Abortion is NOT Murder, and it is perfectly SAFE

Author: TWS1405

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CoolApe
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@TWS1405
Infants, young children, and crippled geriatrics are all good examples of people who are unviable.

Is it ethical to euthanize infants, young children and crippled geriatrics because they can't survive on their own? 

This is a debate about huma procreation, abortion, and "fetal viability" where gestational development is concerned.

Viability can not be the basis for being a human being. Otherwise, it is ethical to murder infants, young children and crippled geriatrics.

I think your circumventing my argument. Your wasting my time. 
 
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@Public-Choice
You keep saying reading comprehension matters but you then proceed to misread my statements and those of biologists and even the federal law repeatedly.
And yet you have not proven this spurious claim. 

Also, insulting people doesn't make you smart, if you have to resort to ad hominem and appeal to ridicule then that means you can't actually attack the position. Your arguments are fallacious and an if-by-whiskey attempt at credibility and therefore irrational.


Prove me wrong when insulting those who do not know what they are talking about. Prove their position correct. Otherwise, they are wrong, and so you are, still.
Not all ad hominems are true ad hominems.


If you want to simply assert your own personal definition of personhood without any logic or reason or even a study or statement of fact associated with it, then so be it. But biologists, world religions, and the U.S. code have all assigned personhood to a preborn human. I am simply repeating what is already being said by others.

there is no 'personal' version of "person hood." It is clearly defined by law as previously noted. Your denialism and others likeminded are NOT evidence otherwise. 


It isn't just my own personal opinion that a baby is a human. It is the opinion of almost every biologist in surveys, and they (and I) base said opinion on the current known science.


A "pregnancy" is NOT [a] human being. Potentiality does NOT = actuality. 

If you disagree, then assert facts and studies and reality as your point of contention, not insults. Insults are not arguments, they are irrational statements masquerading as intelligence when there is none present in the actual argument.


Reality is my fact based, not your fiction. 
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@CoolApe
Infants, young children, and crippled geriatrics are all good examples of people who are unviable.

Is it ethical to euthanize infants, young children and crippled geriatrics because they can't survive on their own? 

This is a debate about huma procreation, abortion, and "fetal viability" where gestational development is concerned.

Viability can not be the basis for being a human being. Otherwise, it is ethical to murder infants, young children and crippled geriatrics.

I think your circumventing my argument. Your wasting my time. 

Oh, for FUCKS SAKE!!!

You idiots clearly do not know/understand the difference between fetal viability and actually BORN fetuses that become [a] child (i.e., [a] human being) upon birth. 
Public-Choice
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@TWS1405
You have not cited a single definition of personhood.
You have not cited a single definition of a human.
You have not cited a single instance or reputable source stating a pregnancy is not a human being.

And yet I need to prove my assertions?

The burden if proof is on the one who makes statements. Not the one who questions them. You did not ask me to prove any of my statements but instead made statements of your own and, when called out on that fact, and challenged to respond, to claim I don't know what these words mean.

If you assert a baby has no personhood, you need to defend that. If you assert a baby's life does not begin at conception, you need to defend that.

Your argument is irrational, and getting more irrational by the second.

I, on the other hand, have continued to cite reputable sources to defend my claim. I have supplied evidence, you have not. Who do you think is living his life in the Dunning Kruger effect currently? A person who cites sources, argues rationally and prefers to stick to the facts and data, or the person who responds with insults and doesn't offer proof of his assertions or definitions?
TWS1405
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@Public-Choice
You have not cited a single definition of personhood.
You have not cited a single definition of a human.
You have not cited a single instance or reputable source stating a pregnancy is not a human being.

And yet I need to prove my assertions?
I do not need to cite any definition as such definitions fall under common knowledge and are easily discernible based on the subject matter. 

The sciences of biology, physiology, sociology, psychology and more importantly, the LAW demonstrates that a pregnancy is not [a] human being.





Get it, or do I need to go on with example after example illustrating that fact of reality?


Section 1

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Even 1 U.S.C. §8 that you cited affirms the legal fact that one must be BORN to be defined as [a] human being and bestowed all the rights, privileges, immunities, and equal protection of the laws. NOT before birth. 



If you assert a baby has no personhood, you need to defend that.
It's called a dictionary for a reason. Look it up and note #7. It all surrounds/depends on BIRTH!


If you assert a baby's life does not begin at conception, you need to defend that.
I never claimed that. I have repeatedly said that the very basic biological criteria for life is met at conception. 
Your use of the term "baby" is a misnomer and an appeal to emotion.


