"Gender Affirming Care" is a snare and a delusion

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#61
Danielle
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@thett3
Instead what’s actually happening is that the individual is destroying their body, often sterilizing themselves and ensuring they’ll never have children or causing lasting damage such as unwanted body hair or permanently changed voices. 
You're forgetting that just because child bearing (or sustaining the human population in perpetuity) is important thing to you, it's not to many people, especially trans people born female. 

I would also point out that every surgical procedure comes with risks. We've all heard the horror stories of plastic surgery gone wrong,  yet people don't spend so much time and energy (especially in politics or the media) looking to shame or persuade people not to get nose jobs or butt lifts. Making your titties bigger is perfectly fine if not encouraged, but chopping your titties off is something that is everyone's business and mission to rail against apparently. 


In extreme cases surgical mutilation occurs at an age where an individual is not allowed to buy a beer, own a gun, have sex, or even drive a car.
That's the case for a lot of procedures, but most of these regulations (except for sexual age of consent) are in place to protect society and not the individual. 


Very few if any actually manage to pass, 
What's it to ya? 


In extreme cases, the desire to change sex consumes the entire personality and these people cease to exist for any reason other than to be transsexual. 
This applies to everyone and everything. Look at the people with Trump avatars, Trump clothes, Trump flags, Trump bumper stickers, Trump manicures,  eating Trump cheeseburgers at Trump themed fast food joints, etc. A lot of things consume people's entire personality: their hobbies, sports, politics, their job... so what? 


Many of those who detransition discover with horror that many of the changes to their bodies are permanent. De transition forums are chalk full of girls crying their eyes out over their permanently deep voices, their anger that they’ll never be pretty again, the tragic realization that they will never be able to have children…and their cries fall on deaf ears except to supposedly hateful people like me. 
It's always so weird to me that people bring this up as if there are not transition forums chock full of people crying tears of joy and talking about how transitioning was the best thing that's ever happened to them, cured their depression, made them feel whole, made them feel seen, made them feel validated and changed their lives for the better. Apparently we're supposed to pretend those people don't exist even though they account for the overwhelming majority. "Hey did you hear about the 2% of people with regrets?!" doesn't seem like a great talking point, and yet it's brought up by anti trans people constantly despite being such a bad point. 

Even if you found a study that said 15% of people regret transitioning it would still be a really weak point to bring up in opposition. If I was suffering from gender dysphoria and subsequently severe depression to the point of being a high suicide risk, and I knew 85% of people that transitioned had their lives significantly improve, I would take that chance and you would be an idiot not to. Hmm death or mastectomy death or mastectomy... killing myself or getting new implants... hmm decisions decisions... 

 Uh, news flash, breasts are organs not sex objects. Sure you can get fake tits but you’ll never be able to use them for their actual purpose of nursing an infant and your body (a holistic system) will forever be missing a piece 
Wow are you gonna join the #FreeTheNipple and pro breast feeding in public campaigns because boobs are solely for functional use? I dare you to tell your future daughter that it's okay for her to walk around topless as a teenage girl because  tits are just for food lol. I kid. But to me this is just as useless as saying that it's pointless to dye your hair because the only purpose of hair is to insulate the body and conserve heat. It may be true from an evolutionary standpoint, but it is a fact that how people physically present themselves to the world conveys a lot socially and impacts how the world treats them + their own self-esteem. 



#62
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@Danielle
but please don't bring up nonsense used against gays and pretend it's applicable to trans people. 
You can make a good argument that the similar drug therapies definitely shorten a lifespan.
#63
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You are welcome!
#64
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Is being transgender a mental disorder?

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

#65
Best.Korea
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I always hated psychologists and psychiatrists. They seem to be used by US government to justify harmful decisions.

Even today, they give drugs to toddlers. 

Also, they are meddlers.
Most people dont understand the dangers of meddling into other peoples private lives.

I wouldnt call psychology or psychiatry a science.
Its just a modern form of whichcraft.
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#66
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@Danielle
I'm surprised you would present Foucault in a positive light. 

And why is that?
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#67
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@Danielle
Are you suggesting that people's personal freedom and bodily autonomy should be totally ignored and discontinued, or just persuaded against and shamed  like homosexuality? 
Your question isn't really a question, is it?  Instead, it's an argument that you've disguised as a question to suggest without merit that agreeing with what I said implies either of those absurdities. 

I don't see the point in denying nonsensical implications that no rational person could reach from any lucid reading of what I wrote --- here or otherwise (and including to the extent you have contradicted what I said about the history/practice of psychiatry from your apparently misinformed position).  

