Is college worth it?

Author: Lair77

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Lair77
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With tuition costs increasing faster than wages, it's less of a value than it was decades also.  Also, it's less effective at setting people apart.  In the past, if you had a college degree, you were among a small percentage of people.  Now, there are many people with them.

Imo, college is worth it if:
  1. You know what you want to do.
  2. You're majoring in something that's in demand (<10-20% of majors).
Rising tuition costs make high school performance more important.  Someone with a high GPA in high school has access to scholarships.  If I had an offer between taking a $200k loan to go to Harvard vs. going to a public university for free, I would easily take the latter.

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@Lair77
With tuition costs increasing faster than wages, it's less of a value than it was decades also.  Also, it's less effective at setting people apart.  In the past, if you had a college degree, you were among a small percentage of people.  Now, there are many people with them.

Imo, college is worth it if:
  1. You know what you want to do.
  2. You're majoring in something that's in demand (<10-20% of majors). 
Rising tuition costs make high school performance more important.  Someone with a high GPA in high school has access to scholarships.  If I had an offer between taking a $200k loan to go to Harvard vs. going to a public university for free, I would easily take the latter.
Unlessyou are comfortable competing  with blacks and latinos for minimum wage jobs, college is the way to go.

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@Shila
That's really reductionist.  Overall, yes, people with degree, on average, earn more. 

But there are millions of people with degrees yet still have basic jobs.  Earning the same, or only slightly more than people with degrees, but they have 20-60k in debt to pay off. 

I'm not against college, but it needs to be done correctly - not just going for the sake of going.
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-> @Shila
That's really reductionist.  Overall, yes, people with degree, on average, earn more.  

But there are millions of people with degrees yet still have basic jobs.  Earning the same, or only slightly more than people with degrees, but they have 20-60k in debt to pay off.  

I'm not against college, but it needs to be done correctly - not just going for the sake of going
Being better educated is beneficial to society. You can contribute and participate more in public discussions.
You raise children that will probably go to college too. Why go through life thinking you were handed a hammer and all problems are nails.

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@Shila
Being better educated is beneficial to society. You can contribute and participate more in public discussions.

Collectively, yes.  But on an individual level, there still needs to be an incentive to make a decision.   If someone perceives something as beneficial to society but harmful to the individual, they may not do it. 


You raise children that will probably go to college too.

This is basically the American dream.  To become part of the top 40% of earners, and then raise kids to become in that top 40%.  And the main goal is to preserve the existence of the middle and uppermiddle class.  

  If this is the lifestyle a person prefers, they should pursue it.  It's not necessarily wrong.  However, this is essentially an argument  that people have a moral duty to meet society's expectations and serve other people.

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-> @Shila
Being better educated is beneficial to society. You can contribute and participate more in public discussions.

Collectively, yes.  But on an individual level, there still needs to be an incentive to make a decision.   If someone perceives something as beneficial to society but harmful to the individual, they may not do it.  

You raise children that will probably go to college too. 

This is basically the American dream.  To become part of the top 40% of earners, and then raise kids to become in that top 40%.  And the main goal is to preserve the existence of the middle and uppermiddle class.   

  If this is the lifestyle a person prefers, they should pursue it.  It's not necessarily wrong.  However, this is essentially an argument  that people have a moral duty to meet society's expectations and serve other people.
So what is wrong with the American Dream?



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@Lair77
See this thread, which contains discussion of the most comprehensive study ever conducted on the topic. You can search return on investment by school and by major

The short answer is yes it is worth the cost provided that the student is able to graduate and that the student chooses a good major. A fairly large number of programs even at elite institutions have a negative ROI whereas even the least competitive schools have degrees that pay handsomely. choice of major > all else 

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I was about to pull out all the statistics about the different college majors and how most of them don't lead to a better paying job, but then you beat me to it!
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But a little background on how little college has actually affected my work:

I graduated with a degree in communications in 2017. 

Since then I held about 5 or 6 jobs. While in  college I interned under someone who won political campaigns, worked for major newspapers, and did other stellar PR work. That internship taught me more about communications than my 4-year degree.

Fast forward. My first job out of college was in fast food. My second job out of college was an internship with one of the greatest naval architecture firms in the world as their communications consultant. 

