Moral ambiguity vs intense fanaticism

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#1
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Do you believe morally ambiguous individuals are more responsible for their actions than those driven by an intense fanaticism or zealotry? 

I know it might differ depending on the situation, however let's just look at the Holocaust. 

You have individuals who play an essential part in the genocidal process, and may send thousands of innocent people off to their deaths, yet they might save a few children or somebody they used to know. Then you have individuals who are driven by this intense anti-semitic ideology who don't stop to consider their actions, who wouldn't spare anybody, who genuinely believes they are doing the right thing. 

Who would be more responsible for their OWN actions? 

I guess you could say that morally enigmatic individuals would be because they usually have a full understanding of the ramifications of their actions, while fanatics tend to get caught up in their own single-mindedness to fully comprehend their situation. 

However it is also the fanatics own fault for allowing themselves to succumb to this single-mindedness. However I am unsure if this is even related. 

Would really appreciate some advice and opinions on this topic. 
#2
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@bibliobibulimaniac
Do you believe morally ambiguous individuals are more responsible for their actions than those driven by an intense fanaticism or zealotry? 

I know it might differ depending on the situation, however let's just look at the Holocaust. 

You have individuals who play an essential part in the genocidal process, and may send thousands of innocent people off to their deaths, yet they might save a few children or somebody they used to know. Then you have individuals who are driven by this intense anti-semitic ideology who don't stop to consider their actions, who wouldn't spare anybody, who genuinely believes they are doing the right thing. 

Who would be more responsible for their OWN actions? 

I guess you could say that morally enigmatic individuals would be because they usually have a full understanding of the ramifications of their actions, while fanatics tend to get caught up in their own single-mindedness to fully comprehend their situation. 

However it is also the fanatics own fault for allowing themselves to succumb to this single-mindedness. However I am unsure if this is even related. 

Would really appreciate some advice and opinions on this topic. 
Fanatics are capable of taking it to the extreme. Morally driven individuals are a little more circumspect.

#3
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@bibliobibulimaniac
Somehow the word 'responsible confuses me in this thread,
I'm sure it's mostly me though.

Perhaps a more fanatic individual, is more willing to take 'on responsibility,
More willing to keep to it,
Have it in their thoughts and considerations.

Perhaps a person 'not so fanatic,
Is able to consider their responsibilities more objectively,
As they may not 'care so much about said responsibilities, they can see them clearer,
People at times ignore faults in items that they love, seeing only what they love in said item.

A fanatic individual might 'only be willing to be responsible to the item of their fanaticism,
But reject responsibility of that which they are not fanatic about.


#4
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@Lemming
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Somehow the word 'responsible confuses me in this thread,
I'm sure it's mostly me though.
Are you waiting for someone to confirm it’s mostly you?

#5
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@Shila
No, I'm waiting to see if bibliobibulimaniac is still around,
Then I might be able to satisfy my curiosity of what they want out of this thread, why they created it,

I am curious of peoples reasons, motivations, at times.
#6
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No, I'm waiting to see if bibliobibulimaniac is still around,
Then I might be able to satisfy my curiosity of what they want out of this thread, why they created it,

I am curious of peoples reasons, motivations, at times.
I think he took his best shot at you. Wonder why? He only posted once and it was directed at you.

#7
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@Shila
My suspicion that you are a bot just increased to 90%, with post #6,
Then down to 20%, as I reconsider past posts of yours, as well as the nature of people to be trolls sometimes.
#8
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My suspicion that you are a bot just increased to 90%, with post #6,
Then down to 20%, as I reconsider past posts of yours, as well as the nature of people to be trolls.
Let us know your troll list.

#9
Lemming
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@Shila
None come to mind,
Not something I think on 'too often.
#10
Shila
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My suspicion that you are a bot just increased to 90%, with post #6,
Then down to 20%, as I reconsider past posts of yours, as well as the nature of people to be trolls.
Let us know your troll list.


--> @Shila
None come to mind,
Not something I think on 'too often.
So from 90% to 20% down to 0.

#11
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@Shila
No, I still 20% suspect you are a bot.
#12
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Imagine if someone was immoral 13 % and like,   73 % moral. 

Can one be a fanatic of something like " good " orrrrrr  can one get addicted to something good. .

Imagine being "hell bent"  on like helping someone. 
(A help person extremist) 
Can one?   Perhaps.  Yes no . 
Well no.
But. 
But yes. 
No hey. 


Yes. 

Thus bringing us to . 
Can you like catch or get a  " good " decease. ?



#13
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Oh .
Did i just type that out loud? 

Ambiguity. 

Say it with me. 