So should people's gender or sexual identity not be affirmed? 
It seems we must distinguish between two obviously distinct concepts: personal freedom and bodily autonomy vs. gender or sexual identity.  

That all may exist under conditions of liberty, where each is free to be as they are and live his or her life according to one's individual choice, and do so without external resistance is the value premise from which this discussion rightfully begins.  For the sake of simplicity, let's just call that "being free."  That all have a right to be free is self evident.  On this point, I'm pretty sure we both agree.  

Being free is not the same thing as being "affirmed," as belonging to the external categories we either select for ourselves or which are thrust upon us by intrinsic qualities.  To be "affirmed" is more than being free, because affirmation as a form of external validation requires that others "affirm" you.  

On a personal level, bigotry in the forms of homophobia, racism and the like deeply offends me.  But my subjective disagreement with another person's opinions, however idiotic they may be, do not give me the right to compel another's "affirmation" of anything.  Klan members have the right to be Klan members, just as the Family Research Council has the right to publish pseudoscience on the supposed "dangers" of kids raised by two dads.

Similarly, to be "affirmed" as belonging to the external categories we either select for ourselves or which are thrust upon us by intrinsic qualities, to any extent it occurs must never come at the expense of being free (as I have described above).  And that's actually a lot closer to the point of what I wrote.

Your particular error (among others) is in your presumption that systems of power/knowledge which ostensibly "affirm" such "gender" or other identities both actually do so and exist for that purpose, such that they could not bring about any harmful impact since doing so would be contrary to how you understand their "intent" --- even in the face of contrary evidence which you have, yourself, referenced.   This is one reason why you are wrong, but there are others.

Psychiatry is exactly what Foucault said it was.  It is a field of expertise reinforced by practitioners and their instrumentalities of association and production of what passes for psychiatric expertise, according to those in the field. It has caused considerable harm in the past and continues to do so now.  The form of those harms has changed, examples of which I listed in my OP.   

But the heteronormative prejudices have not.  Particularly to the extent the so-called field of psychiatry has pathologized ordinary gender play, given it a name and by implication a new category within which a new class of supposed victims must fall . . . and even more egregiously on whose behalf the field of psychiatry now purports to advocate.  

A very small subset of people may, in fact, be trans.  But for most, it's play that loses appeal before puberty.  And if it doesn't, most of the time it's just a fetish.  I don't have a problem with people having fetishes or even orienting their lives around that fetish.  I also don't have a problem with people doing literally anything to their bodies they desire, to the extent they retain the agency to make such decisions. 

Children, however, have no such agency . . . at least before they are 14-16 years old.  Now, a field of self-styled experts peddle pseudoscience on par with the fraud they peddled in support of lobotomies and all the other shit you listed.  Much of which is even more deficient than Family Research Council's crackpot nonsense opposing gay parenthood. 

It's bullshit on stilts sold as gender affirming therapy.   And it's the opposite of progress.  

The point is to get the psychiatrists to leave the kids alone.  

The rest of what you said is irrelevant.    Further dialogue beyond what I have written here here is not necessary. 


#68
bmdrocks21
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@badger
While we're in the business of managing other people's experience of reality, I'll again point out that your children are bringing machine guns to school in order to mow each other down.
That average of 13 liters of pure alcohol per year must be killing your brain. This has nothing to do with the topic

Your tacit support of child genital mutilation is duly noted, however
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#69
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@Ramshutu
I read your post above, which contains the question I have quoted below.  I will not read another post like that.  

But that all leads me back to my first reply - what would the correct care be assuming that transgenderism actually exist?
I have no objection to any adult's  conscious choice to harm their body in any way they desire to do so, whether voluntary consumption of dangerous substances of any kind, voluntary bodily modification of any kind and the like.  For example, I have no objection to adult's voluntary consumption of any substance whatsoever, whether it's pot, heroin, meth or depo provera.  Likewise, I have no objection to any adult's voluntary choice to undergo any bodily modification, whether it's plastic surgery, piercings, gauges, obnoxious tattoos or sex change operations. 

However, we are not talking about voluntary harm an adult causes to his or her own body.  We are talking about something I overwhelmingly object to: pseudoscience being used to harm people in egregious and unforgivable ways.   Worse, that harm is being sold as the opposite.  Not as what it is, but as something beneficial.  Some kind of "treatment" or "care" when in fact it is no such thing.  

What we are talking about is a field of so-called "expertise," that at once defines the scope of its own legitimacy and forecloses all external criticisms of it.  We are talking about the field of psychiatry.  More specifically, we are talking about a very narrow set of activities within the scope of "gender affirming care," that ostensibly constitute "psychiatric practice," according to the psychiatrists.  

