Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
finally - the question of god is resolved.
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@Stephen
@Ramshutu
@FLRW
@Double_R
@Bones
would you like me to send you bible so you can start repenting?
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
All very 'Matt Slick' apologetics, I will wager.
Would you like me to send you bible so you can start repenting?
Does one need such a book to repent? If so, why?
Incidentally, Why would you - a self confessed Sikh - be promoting and recommending the Christian bible. I would have thought that the sacred book The Guru Granth Sahib - for a Sikh and a believer in reincarnation that is - would be first in line for promoting?
Tonga! Now that has to be a first for this forum. Congratulations!
Both Tamil ( Shiva) AND a Sikh (Waheguru)! ...... That promotes the Christian bible. That is unusual.
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@Vici
Can you name one of these absolutes?
1. TAG commits the "God of the Gaps" fallacy, wherein one utilizes the incredulity of our current breadth of knowledge and substitutes "God" for any unknown phenomenon.
2. False dichotomy. It is not the case that logic is either accounted for via a naturalistic explanation or theistic one - their exists an infinite number of "possible" (defined merely as that which is not internally contradictory) explanations for logic. The inability for the status quo to account for them does not confirm the theistic proposal.
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@Vici
Not sure why you're mad at all them they're like you. You only believe one God exists and they believe no gods exist so technically you're all atheist.
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute.
How can you possibly know this?
But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
Why is the only possibly source of logical absolutes a mind that has authored them?
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@Stephen
All very 'Matt Slick' apologetics, I will wager.
going to refute it?
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@Ehyeh
law of non contradiction
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@Vici
I'm aware of the law of non contradiction. I just want an example of a logical absolute beyond time, space etc. I would argue no intellectual processes are beyond time and space as its a contradiction to even have a thought if time/space didn't exist as there's nothing to have thoughts in or to allow thoughts.
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@Ramshutu
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute.How can you possibly know this?
evidence. everything I said makes sense.
But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.Why is the only possibly source of logical absolutes a mind that has authored them?
Logical Absolutes are conceptual by nature.
- Logic is a process of the mind. Logical absolutes provide the framework for logical thought processes. Therefore, it seems proper to say that Logical Absolutes are conceptual by nature since Logical Absolutes are truth statements about Logical things.
- If you disagree that Logical Absolutes are conceptual by nature, then please explain what they are if not conceptual realities.
- If you cannot determine what they are, then how can you logically assert that they are not conceptual realities since logic is a process of the mind and logical absolutes are truth statements which are also products of the mind? Expanded: Logical absolutes are either conceptual by nature, or they are not.
- If you disagree that Logical Absolutes are conceptual by nature, then please explain what they are if not conceptual realities.
- If they are conceptual by nature, then they are not dependent upon the physical universe for their existence.
- If they are dependent on the physical universe for their existence, then are they said to be properties of the universe the same way that red is a property of an apple?
- If Logical Absolutes are said to be properties of the universe, then can they be measured the same way that other properties of the universe can be measured? If they cannot, then how are they properties of the physical universe?
- If they are not properties of the universe and they are of the mind, then it seems proper to say that they are conceptual by nature and that they depend on mind for their existence.
- If they are dependent on the physical universe for their existence, then are they said to be properties of the universe the same way that red is a property of an apple?
- Thoughts reflect the mind
- A person’s thoughts are the product of that person’s mind.
- A mind that is irrational will produce irrational thoughts.
- A mind that is rational will produce rational thoughts.
- It seems fair to say that an absolutely perfect mind would produce perfect thoughts.
- Since the Logical Absolutes are transcendent, absolute, are perfectly consistent, and are independent of the universe, then it seems proper to say that they reflect a transcendent, absolute, perfect, and independent mind.
- We call this transcendent, absolute, perfect, and independent mind God since a physical brain is not transcendent by nature because it is limited to physical space; and God is, by definition, transcendent in nature.
- A person’s thoughts are the product of that person’s mind.