Then I left that internship to work for a political copywriting firm. The firm actually hired me IN SPITE OF my degree. He said he never hired people from my college because they all had the wrong political ideology, but hired me because of my extensive experience as a journalist.

So, that journalism experience came from running my own blog and writing for another one as a paid staffer. I also ran Facebook and Twitter marketing campaigns and such. All of this was experience either with the internship or on my own, while I was attending college.

Then I left that job and started another news outlet. It got pretty big. Not Fox News big, but I have quite a few viral articles under my belt. I left it when, in COVID, all the revenue sources dried up and I was being paid just 25% of what I once was running the website. It just became unsustainable.

Now I work as a Public Relations consultant and I currently have a nationally-syndicated talk show host as my client.

I got, like, 90% of my work due to experience and not a sheet of paper saying I did good and checked the proverbial boxes.

Communications is a dying field, unfortunately, since computers are now writing articles, checking grammar, being the avatars for explainer videos, and writing advertising and other copy.

So would I say college was a good ROI for me? Fuck no. But getting experience in my field, on my own, and building a resume and products that showed my abilities is what set me apart from the other candidates.

But, unfortunately, my route is not viable for most students anymore. They need to start their own businesses, because the workforce is centralizing and computers are taking over an unprecedented amount of jobs. And there is an oversaturation of coders in the current job market, and there are also computers that write and validate code, which means that, if you don't start your own business, or you don't make the right connections to someone who can hire you, then you will be out of a job soon, even with your fancy MIT degree. 

What is stopping Google or Microsoft or most other companies from hiring someone from India who only needs $5/hr to survive? Even if they pay the indian $10/hr, he will be living like a KING in his country, and he will probably be doing your job.

But, now with bots being able to pass the turing test and such, and becoming e extremely competent in a wide range of historically human fields, jobs such as marketing, sales, video creation, music production, coding, voice acting, in-person acting, animation, journalism, web design, graphic design, photoshop, modeling, and more are going to be axed almost completely by computers within the next 15 years. Even robots do the bulk of manufacturing jobs, and those robots are getting cheaper by the year. There are algorithms that make hiring and firing decisions before recruiters even look at a single resume. AI is going to seriously fuck up the job market and many, MANY people are going to find themselves obsolete as workers, to quote The Twilight Zone.

So it might be a good idea to start your own company and use the robots to do your work until you figure out job security. Learn coding for yourself so you can build the robots that make your business work, or simply purchase the software that others made so you don't have to do the work.

That is what I see happening, and it will attack e everyone equally, regardless of their college degree.
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Is college worth it?
Yes and no.

When I got out of the military, I was told by a local police captain that my experience in federal law enforcement, working on the drug team under the Army's C.I.D., wasn't enough for their department. They wanted a college education. I promptly asked what that education was going to teach me that I didn't already know by experience. Know what he said? Social interactions with difference genders and races/ethnicities. I was like, "WTF do you think I was doing serving in the Armed Forces for five years, in Desert Shield/Storm and two tours in Cuba dealing with Haitians and Cubans FFS." So the college degree was worth it at this point given this demand. 

Fast forward, I go to college and get two degrees within the legal arena. Upon graduation I began applying for work with various law firms without success. I tried a legal employment agency, and I was directly told that my outstanding academic career made no difference since I had zero experience working in a law firm. So the college degrees were clearly not worth it. So, I went back to working for a law enforcement agency to bide my time. Time that worked in my favor working for a county, because when a legal position opened within the District Attorney's Office, I applied and got it easy peasy. 


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Yeah, it seems like college degrees can benefit in the long-run.  But in the short to mid-term, like the first 10 years, someone could be working a basic job to pay off lots of debt while they work their way up the career ladder.
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@Lair77
Yeah, it seems like college degrees can benefit in the long-run.  But in the short to mid-term, like the first 10 years, someone could be working a basic job to pay off lots of debt while they work their way up the career ladder.
Obama paid off his student loans 8 years before becoming President. It was not the loan that qualified him as president but the education.
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This is a really terrible argument.  You're cherrypicking.  I could equally cherrypick someone on the other extreme, who borrowed $80000 for a liberal arts degree just to be a cashier at a book store.

What matters is, on average, how does it affect most of the people.
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If you want a career that requires a college education then yes it's worth it. The question is do you want one of those careers if you don't then there's other options out there. And there are plenty of ways to go to school without spending $80,000. 
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@Shila
Also, Obama was lucky.

