Most people dont know how badly the pedophiles are treated in prison

Author: Best.Korea

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Elliott
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This is your definition.

Such definition is inappropriate, because it fails to take into account consent based on limited knowledge.

It also fails to determine who decides what amount of knowledge is enough for consent.

For example, child knows that certain sexual activities bring pleasure. Child consents to them because child wants pleasure. What more knowledge does child need? 

The fact that you try to equalize "childs consent based on childs current knowledge" to "no consent" so that you could violate childs consent and make decisions about childs own body, and then accuse others of doing what you do, is nonsense.

Childs will is consisted of childs goals. Only knowledge relevant to these goals is relevant for consent.
I will stick with my original premise, children are easily manipulated and if they are subject to coercive manipulation by an adult, for that adult’s own ends, then that child is not consenting.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
If you're going to give a subjective opinion you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say imply that disagreement "blatantly disingenuous".

"It's blatantly disingenuous that you are trying to define anchovies as delicious."
"Anchovies are disgusting"
"That is my own subjective opinion"

Subjectivism and debate don't mix. If you can't articulate a reason common to others then by definition you can't advance an argument.
Thank you for your advice, it has been most helpful and in future I shall avoid anchovies.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Greater consent is the one where individual has greater knowledge about an action related to his goals.

In cases where individual is consenting but is unaware of a great violation of his goals by such an action, only such consent can be treated as invalid.

Only in those cases, such partial consent can be violated to upheld greater consent.

However, this "violation of goals" does not happen during consensual sexual activities.
 
In fact, our society spends a lot of money to convince children that they are victims and that their goals have been violated.

This "convincing" is not voluntary. Children are forced to listen to it.

Since its impossible to make sense of such convincing, its hard to expect it resulting in something good.

Our society does a lot to punish sex and impose guilt and impose will onto others, but it seems that all it managed to do with that was to pollute the minds.

So in a way, we could say that the entire society lacks full knowledge about own goals.
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@Elliott
"I will stick with my original premise, children are easily manipulated and if they are subject to coercive manipulation by an adult, for that adult’s own ends, then that child is not consenting."

For adults own end? Children can desire sex for pleasure. So really, when they consent knowing they will get  such pleasure, it is a valid consent.
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"I will stick with my original premise, children are easily manipulated and if they are subject to coercive manipulation by an adult, for that adult’s own ends, then that child is not consenting."

For adults own end? Children can desire sex for pleasure. So really, when they consent knowing they will get  such pleasure, it is a valid consent.
As you continue to evade the main point regarding the fact that children are easily manipulated, I am wasting my time.
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@Elliott
"As you continue to evade the main point regarding the fact that children are easily manipulated, I am wasting my time."

That point is irrelevant to discussion, because it assumes children are always manipulated.

Are children being manipulated by society and by everyone then?
Polytheist-Witch
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Eating nothing but chocolate feels good but it's horrible for you. Rape is rape, children can't consent. Admitting to crimes is probably not wise.
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@Best.Korea
Greater consent is the one where individual has greater knowledge about an action related to his goals.

In cases where individual is consenting but is unaware of a great violation of his goals by such an action, only such consent can be treated as invalid.
Incomplete theory because it assumes that complete knowledge is inevitable (or even possible).

For instance if I buy a house at age 25, and that house has major problems; but neither I nor the home inspector, nor the sellers, nor the county inspectors knew of the problem I still consented.

If however the seller knew about the problem but choose not to volunteer the information, that is fraudulent.

My indication of agreement is the same in both cases. The difference is fraud. Fraud abuses consent, absolute level of awareness doesn't matter at all and cannot matter because no one can say that there is nothing left to be aware of. If I let children or non-humans stay in the house expecting nothing bad to happen, I have not violated their consent. If I do so knowing there is something wrong, but I cannot communicate it to the children or non-humans I still have no violated their consent because I have not impeded on their autonomous will which was incapable of accounting for the knowledge, however I have committed an immoral act by allowing them to come to harm.

Where knowledge is withheld or impossible to communicate the responsibility cannot be delegated. The responsibility does not evaporate.
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@Polytheist-Witch
"Eating nothing but chocolate feels good but it's horrible for you."

How does that relate to sexual activities?
We know that eating nothing but chocolate would cause you to die, which is probably something you dont want.

However, sexual activities dont cause you to die.

Children know that they will get pleasure from sexual activities. They consent to that to realize their goals.

So its not rape.

Also, rape involves penetration. Sexual activities dont have to involve penetration.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"Incomplete theory because it assumes that complete knowledge is inevitable (or even possible)."

Actually, it only says that ones consent can be violated only in cases where it uphelds ones greater consent.

Its purpose was to describe when is it allowed to violate ones consent.