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@Ehyeh
I'm aware of the law of non contradiction. I just want an example of a logical absolute beyond time, space etc. I would argue no intellectual processes are beyond time and space as its a contradiction to even have a thought if time/space didn't exist as there's nothing to have thoughts in or to allow thoughts.
it is a logical absolute beyond time space etc. regardless of when and where x is x and not x is not x.
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
The argument is to prove the existence of God, exclusively
the Christian God and as such ignores the possibility of other gods. The problem
is that the argument could be equally used to validate the existence of those
other gods. So if it can be used to validate the existence of other gods, then
the Christian God whose main attribute is his uniqueness cannot exist.
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@Vici
evidence. everything I said makes sense.
Consider:
are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true.
There is no reason to believe any of that is true, and I don’t believe you have any evidence to support any of this.
For example, please explain your evidence to explain why a universe in which 1+1 != 2 - or in which our standard rules of logic don’t apply - can’t exist.
Simply asserting that logical rules have some magical quality - is not a good argument.
Logical Absolutes are conceptual by nature.
Okay - this is just meaningless word salad. Let me explain what logic is.
The universe is the universe, it works the way it works. True and false is not a concept that exists in reality at some universal level - we only have what is.
Humans, on the other hand, have the ability to communicate and use words; we can describe concepts, things and systems that only exist in our heads, and we can put together words and ideas that are inconsistent with itself.
I can describe a square, I can describe a circle, I can describe a square circle - a shape that is perfectly square, and also perfectly circular.
Logic is just the rules we have come up with to tell whether an idea we create is inconsistent with all our other ideas or not.
Take a basic example. Two balls in a box - one red, one blue. You remove a ball and it’s red, this means the other ball is what? - The answer is based on logic - but that logic is merely a set of rules to make an answer consistent with what we know.
If that were a real scenario - there is merely a red ball and blue ball. Logic doesn’t make the remaining ball red or blue - that’s just what the ball is. If I pull out a blue ball - it is not some universal process that comes together to enforce that redness of the other ball - that’s just what the remaining ball is. No transcendental logic governing reality - just reality.
There are even cases where our conceptual notion of logic breaks down: quantum superposition, wave particle duality - particles are circles and also squares. And pretty much any science smaller than the radius of an atom. We don’t apply the same logic there as we do in the real world, we simply adjust what our ideas are - our understanding of the world, and then explore what other ideas are consistent with it. It’s all in our head.
Take for example a square triangle.
A square is a description of a thing: a triangle is a description of a thing. A side is a description of a thing. And we can’t have a square triangle because our description of shape has a set number of sides.
The logical absolutes here tell us that a square triangle doesn’t exist.
But in terms of the universe - honey badger don’t care.
There’s no reason in the universe we can’t have a 2 dimensional object that has four sides when view above, and three when viewed below; or any number of things in between.
If that occurred our logic and ideas would adjust to allow our ideas to remain consistent with how the world is.
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@Vici
The question of Gods existence is something that’s never going to be resolved. If the God that exists is a personal God who chooses not to reveal Himself and end the question once and for all why would we assume that our puny minds could ever override this divine decision. The way I view it the world is filled with hints or “Easter eggs” about God but never enough to definitively answer the question. That’s the point of faith which wouldn’t be worth very much if we could prove God existed with a syllogism
Every mind is unique. I’ve always believed in God, just more or less strongly depending on the time, but in the last few years I’ve become much more religious and confident that God exists. But I know pretty much for a fact that the train of thought that led me to that conclusion wouldn’t be convincing to a lot of people. Not because it’s stupid but because I’m my own person. If a person opens themselves to God He will come in the way that makes the most sense to them. I guess some people might find God through a syllogism or something but not very many. No disrespect but youre pretty much wasting your time and would make more progress winning people over to faith by being a positive influence in your community, helping people, basically living your faith than poasting online
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@thett3
--> @ViciThe question of Gods existence is something that’s never going to be resolved. If the God that exists is a personal God who chooses not to reveal Himself and end the question once and for all why would we assume that our puny minds could ever override this divine decision. The way I view it the world is filled with hints or “Easter eggs” about God but never enough to definitively answer the question. That’s the point of faith which wouldn’t be worth very much if we could prove God existed with a syllogismEvery mind is unique. I’ve always believed in God, just more or less strongly depending on the time, but in the last few years I’ve become much more religious and confident that God exists. But I know pretty much for a fact that the train of thought that led me to that conclusion wouldn’t be convincing to a lot of people. Not because it’s stupid but because I’m my own person. If a person opens themselves to God He will come in the way that makes the most sense to them. I guess some people might find God through a syllogism or something but not very many. No disrespect but youre pretty much wasting your time and would make more progress winning people over to faith by being a positive influence in your community, helping people, basically living your faith than poasting online
The question of god has already been resolved. We have 2 billion Christian’s who go by the Abrahamic God of the Bible. Another 2 billion Muslims who also go by the same Abrahamic God of the Bible. The two major religions are offshoots of Judaism which introduced the Abrahamic God of the Bible.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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@Shila
Firstly, we must resolve the dilemma.