Your argument is irrational, and getting more irrational by the second.
Easy to claim, harder to prove. 

Everything I've stated is fact based. Did you not see the #1 post


I, on the other hand, have continued to cite reputable sources to defend my claim. I have supplied evidence, you have not. Who do you think is living his life in the Dunning Kruger effect currently? A person who cites sources, argues rationally and prefers to stick to the facts and data, or the person who responds with insults and doesn't offer proof of his assertions or definitions?

I have substantiated my position. I have given proof. You just choose to ignore those proofs and cherry-pick the parts of my replies you think you can defeat. 

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@zedvictor4
From gamete fusion to birth, the zygote/embryo/foetus is naturally* reliant upon the host for survival.
this implies that it is alive, if it needs somethign to survive. 

you are arguing with science 
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@Vici
So:

Emotive arguments aside,

Respond with science,

And answer a simple question.

What actually is life?


So:

I would propose that,

It is the necessary potential which the organic must possess in order that it should be sustained.


But what is it?


And therefore:

Why would there be a difference between the necessary potential that sustains an embryo, and the necessary potential that sustains a grass seed?

Whereby we might propose that one is more important than the other.


Don't forget....Science rather than emotion and human bias.
Public-Choice
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@TWS1405
All of the human being photos you pictured are all merely clumps of cells. What makes one clump of cells different from another clump of cells?

It is for this reason virtually all biologists disagree with you and claim human life begins at fertilization. That zygote you cited is considered just as much human, from a biological standpoint, as all the other photos of people you gave. Because, at the end of the day, from a biological standpoint, you and I are clumps of cells too.

And since we have no idea, from a scientific standpoint, how life force works, you can't make a claim that the zygote has no consciousness or no soul or any such similar claims because it is an entirely unprovable assertion.

So, once again, you demonstrate your lack of expertise on biology and resort to endless appeals to ridicule and irrational rants instead of citing serious academic texts or rigorous defenses of your position based on facts, logic, and intellectual acumen.

I recommend reading this rigorously documented article in an internationally recognized think tank concerning facts about Abortion, because you clearly need to learn more on this topic:


There are 800 citations in it, which is much more comprehensive than most other abortion links.
3RU7AL
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@Vici
From gamete fusion to birth, the zygote/embryo/foetus is naturally* reliant upon the host for survival.
this implies that it is alive, if it needs somethign to survive. 

you are arguing with science 
we know that living cells are "alive"

exactly the same way we know a living cow is "alive"

a mouse is 97.5% genetically identical to a human

does that mean that a mouse should get 97.5% "human rights" ?
TWS1405
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@Public-Choice
All of the human being photos you pictured are all merely clumps of cells. What makes one clump of cells different from another clump of cells?
Asserted "clump of cells" argument translates to: "I have no legitimate rebuttal, so I will just claim everything is nothing more than a clump of cells without differentiation." In other words, an argument from ignorance.

It is for this reason virtually all biologists disagree with you and claim human life begins at fertilization.
No, they do not disagree with me; they agree with me. As I have repeatedly said, the very basic biological criterion for life begins at conception. Since this discussion involves human beings, clearly that life is human in origin. 

That zygote you cited is considered just as much human, from a biological standpoint, as all the other photos of people you gave. Because, at the end of the day, from a biological standpoint, you and I are clumps of cells too.
Wrong. Remove the zygote from the womb and it dies. A blastocyst is truly "a clump of cell," but it is still dividing, reproducing and developing. 


And since we have no idea, from a scientific standpoint, how life force works, you can't make a claim that the zygote has no consciousness or no soul or any such similar claims because it is an entirely unprovable assertion.
Another laughable argument from ignorance being asserted. Remarkable. 
I'll let the flagrant ignorance within that statement speak for itself and give others the laugh it deserves. 


So, once again, you demonstrate your lack of expertise on biology and resort to endless appeals to ridicule and irrational rants instead of citing serious academic texts or rigorous defenses of your position based on facts, logic, and intellectual acumen.
See, you just cherry-picked what you "thought" you could twist and rebut with unsubstantiated subjective claims of pure conjecture. 

Proved you wrong about when a pregnancy is bestowed personhood (i.e., legal status as [a] human being).
Proved you wrong about what is [a] human being and what is NOT [a] human being (i.e., potentiality does NOT equal actuality; never has, never will).

Talk about an epic failure.