I criticised that specific activity, when I wrote "gender affirming care" is a snare and a delusion, because it is the same mistake made within living memory repeating again.  

I cannot imagine why you would ask me "what would the correct care be assuming that transgenderism actually exist?"

While not directly relevant to the point I made, gender dysphoria is not a "disorder" for the same reason homosexuality is not a disorder.  And it does not require "treatment" for the same reason homosexuality does not require treatment.  

The "correct" practice would be for the field of psychiatry to desist from all activities within the scope of "gender affirming care," regardless of whether gender dysphoria is or is not a "disorder." 





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#70
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@bmdrocks21
Your tacit support of child genital mutilation is duly noted, however
Well he's a fucking pedophile, so what do you expect? 

#71
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@coal
He’s a pedophile?
#72
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@badger
Well he's a fucking pedophile, so what do you expect?
Does this explain your obsession with the rare and sensationalized school shootings? Are you distraught by the missed chance to chain those kids up in your cellar?
#73
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@coal
As for the topic, well-argued post. However, I would hesitate to throw all the blame on the psychology community. Many medical fields, especially those less based in concrete facts like psychology, are highly susceptible to public pressure. In fact, public pressure was a large driver of homosexuality’s removal from the DSM and popular sentiment in the years prior was part of the reason it was included in it.

The problem we have isn’t just coming from psychologists, although they do enable the problem by playing into the delusions of the mentally ill and confused. But the main issue we have is that of a perverted social status hierarchy. It is a very common experience for kids, especially girls, to brag about their mental illnesses. Being diagnosed with, say, depression and anxiety instantly grants you clout. The transgenderism movement is the newest, most “oppressed” status that you can attain. In addition to this, many try to escape their “oppressor” class of being white by joining the cult of the oppressed. 

And there is second-hand clout to be gained by being associated with a transgender, whether it be your child or your student that you helped confuse. So you can expect many adults in positions of trust to be provoking thoughts such as these within kids.

Only by upsetting this prevailing societal dysgenic hierarchy can we expect downstream institutions to stop preying on the mentally ill, confused, and those incapable of making decisions for themselves (ie. Minors)
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#74
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@bmdrocks21
He’s a pedophile?
He's the first to creep on any underaged girl that joined DDO, with rapey commentary and harassments both public and private.  

And he pretty much thinks all gays are pedophiles, which implies projection on his part.  But I won't psychoanalyze his deviant behaviour any further.  
#75
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@Danielle
I would also point out that every surgical procedure comes with risks. We've all heard the horror stories of plastic surgery gone wrong,  yet people don't spend so much time and energy (especially in politics or the media) looking to shame or persuade people not to get nose jobs or butt lifts. Making your titties bigger is perfectly fine if not encouraged, but chopping your titties off is something that is everyone's business and mission to rail against apparently. 
Should 14 year old be allowed to undergo breast augmentation surgery? What age should children be allowed to purchase alcohol? Join the military? Purchase a firearm? Adopt a child?

My problem is with children who were very clearly groomed and manipulated into doing irreversible harm to their body. There’s an ethical debate about to be had about if doctors should remove healthy organs (there are people out there who want an arm or leg removed, I wouldn’t respect any doctor that actually did that) but between consenting adults isn’t my business. The “mind your own business” line of thought ends when it comes to children. 

This applies to everyone and everything. Look at the people with Trump avatars, Trump clothes, Trump flags, Trump bumper stickers, Trump manicures,  eating Trump cheeseburgers at Trump themed fast food joints, etc. A lot of things consume people's entire personality: their hobbies, sports, politics, their job... so what?
Again, the “so what” is that we are talking about literal children who are making a mistake. I care about vulnerable people. I feel really bad for someone who destroys their body before they’re even in their 20s. Do you honestly believe that 2% of a sexually dimorphic species are people born in the “wrong” body? Because that’s the current percentage of youth that identify as transgender.

It’s true that many obsessions can go overboard. That’s why we shouldn’t encourage unhealthy fixations, especially in children. What especially grinds my gears about it is the big stigma about telling the truth, which is that they will never be the gender they wish to be and will never pass. Harsh but true. Love requires being harsh but honest 

It's always so weird to me that people bring this up as if there are not transition forums chock full of people crying tears of joy and talking about how transitioning was the best thing that's ever happened to them, cured their depression, made them feel whole, made them feel seen, made them feel validated and changed their lives for the better. Apparently we're supposed to pretend those people don't exist even though they account for the overwhelming majority. "Hey did you hear about the 2% of people with regrets?!" doesn't seem like a great talking point, and yet it's brought up by anti trans people constantly despite being such a bad point.