So, violations of consent that dont serve such purpose are unjustified.

And of course, an effort to upheld consent needs to be made by entire society.
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@Best.Korea
That is a complete lie. There are plenty of people who have died, children, babies and women and men due to the trauma caused by a sexual assault to their body. There are people who have been killed so they did not talk about being sexually assaulted. There are people who have committed suicide due to the trauma of being sexually assaulted. Just because you feel your sexual assault is not violent or does not hurt the person that you're doing it to does not make it true. Again I would watch admitting to crimes on a forum.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Please dont equalize "sexual assault" to "non-violent consensual sexual activities".
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@Best.Korea
Sexual assault, non-consent sexual contact and rape are the exact same thing. People  like the sugarcoat shit. So a jury will go easier on someone at sentencing. Morally, ethically, physically, mentally, spiritually they all do the same amount of damage. Again I would really watch admitting to crimes on an open forum.
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@Polytheist-Witch
None of that is equal to consensual sexual activities with children.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
This is you confusing your unnatural desire with logic and morality, if you think you can justify it here and then act on it, then you weren't treated badly enough in prison.
I think you're confusing torture with logic and morality.

There is no connection between being raped in prison and being morally wrong.
No, I'm saying the crime of pedophilaa  is morally wrong,  the connection be that by acting on that impulse that he's trying to justify, is what puts you in prison.

His recommendation was don't go to prison, my recommendation was don't commit the crime so you don't go to prison.

Prison is supposed to be a deterrent, he had a very bad experience in prison, but nevertheless, he's still here justifying the crime, saying it should be OK.  But it's not OK, he needs to understand that or suffer the consequences.


Shila
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@Lemming
--> @Best.Korea
Children have plenty of rights in the UK, from what I read,

A right is an entitlement to something,

We all have rights, and lack some rights, as we are not entitled to 'everything.

. . .

Pretty common story to hear of pedophiles in prison being beaten or killed though,
Various reasons I'm sure.

. . .

Norway has nice prisons I hear.
Children don’t have certain rights until they reach adulthood such as Driving, sex, drinking, voting etc.

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@Shila
But they do have other rights.
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Children are not legally able to consent. Children are not physically ready to engage in any type of sexual activity especially with an adult. You are a predator committing rape. And you are admitting to serious felonies on an open message forum.
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@Polytheist-Witch
First, I am not committing anything. I dont know where you got that from.

Do you just assume that everyone who says "children can consent" is a rapist?

"Legally unable" is not an argument.

If you claim children are not physically ready, then explain why.
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@Best.Korea
Oh absolutely not I'm not going to explain to a pedophile why they're sick. I said my peace and I've given you your warning it's all on you at this point.
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@Best.Korea
[ADOL] Incomplete theory because it assumes that complete knowledge is inevitable (or even possible).
[Best.Korea] Actually, it only says that ones consent can be violated only in cases where it uphelds ones greater consent.

Its purpose was to describe when is it allowed to violate ones consent.

So, violations of consent that dont serve such purpose are unjustified.

And of course, an effort to upheld consent needs to be made by entire society.
No that is not the context of your statement. You were describing situations where consent can be considered invalid, namely if some possible future version of the individual would regret consenting.

I explained, with an example, why that is not the case. Consent is consent, the only thing that invalidates it is fraud.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Polytheist-Witch
That is a complete lie. There are plenty of people who have died, children, babies and women and men due to the trauma caused by a sexual assault to their body. There are people who have been killed so they did not talk about being sexually assaulted.
You really should understand the difference between an implied "some" and an implied "all" before you sign up to a debate site.
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@Best.Korea
First, I am not committing anything. I dont know where you got that from.

Do you just assume that everyone who says "children can consent" is a rapist?
We assume that everyone who says they went to prison for acts of pedophilia is a rapist.

"Legally unable" is not an argument.
If you want to stay out of prison, you better accept that as a valid argument.

If you claim children are not physically ready, then explain why.
You are a pedophile, you probably aren't capable of understanding why. 

All you really need to understand is that there are consequences if you act, you began this thread by telling us you  know what the consequences are, if you act, there are a lot of parents in prison that will explain it to you. 


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@ADreamOfLiberty
Your example did not include any case of violation of consent, that was not included in my already described position.

Your example of fraud provided an example that is not an exception to my argument.
Fraud is included in greater consent argument.

With the presence of a fraud, consent is diminished.

The example with children being left in house is a violation of consent unless children agreed to it and no harm comes to them.
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@Sidewalker
This is you confusing your unnatural desire with logic and morality, if you think you can justify it here and then act on it, then you weren't treated badly enough in prison.
I think you're confusing torture with logic and morality.