Am big you a tee.
Ambiguity 

What a silly sounding and extremely silly looking word AMBIGUITY  is. 
It fucks with my head a little.  

Im going to pass. 



Pass
#14
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The malaria therapy (or malaria inoculation,[1] and sometimes malariotherapy[2]) is a medical procedure of treating diseases using artificial injection of malaria parasites.[3] It is a type of pyrotherapy (or pyretotherapy) by which high fever is induced to stop or eliminate symptoms of certain diseases. In malaria therapy, malarial parasites (Plasmodium) are specifically used to cause fever, and an elevated body temperature reduces the symptoms of or cure the diseases. As the primary disease is treated, the malaria is then cured using antimalarial drugs.[4] The method was developed by Austrian physician Julius Wagner-Jauregg in 1917 for the treatment of neurosyphilis for which he received the 1927 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.[5]


#15
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@Lemming
Fucking great reading material Lemm.  Cheers old pal. 
It is a area that interests me.  I'll read that soon. 
Nice. 
#16
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@Deb-8-a-bull
"Julius Wagner-Jauregg (7 March 1857 – 27 September 1940) was an Austrian physician, who won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1927, and is the first psychiatrist to have done so. His Nobel award was "for his discovery of the therapeutic value of malaria inoculation in the treatment of dementia paralytica".[1]"
Julius Wagner-Jauregg - Wikipedia

Physicians heal thyselves.

Towards his last days Wagner-Jauregg was influenced by Hitler's German nationalism, and became an anti-Semite[7] and sympathizer of Nazism.[8] Documentary evidence indicates that he supported the Nazi party shortly after the invasion of Austria in 1938 by Germany.[9][10][11][12] However, a denazification commission in Austria found that his application for NSDAP membership had been refused "...on grounds of race", as his first wife Balbine Frumkin was Jewish.[13]
Wagner-Jauregg advocated a racial hygiene ideology called eugenics,[13] influencing students such as Alexander Pilcz, who went on to author a standard handbook on racial psychiatry critical of Jews for being prone to mental illness.[14]
He was also an advocate of forced sterilization of the mentally ill and criminal,[11] having endorsed the concept in 1935 while a member of the Austrian Anthropological Society.[15]

He was President of the Austrian League for Racial Regeneration and Heredity, which advocated sterilization for those of inferior genetics.[16]


#17
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@bibliobibulimaniac
I don't really see a difference. Whether they have  managed to convince themselves that their wrongdoings are actually good, or whether they have essentially given up on worrying about doing good, both groups gave up on bringing actual good to the world and are just doing what allows them feel good about themselves.
#18
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Back to the thing on bots 

Creating / programming  Moral bots and or immoral bots. 

" making  Overly moral bots." Is moral as.  


#19
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Is making bots moral ? 
Arrrrrrrrrr.    Moral bots.    
#20
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Fanatic bots. 
Overly zelous bots. 
Exteam bot. 

Bots programed to become  Extremist bots. 
#21
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Deeply religious  bots. 
#22
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@Double_R
I'd suppose mobs blame themselves less,
Though I agree with you on people still being responsible,
People can get caught up in the heat of a moment,

Crimes of passion,
At times are forgiven by people,
As said individual or group lost control of themselves,

As compared to a person who stays in cold command of themself,
And with self control acts.
#23
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Nude picture requesting bots. 

Hold the fuk on.  
A ever immorol (  Groming bots. ) illegal doing  bots. 
#24
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Creating bots that you can say are effected negatively  with  AI =  ruthless bots . 
 But not on purpose.  


Im making Ruth Bots that you are not responsible for. 
Ruthless bots. 


Buttttttt . I can picture all the bots ending up just asking females for naked pics. 
Thats horrible. 
MEGA IMMORAL BOTS.  
Topic's author
#25
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@Lemming
I understand it's a confusing question, and that is why I have brought it on here. 

I have a school assignment which is based around evaluating who was responsible for the Holocaust. I wanted to take a moral approach and analyse that area, and it lead me to that question. 

While I know it's confusing I have to tie it around responsibility as that is the assignment focus. 
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#26
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@Double_R
Maybe the morally enigmatic individuals are not so focused on doing what feels good. 

The zealots are so immersed in their own realities, and they completely feel as if they are doing the right thing despite their actions being ethical wrong.

In comparison to this, those with a slightly better moral compass tend to be able to correctly differentiate between wrong and right, and usually act unethically while knowing that what they are doing is wrong. 

I wouldn't say that both groups have given up on considering what is right or wrong. 




#27
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@bibliobibulimaniac
--> @Double_R
Maybe the morally enigmatic individuals are not so focused on doing what feels good. 