Even if you found a study that said 15% of people regret transitioning it would still be a really weak point to bring up in opposition. If I was suffering from gender dysphoria and subsequently severe depression to the point of being a high suicide risk, and I knew 85% of people that transitioned had their lives significantly improve, I would take that chance and you would be an idiot not to. Hmm death or mastectomy death or mastectomy... killing myself or getting new implants... hmm decisions decisions...
There isn’t really much of any evidence on post transition outcomes for children since this began in earnest very very recently. Like the past five years. These drugs and surgeries have long term irreversible effects. Where is the harm in discouraging minors from transitioning before they can make decisions? Don’t you remember what it was like to be a teen? 

But it’s true that I have a bias because I have a philosophical objection to the entire idea. If a male patient is fixated on being a woman, has his healthy penis removed and replaced with what will be a festering wound the rest of his life, I don’t think that’s a positive outcome just because he reports that he’s glad it happened. Not any more than I would think it’s a positive outcome that someone who wanted their healthy legs removed got their wish. In both cases I view their decision making capacity to be stunted by mental illness. 

Wow are you gonna join the #FreeTheNipple and pro breast feeding in public campaigns because boobs are solely for functional use? I dare you to tell your future daughter that it's okay for her to walk around topless as a teenage girl because  tits are just for food lol. I kid. But to me this is just as useless as saying that it's pointless to dye your hair because the only purpose of hair is to insulate the body and conserve heat. It may be true from an evolutionary standpoint, but it is a fact that how people physically present themselves to the world conveys a lot socially and impacts how the world treats them + their own self-esteem.
You’d be surprised. I don’t think women should go around topless because I think it’s good and healthy that parts of the body have a mystique/sexuality to them but there isn’t anything inherently immoral about it. If you really think about just about any part of the body other than genitals aren’t inherently sexual. In china back in the day men fetishized bound feet while public breast feeding was common 

But no, that isn’t at all the same thing. Dying your hair doesn’t destroy its function. Breasts are sexualized (and I think that’s a good thing) but their primary purpose is as an organ and not as a sex toy. Not accusing you of anything and I’m not about to get on a social justice high horse but how is that not insanely sexist to say that a part of a woman’s body is so much a sexual object that who cares if it’s damaged or destroyed in the pursuit of looks
#76
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@bmdrocks21
However, I would hesitate to throw all the blame on the psychology community. Many medical fields, especially those less based in concrete facts like psychology, are highly susceptible to public pressure. In fact, public pressure was a large driver of homosexuality’s removal from the DSM and popular sentiment in the years prior was part of the reason it was included in it.
The newer the field the further away from the scientific method it is. Look how piss poor nutrition science is (remember the food pyramid lol.) Psychology is an important field but it’s such a deeply complicated one that yeah everything needs to be taken with an enormous grain of salt. Theres few fields where you should “trust the experts” less
#77
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@bmdrocks21
He isn’t a pedophile. He’s an Irishman. Capable of making good and soulful work but also a degenerate, very common for the emerald isle 

#78
RationalMadman
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I have no objection to any adult's  conscious choice to harm their body in any way they desire to do so, whether voluntary consumption of dangerous substances of any kind, voluntary bodily modification of any kind and the like.  For example, I have no objection to adult's voluntary consumption of any substance whatsoever, whether it's pot, heroin, meth or depo provera.  Likewise, I have no objection to any adult's voluntary choice to undergo any bodily modification, whether it's plastic surgery, piercings, gauges, obnoxious tattoos or sex change operations. 
How the fuck is heroin and meth being compared to weed and tattoos?

Get some perspective, heroin and meth are fucking life-destroying. Anyone who doesn't hate them is scum to me.
#79
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@Best.Korea
I always hated psychologists and psychiatrists. They seem to be used by US government to justify harmful decisions.

Even today, they give drugs to toddlers. 

Also, they are meddlers.
Most people dont understand the dangers of meddling into other peoples private lives.

I wouldnt call psychology or psychiatry a science.
It’s just a modern form of whichcraft.
Yeah the rush to medicate for all things is a big problem. Psychological drugs have helped a lot of people and so has therapy but for a lot of people who are depressed, especially men, the root cause is a bad diet, lack of exercise, and lack of sunlight…the body is crying out for help and the drugs are putting a bandaid over it 

And giving kids drugs as much as we do is obscene. Maybe not every kid has ADHD and school is just fucking boring? 
#80
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@thett3
He isn’t a pedophile. He’s an Irishman. Capable of making good and soulful work but also a degenerate, very common for the emerald isle
I tend to like the Irish very much. I take exception to him. Seems like one of those knock-off Ulster Irish.