There is no connection between being raped in prison and being morally wrong.
No, I'm saying the crime of pedophilaa  is morally wrong,  the connection be that by acting on that impulse that he's trying to justify, is what puts you in prison.
What lands you in prison or not has nothing to do with the validity of an argument. What gets you tortured in prison or not has nothing to do with the validity of an argument. That was appeal to force, nothing more.

Before I posted this you made it even more explicit:

"Legally unable" is not an argument.
If you want to stay out of prison, you better accept that as a valid argument.

Prison is supposed to be a deterrent, he had a very bad experience in prison, but nevertheless, he's still here justifying the crime, saying it should be OK.  But it's not OK, he needs to understand that or suffer the consequences.
When people who advertise their willingness to be rational by signing up to a debate site fling logic out the window and openly use well known fallacies in fits of anger and disgust it sends one message: You're right, we haven't a clue why it is wrong.

If you want to know why he/she might be able to look in the mirror and feel justified look no further than your own lack of control over your emotions, at your own shallow contemplation.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"if some possible future version of the individual would regret consenting"

Not regret in a sense that they changed their mind.

But regret in a sense that if they only have partial knowledge of an action before consenting, and after consenting it would turn out that the action had severe negative consequences to individuals goals that individual was unaware of.

ahiyah
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@Lemming
But they do have other rights.
Yeah, they have the right to be kept free from harm and receive protections that most adults generally don’t get. For example, an adult can make choices that children can’t (e.g they can use drugs, get drunk, etc.) but if a child is exposed to or engaged in those things, the state is obligated to intervene in some way.

If you go to work and don’t do your job, you’ll just get fired. But, if you’re a child and you go to school and act out, appear to be neglected, or do harmful things...your parents are going to be asked questions.

With regard to pedophilia, it’s obvious that it is not only sick and abnormal, but is incredibly harmful to children as well. Most children understand that it’s harmful, and so are rarely ever willing participants. They can’t give consent anyway, but if they could they truly wouldn’t want to. 

I would argue that the treatment of pedophiles in prison is more than justified, as being convicted of a crime in relation to pedophilia means they have acted on their impulses and caused harm to a child. Even pedophiles who only look at inappropriate images of children are causing harm because someone had to put that child in a position where they could take (illegal) photos of them, and that child can’t give their consent to being photographed or having their images shared. 

So, they deserve what they get.

Note: for anyone who doesn’t understand why people hate pedophiles, it’s because of the immense harm they cause to children, who are extremely vulnerable and not willing participants who are capable of giving consent. Other disorders are also harmful, and they cause a lot of other people to end up in prison too; however, they are considered somewhat less harmful when they only result in the mistreatment of adults, who are considered to be much less vulnerable than children and equal to other adults. 

It’s that simple.
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@ahiyah
I agree and laud everything you said in post #87
except "treatment of pedophiles in prison is more than justified"

Though it's possible you meant them going to prison, being held accountable by the law with 'some type of correction.
Of which I'd agree.

But if you meant the torture and death they at times receive from other prisoners being justified, I'd disagree.
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@ahiyah
You said that it is harmful without explaining why its harmful.

You repeated that children cant consent without explaining why they cant consent.

You said children were mostly unwilling because "they know its harmful". 

So you assume its harmful. Then you assume that children think the same as you. Then you assume that because of that, they are unwilling.
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@ahiyah
--> @Lemming
But they do have other rights.
Yeah, they have the right to be kept free from harm and receive protections that most adults generally don’t get. For example, an adult can make choices that children can’t (e.g they can use drugs, get drunk, etc.) but if a child is exposed to or engaged in those things, the state is obligated to intervene in some way.

If you go to work and don’t do your job, you’ll just get fired. But, if you’re a child and you go to school and act out, appear to be neglected, or do harmful things...your parents are going to be asked questions.

With regard to pedophilia, it’s obvious that it is not only sick and abnormal, but is incredibly harmful to children as well. Most children understand that it’s harmful, and so are rarely ever willing participants. They can’t give consent anyway, but if they could they truly wouldn’t want to. 

I would argue that the treatment of pedophiles in prison is more than justified, as being convicted of a crime in relation to pedophilia means they have acted on their impulses and caused harm to a child. Even pedophiles who only look at inappropriate images of children are causing harm because someone had to put that child in a position where they could take (illegal) photos of them, and that child can’t give their consent to being photographed or having their images shared. 

So, they deserve what they get.

Note: for anyone who doesn’t understand why people hate pedophiles, it’s because of the immense harm they cause to children, who are extremely vulnerable and not willing participants who are capable of giving consent. Other disorders are also harmful, and they cause a lot of other people to end up in prison too; however, they are considered somewhat less harmful when they only result in the mistreatment of adults, who are considered to be much less vulnerable than children and equal to other adults. 

It’s that simple.

Well put. Children have to be protected.