The zealots are so immersed in their own realities, and they completely feel as if they are doing the right thing despite their actions being ethical wrong.

In comparison to this, those with a slightly better moral compass tend to be able to correctly differentiate between wrong and right, and usually act unethically while knowing that what they are doing is wrong. 

I wouldn't say that both groups have given up on considering what is right or wrong. 
Both groups just don’t know what is right or wrong. 

#28
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@bibliobibulimaniac
Regardless if Zealous or Ambiguous,
Interaction was had,
Choices made,
What can one expect a person to have done, but what they did?
To have done different they'd need be a different person,
People responsible for their actions and inactions as a cog is responsible for turning?
Even if one is directed or manipulated by another,
The bullet is responsible for a man's death,
The man who fired the gun is responsible for a man's death,
Is a person who values pleasure to blame for their diabetes?
People in positions of power, we expect to result in greater influence, they are greater cogs,
A person may not be 'fit for their position, but they are in it nonetheless, responsible, a point of large interaction.

Sorry, I have a hard time sorting out my thoughts,
Have any new thoughts of your own on the subject?

Don't feel a need to read the below,
Just don't want to delete my thoughts.

Drummer Hoff, Pvt Pyle, Guard dog, Rabid dog, Hess, Spasm, Control, Intent, Understand, Cog, Laws of Gravity, Beating a cog can change it's shape, Beating a cog in anger, Beating a human can change their shape, beating a human can change other human's shapes, why beat a cog in anger, why beat a human in anger, beating a cog will not change other cogs shapes, Retribution, To the best of your abilities, What happens if succeed, fail, To you, To task, Right time place person, Brain tumor, Psych self improvement and agency, desire for or not revenge an evolutionary trait, We are avatars of our own nature and experiences, If a sliver causes my pain burning the tree that gave it will not remove my pain, Value X more than X leads to X, Death Larsen, Being part of existence our insides are part of nature and nurture, don't watch your legs centipede, Can a choice be made for you, Problem of sets, But to not be my ego screams in defiance, How can anything be valued without an observer, Expected ability of individual, No one there but pieces, Atheism killed meaning by it's method, Sliver came from bark bark from tree Hitler was a piece of bark, What is justice fairness, Chance inside and out occurs that expected outcomes do not result, Psychology depends on will of individual to change except for AA where drinker accepts their weak will or high dependence has left them unable to choose to quit, We identify with and are our parts, Maybe word moral confuses me, S**t happens, Manson, Djinni, Guilt vs Pain, Milgram Experiment, Stanford Prison Experiment, Patty Hearst Stockholm Syndrome, People always have a choice,
#29
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@Lemming
Just don't want to delete my thoughts.

Drummer Hoff, Pvt Pyle, Guard dog, Rabid dog, Hess, Spasm, Control, Intent, Understand, Cog, Laws of Gravity, Beating a cog can change it's shape, Beating a cog in anger, Beating a human can change their shape, beating a human can change other human's shapes, why beat a cog in anger, why beat a human in anger, beating a cog will not change other cogs shapes, Retribution, To the best of your abilities, What happens if succeed, fail, To you, To task, Right time place person, Brain tumor, Psych self improvement and agency, desire for or not revenge an evolutionary trait, We are avatars of our own nature and experiences, If a sliver causes my pain burning the tree that gave it will not remove my pain, Value X more than X leads to X, Death Larsen, Being part of existence our insides are part of nature and nurture, don't watch your legs centipede, Can a choice be made for you, Problem of sets, But to not be my ego screams in defiance, How can anything be valued without an observer, Expected ability of individual, No one there but pieces, Atheism killed meaning by it's method, Sliver came from bark bark from tree Hitler was a piece of bark, What is justice fairness, Chance inside and out occurs that expected outcomes do not result, Psychology depends on will of individual to change except for AA where drinker accepts their weak will or high dependence has left them unable to choose to quit, We identify with and are our parts, Maybe word moral confuses me, S**t happens, Manson, Djinni, Guilt vs Pain, Milgram Experiment, Stanford Prison Experiment, Patty Hearst Stockholm Syndrome, People always have a choice,
Save these thoughts. There are social media textual analyzers that might help you uncover your psychological profile and what makes you in your own words: “Shallow education. A bit rambly. A bit lacking in coherence at times. Generally meh. I'm usually a rather friendly and polite person I'd say, although I do have lapses on occasion.”
I'm from Oregon.

#30
RationalMadman
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To me, there isn't much difference.

The only difference lies in how widespread their ideology can become and the types of people who will buy into it.