Was or was not Abraham as high as a kite?
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@zedvictor4
--> @ShilaFirstly, we must resolve the dilemma.Was or was not Abraham as high as a kite?
We know Abraham and others in the OT were served alcohol during festivities. But that doesn’t mean he was drunk.
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@Vici
yeah, spinoza figured it out a few years back
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@3RU7AL
-> @Viciyeah, spinoza figured it out a few years back
Spinoza goes back a lot farther.
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
If in fact a transcendent mind independently thought the logical absolute rules upon which rational discourse is to be based, I'm pretty sure that transcendent mind would read this argument and say, "Nope, that's not what I was thinking".
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
How Gods mind works is detailed in the Bible. God sacrificed the world to save Noah with a giant flood. God then sacrificed his son Jesus to bring salvation to the Gentiles.
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@Shila
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.How Gods mind works is detailed in the Bible. God sacrificed the world to save Noah with a giant flood. God then sacrificed his son Jesus to bring salvation to the Gentiles.
Nope, how God's mind works is not detailed in the Bible, in fact, the Bible is explicit that we can't know the details of how Gods mind works.
Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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@Shila
Shamanic ritual often involves the use mind altering substances. Allowing the shaman to connect with a spirit realm.
Such substances were and are regionally common.
This would explain a lot.
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@Vici
Vici wrote: Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute.Ramshutu wrote: How can you possibly know this?Vici wrote: everything I said makes sense.
But you didn't write it did you.... unless you are Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry, and not the 92 year old Sikh from Tonga that you claim to be.?
Matt Slick.
The Transcendental Argument for the existence of God
by Matt Slick | Dec 9, 2008 | Defending the Faith, Apologetics
by Matt Slick | Dec 9, 2008 | Defending the Faith, Apologetics
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@Shila
God sacrificed the world to save Noah with a giant flood.
Nope! God, it is written in the bible, destroyed the earth, and if one takes the time to read the Summaries version of the flood/deluge , no one was supposed to be saved. It was the intervention of a benevolent god that caused Noah ( Atra-Hasis Sumerian )to be saved.
The Sumerian epic of the deluge predates the biblical flood by thousands of years. The flood story is not the only biblical story lifted from the epics of Sumer and adopted by the Hebrew writers as part of their own history.
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@Stephen
As ever, hand me down tales become either a new generations mythology, or even some people's misguided belief.
Such is the consequence of memory, data transfer and conditioning.
Atheists: getting knowledge on spiritual practices from TV. That why they know shit.
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@Vici
would you like me to send you bible so you can start repenting
Prove that the Bible is a reliable source of information for what exists beyond the observable universe first.
Then I’ll repent.
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@Vici
Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on space, time, physical properties, or human nature. They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter), because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds, because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere, and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind that is authoring them. This mind is called God.
If logical absolutes are authored by a mind then they can be changed by that mind, therefore they’re not absolutes.
Your argument refutes itself.