I recommend reading this rigorously documented article in an internationally recognized think tank concerning facts about Abortion, because you clearly need to learn more on this topic:


I recommend you go back to post #1. 


FLRW
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It is estimated that 109 billion people have lived and died over the course of 192,000 years. Remember that humans are born to die.

sadolite
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Abortion ,  put quite simply,  is a product of first world advances in medical technology. Abortion was never safe before that.
zedvictor4
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@TWS1405
Clearly that life is human in origin.
See #67.

Have you any idea what life is?
TWS1405
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@zedvictor4
I've already stated what the basic biological criterion for life is, redundantly. 

A grass seed has nothing to do with this debate/discussion. 
TWS1405
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@Public-Choice
Yeah, tuck tail and run. 

That’s what I thought. 
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@Novice_II
To Novice_II and anyone else brave enough to debate on this subject, well???

Novice_II initiated the invitation days ago, and to date, crickets.

Anyone else???

One of my professors, a female, wrote a book about this subject and its safety. She autographed it for me once I graduated. I respect her well-educated position on abortion. I have yet to use/quote from her book for the very purpose of debating this subject of abortion.

So, any takers?
zedvictor4
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@TWS1405
A grass seed has nothing to do with this debate/discussion.

A grass seed is everything to do with highlighting hypocrisy.

And as I thought you have no idea what life actually is.

Neither do I by the way.

All that the above describes are some of the basic requirement of a living organism.

Extinguishing life in any organism, whether it be plant or animal is the same process. It's just that we dress it up with various verbiage to make it seem more or less palatable.

What I refer to as selective morality.
TWS1405
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@zedvictor4
Again, a grass seed has nothing to do with this debate/discussion. Though I do get where you’re going with that hypocrisy angle, as I agree; but pro lifers never get that salient point. So it’s a moot point to even bring up. 
FLRW
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A stillbirth is the death of a baby at or after the 20th week of pregnancy. Roughly 2.6 million babies worldwide are stillborn each year.
Isn't God showing us that life does not begin until first breath?

3RU7AL
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@zedvictor4
What I refer to as selective morality.
a mouse is 97.5% genetically identical to a human

does this mean that mice should be granted 97.5% human rights ?
sadolite
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The abortion debate has never been about when human life begins. Science answered that question long ago. Abortion is about when human rights begin. When life begins is "settled science." It begins at conception. The difficulty people have with the abortion debate is defending their arbitrary position of when human rights begin.

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@sadolite
Exactly, but as to the question of when life beginning being settled science; so is the question of when human rights begin, which is settled codified law. 
TWS1405
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When I attended PSU, I took a course under Professor Melody Rose. Even got her to sign this book.

Very intelligent.

Abortions ARE safe. 
zedvictor4
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@3RU7AL
Ask a vegan.


Rights is a variable concept.


And species identification is such that we differentiate.


And humans are such that they are selectively moral.


Because morality is also a variable concept.


Vegans don't give a dam about the rights of Quinoa seeds.
sadolite
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@TWS1405
"Abortion is settled codified law" Is it really? I wonder why all the states are debating it since the supreme court sent back to the states to decide.
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@sadolite
"Abortion is settled codified law" Is it really? I wonder why all the states are debating it since the supreme court sent back to the states to decide.
they basically gutted griswold v connecticut
TWS1405
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@sadolite
I said this, “so is the question of when human rights begin, which is settled codified law. ”

I did NOT say this,  “Abortion is settled codified law.”
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@TWS1405
Yes, I stand corrected, I always admit when I am proven wrong. Sooo when do human rights begin? Or is that not settled law or is it"
FLRW
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@sadolite
In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the foundation of human rights, the text and negotiating history of the "right to life" explicitly premises human rights on birth. Likewise, other international and regional human rights treaties, as drafted and/or subsequently interpreted, clearly reject claims that human rights should attach from conception or any time before birth. They also recognise that women's right to life and other human rights are at stake where restrictive abortion laws are in place. No one has the right to subordinate another in the way that unwanted pregnancy subordinates a woman by requiring her to risk her own health and life to save her own child. Thus, the long-standing insistence of women upon voluntary motherhood is a demand for minimal control over one's destiny as a human being. From a human rights perspective, to depart from voluntary motherhood would impose upon women an extreme form of discrimination and forced labour. This is in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the Inter-American Human Rights Agreements and African Charter on Human and People's Rights.
sadolite
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Um  The UN has no legal authority  and is not US law. I am talking about enforceable US law.  The UN and everyone in it  can go fuck themselves.