The newer the field the further away from the scientific method it is. Look how piss poor nutrition science is (remember the food pyramid lol.) Psychology is an important field but it’s such a deeply complicated one that yeah everything needs to be taken with an enormous grain of salt. Theres few fields where you should “trust the experts” less
The newer do seem to be worse as a general rule. However, medicine is one of the oldest out there and that is quickly losing its sanity. I think that pretty soon the Newtonian laws will be bending the knee to affirm BLM
#81
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@Bones
Why the need to mention conservative? Who mentioned the political divide? We need not any more division in society, do we?
Because the purpose of wedge issues is precisely to focus the conversation on those subjects which will peel undecided people over to the conservative side over time. Whether or not any substantive discussion actually takes place, simply the fact that these are the topics being discussed tilts things in a conservative direction. Of course something like detransitioning is a conversation that should take place, but it is a very sensitive topic which should be discussed by qualified and unbiased people, not conservatives given that they are constitutionally incapable of acting in good faith. The idea that these are the subjects we are discussing is something that conservative think tanks and people like Peter Thiel have put millions of dollars into to ensure it would be the framework and focus which directs attention. Why do you think Jordan Peterson has been pumping out videos repeating the exact same lies for so many years now, with no progress, engaged debate or intellectual curiosity? It's because those are the talking points which benefit the conservative think tanks which are where his money comes from. Therefore these posts are as much advertisements as they are intellectual engagement - something like the OP is not the kind of thing someone would write whose goal was actually to make life better for trans people.

So you didn't read the OP then. 
Of course I read it.
#82
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@rbelivb
Because the purpose of wedge issues is precisely to focus the conversation on those subjects which will peel undecided people over to the conservative side over time. Whether or not any substantive discussion actually takes place, simply the fact that these are the topics being discussed tilts things in a conservative direction.
Ought not the question of whether any "substantive discussion" be more important than the political learning of the speakers? 

Why do you think Jordan Peterson has been pumping out videos repeating the exact same lies for so many years now, with no progress, engaged debate or intellectual curiosity?
I'm not sure why you are mentioning Jordan Peterson in this context - it seems utterly irrelevant. 

It's because those are the talking points which benefit the conservative think tanks which are where his money comes from.
And you don't see that the left (as you seem so keen to speak in these terms) also participates in fueling their own think tanks?

So you didn't read the OP then. 
Of course I read it.
Then why were you under the impression that Coal  that every "slightly feminine teenager should be castrated". 
#83
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@bmdrocks21
I tend to like the Irish very much. I take exception to him. Seems like one of those knock-off Ulster Irish.

You like me well enough and I find you a good deal of fun also. You're just salty about last time.

I'm the rightful king of the Irish.


#84
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@badger
Fun fact, my mentor was Irish, In October he is coming out of retirement and I will see him again!

MVP- Patty O'Malley

#85
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@coal
A very small subset of people may, in fact, be trans.  But for most, it's play that loses appeal before puberty.  And if it doesn't, most of the time it's just a fetish.  I don't have a problem with people having fetishes or even orienting their lives around that fetish.  I also don't have a problem with people doing literally anything to their bodies they desire, to the extent they retain the agency to make such decisions. 

Children, however, have no such agency . . . at least before they are 14-16 years old.  Now, a field of self-styled experts peddle pseudoscience on par with the fraud they peddled in support of lobotomies and all the other shit you listed.  Much of which is even more deficient than Family Research Council's crackpot nonsense opposing gay parenthood. 

In some states, it's easier for a minor to get Gender surgery or drug therapy than it is to get a tattoo.

#86
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@rbelivb
Of course something like detransitioning is a conversation that should take place, but it is a very sensitive topic which should be discussed by qualified and unbiased people, not conservatives given that they are constitutionally incapable of acting in good faith. 
The one acting in bad faith here is you. The “right wing” people in this thread have been having a substantive discussion on the issue, whereas you have made three posts entirely worthless posts now claiming that we shouldn’t talk about it and accusing people of being in bad faith for doing so. 
#87
bmdrocks21
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@badger
You like me well enough and I find you a good deal of fun also. You're just salty about last time
Ok, maybe I do a little deep down 😘 

#88
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@bmdrocks21
I do too, it's probably some primordial guilty vice, but I can't help it!
#89
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@Greyparrot
The true snare isn’t gender affirming care - it was badger’s lovability all along 
#90
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@thett3
It's a horrible trend from the progressive left. For a group of people who constantly claim "silence is violence," they sure do spend a lot of time shutting people down when they want to talk about issues. A real head scratcher.