ever since Fox banned talk about Soros's foreign meddling in US elections.
#112
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@Double_R
How do you feel about the corporate takeover of leftist echochamber platforms such as Twitter and CNN?
Where do you think Leftists will go for their news now?
#113
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@IwantRooseveltagain
And you left out an answer to an honest question.
#114
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@Double_R
No, I'm not. If you actually read the conversation you decided to chime in on, this is about the false equivalence between Clinton and her supporters claiming Trump was an illegitimate president vs Trump and the MAGA right claiming the 2020 election was stolen. I'm not defending the "illegitimate president" position, just pointing out that it's not absurd the way the stolen election claims are.
I merely supplied analysis from a source I thought you might respect, without daring to supply any analysis of my own. Silly me— you are clinically unable to take in opposing facts and analysis no matter what the source. Honestly, because your outright dismissals and weaselly rationalizations are to be expected, I “decided to chime in” for the benefit of others who might be reading, so it isn’t a complete waste.

Yet you wonder why your posts garner mainly low effort, troll responses. Perhaps the results of the midterm elections will snap you out of it, but I’m not holding my breath. Again, hope springs eternal…

It came from the Mueller report genius;
As suspected, no sense of humor. Even worse, no sarcasm detector…

Yes, they are. Just a few days ago it was revealed in the Bob Woodward recordings that Trump claimed to have a plan to fight the pandemic but decided he wouldn't tell anyone yet because it was too far out from the election and no one would remember what he did if it came out too soon.

In other words, he decided that it was ok for hundreds of thousands of Americans to die so he could improve his chances of winning reelection.

So did this make headlines across the country or command Congressional investigations? No. It was barely reported on, because no one cares. This isn't news, this is Trump being Trump. Everyone knows this is the kind of president and person Trump was and is.

If Biden was caught on tape saying anything remotely like this it would be played on Fox news every day for the next 5 years and you know it. Hell, they still talk about Benghazi where the same thing was alleged of Clinton and Obama despite having no evidence of it and it resulting in four american deaths (not hundreds of thousands).

You cannot sit here with a straight face and pretend these two men remotely reassemble each other when it comes to concern for their country vs concern for themselves.
“That was four days ago, five days ago.”

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#115
IwantRooseveltagain
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@cristo71
And you left out an answer to an honest question.
You asked what was more detrimental, Russian meddling or misinformation like we get from Alex Jones, FOX News, OAN, The Gateway Pundit, etc…

It is an honest quest and the answer is impossible to determine except in hindsight when our country implodes. But Trump is definitely the biggest reason we are a backsliding democracy which did not have a peaceful transfer of power in 2021 for the first time in our nation’s history.

#116
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@cristo71
Lol, to some people, Trump is the new "42"
#117
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@cristo71
A. Foreign interference 
B. Alex Jones et al
C. Both A&B are essentially equal threats

I'll take a shot and answer this:

A: Because it is A: that can gain the power to define B:

#118
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 which did not have a peaceful transfer of power in 2021 for the first time in our nation’s history.

Jefferson Davis: "Am I a joke to you?"

#119
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Sigh, the hyperbolic junk analysis is in no short supply here.
#120
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Why do you still  care about Fox news? Most people on the right don't even watch Fox news...
Last I checked, Fox news still has the highest ratings of any news network. If that has changed I would find that interesting, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just said.

Try reading my post again, replace "Fox News" with whatever prominent right wing news source you like. Then feel free to respond to the point.