He studied in college 30-40 years ago when tuitions were much cheaper and law schools were not oversaturated like they are today.

Now, if you want the same degree Obama got, you easily pay 10x as much for it.  And you have far more competition in the job market because law schools willingly admit more students than there are positions for law jobs.

So would you borrow $250,000 to get an law degree, if there was a potential risk you might not even get a job in that field.  And even many of the people who do have to start with a job that only pays like 60k.   Which is not enough to pay today's rent prices, today's car prices AND pay off student debt at the same time. 

You're also not factoring in the interest.  When you borrow 250k, you don't actually pay 250k.  You might actually end up paying 350k with all of the interest, since interest always gets paid off first. 
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Also, Obama was lucky. 

He studied in college 30-40 years ago when tuitions were much cheaper and law schools were not oversaturated like they are today.

Now, if you want the same degree Obama got, you easily pay 10x as much for it.  And you have far more competition in the job market because law schools willingly admit more students than there are positions for law jobs.

So would you borrow $250,000 to get a law degree, if there was a potential risk you might not even get a job in that field.  Or if you do, maybe you make $50-60k a year.  

You're also not factoring in the interest.  When you borrow 250k, you don't actually pay 250k.  You might actually end up paying 350k with all of the interest, since interest always gets paid off first
That was just an example of how an education can get you to high places.
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And that example is no longer relevant because college today isn't the same as college back then.
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@Shila
Unlessyou are comfortable competing  with blacks and latinos for minimum wage jobs, college is the way to go.
Racist
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@Lair77

That was just an example of how an education can get you to high places.

And that example is no longer relevant because college today isn't the same as college back then.
Now with online courses offered college is more affordable than ever.
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I think a college/university education is beneficial, certainly regarding the job market, although there are those who make a financial success without such an education. It was beneficial for me as I obtained employment in a job I enjoyed and that was reasonably well paid.
 
I do think tuition fees should be abolished and entrance to university should be based on merit not on personal wealth. Higher education here in Britain used to be effectively free, as the state paid tuition fees and also offered maintenance grants to many. Then tuition fees were introduced across the United Kingdom in September 1998, ironically under Tony Blair’s supposedly Labour government.
 
I have personally known a number of young people, with the necessary academic ability and who have been put off applying for university simply because they didn’t want to accumulate the huge debts from taking out student loans.
 
Education should be for everyone, not based on social background and the ability to pay.
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The yanks won't go for free college because they don't like paying for the blacks.
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@badger
The yanks won't go for free college because they don't like paying for the blacks. 
There are more whites going unemployed and seeing blacks going to free college isn’t going to improving the white condition. The only one paying taxes are the Asians.

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@Shila
Who built this spambot? It's very impressive. 
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Who built this spambot? It's very impressive
It’s about free college for blacks. Not what the segregationist planned for.

With the banning of black history books. Blacks in college will go largely unknown. That is why free college for blacks was approved.

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@badger
People in America don't want free college cuz nobody wants to pay for anybody else's kid it has nothing to do with white / black. Whites don't want to pay for other white kids.
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@Polytheist-Witch
There's one big difference between America and every other developed nation, and that's your race issue. The whole rest of the world is about free college but yours and its divided people aren't. Hmm. 
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All politics in America goes back to race. It's a Pandora's box of a problem. 
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@badger
All politics in America goes back to race. It's a Pandora's box of a problem. 
Race to the bottom is often cited as Americas obsession. Even the BLM is a national slogan. Americans are unifying with the least common denominator as an American vision.

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@badger
That's because we are 50 individual countries even though people call US states. We basically in general want the federal government not to intrude upon things that have nothing to do with the federal government. And college is one of those things. The government is free at this point to give out whatever grants they want to people to work around this. I personally don't think you should get more than 2 years after high school pay for. Which means colleges should really streamline exactly what people need when they go to college and trade school would be paid for. If you want the type of job that takes more than 2 years of college then you should pay for it at that point. I don't think the government should be paying for anybody to go through 6-8 years of school for a lawyer or a doctor or a veterinarian or any of those other jobs that require that. And part of the reason for that is college students fuck off constantly.
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@Shila
Somebody's got to be the asshole it's always been us why should that change.