Title VII of 1964 & Transgender Employment Discrimination

Author: TWS1405

Posts

Total: 48
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
BACKGROUND:
"Aimee Stephens was a funeral home employee who had presented herself as male up until 2013. On July 31, 2013, she wrote to her employer, the Harris Funeral Homes group, so that they could be prepared for her decision to undergo gender reassignment surgery, telling them that after a vacation, she planned to return dressed in female attire that otherwise followed the employee handbook. She was fired shortly after the letter was sent, and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission helped to represent Stephens in court. The District Court ruled for the funeral homes, stating Title VII did not cover transgender people and that as a religious organization under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, the company had a right to dismiss Stephens for non-conformity. The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the decision, concluding Title VII did include protection for transgender people, which Harris Funeral Homes petitioned the Supreme Court to review. About a month before the Supreme Court decision, Stephens died from health complications. Representation of her case continued through her estate.
The case was heard on October 8, 2019, alongside two other cases, Bostock v. Clayton County and Altitude Express, Inc. v. Zarda which dealt with Title VII protection related to sexual orientation. The Court ruled in a 6–3 decision under Bostock but covering all three cases on June 15, 2020, that Title VII protection extends to gay and transgender people.
[2]"

PURPOSE OF RESEARCHING LEGISLATIVE HISTORY AND INTENT:

"Legislative intent is the term that the courts have given to their analysis of the historical documents originally generated when the statute in question was under consideration in the Legislature—state or Federal. Whenever the interpretation of a legislative enactment becomes an issue in a case, the courts will commonly resort to the Rules of Statutory Construction to determine the proper application of the statutory language to the facts at hand. "

"The Court determines the Legislature’s intention by examining the problem faced by the Legislature when it considered the bill that enacted the language in question, the public policy issues that the problem raised and the drafting solutions that emerged during legislative consideration of the bill."

LEGISLATING FROM THE BENCH:
The Supreme Court was founded in part to balance the executive and legislative branches of government, and it can help prevent the legislative branch from overstepping its legal obligations by measuring the laws they pass against the U.S. Constitution.

"For the Democrats, the courts have long been seen as a bulwark for liberal causes. But this presumption also appears vulnerable. If the courts weaken legal protections related to affirmative action, abortion, and civil liberties, the judiciary’s liberal allies may become alienated as well. In the context of this increased political pressure and scrutiny, being more articulate and clear-thinking about the acceptable contours of judicial power and the judiciary’s role, and the terms under which we can fairly criticize judges and justices, seems essential. To the extent we value a neutral, independent, and effective judiciary, further exploration of legislating from the bench can help us to examine the preconditions and limits of this efficacy."

JUDICIAL ACTIVISM:
"The practice in the judiciary of protecting or expanding individual rights through decisions that depart from established precedent or are independent of or in opposition to supposed constitutional or legislative intent."

TEXTUALIST JURISPRUDENCE:
"Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is primarily based on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law.[1]"

CASE INFORMATION VIA LEGAL INFORMATION INSTITUTE:

ISSUES:
Does Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibit discrimination against transgender individuals, either as a form of sex discrimination or as impermissible “sex stereotyping” under Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins?

MY ARGUMENT AGAINST THE RULING GIVEN BY GORSUCH:

Justice Gorsuch violated the intent and purpose of legislative history and likewise the rules of statutory construction when he evaluated the case of transgender Aimee Stephens. In effect, he legislated from the bench via judicial activism. He essentially created law where no law existed within the original crafting, intent and purpose of Title VII within the Civil Rights Act of 1964 where gender identity and sex stereotypes are concerned. 

The arguments presented by Stephens are patently illogical.

Stephens argued that Title VII "specifically" prohibited transgender discrimination [because] it barred employers from terminating their employees “because of [an] individual’s . . . sex.”  Stephens further argued that by terminating someone because they are not conforming with their employer’s view of how that person’s “biological sex” ought to present itself, the employer is using that person’s “sex” as it was determined at birth in order to purposely discriminate against them. 

When one looks at the legislative history of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, "specifically" Title VII, there is absolutely no language or debate involving transgender, gender identity and/or sexual orientation rights given the glaring fact that none were even an issue in 1964 where legal protections were concerned. Issues meaning neither was seen as apparent then as they theoretically are present-day where legal protections were necessarily needing addressed by said Act in 1964. 

The origins of gender identity did not appear to take a foothold in law until the early 1970s, which had more to do with hermaphroditism and transsexualism than actual transgenderism. 

The introduction of the dichotomy between anatomical sex and gender identity, then commonly referred to as the psychopathological condition of gender identity disorder, was not introduced into the APAs Diagnostic Statistical Manual until the Third version in 1980, 16 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

As such, there is absolutely no measure by which Stephen's argument that Title VII "specifically" prohibits transgender discrimination in employment, or any other area of employment law either. And what one's perception is of what another's sex "ought" to present themselves as is legally irrelevant. To argue such is to also argue how one "ought" to behave when employed, take for example lawfully vs unlawfully; kind or unkind; professionally or unprofessionally. Each measure is a commonsense expectation of behavior, and for a biological man to present himself as a man for nearly two decades as a man, only to one day abruptly claim they are not what they were born as and wish to live their personal fantasy as the opposite sex is a shock to commonsense and the laws governing fraud.

You apply as a man, are hired as a man, work as a man, conduct yourself as a man and then inform your employer you will be coming to work as a woman in appearance and wish to be treated as a biological woman is fraud under the law. An employer is not obligated to facilitate your fraudulent behavior. The Funeral Home had every legal right to terminate employment with Stephens. For Justice Gorsuch to find legal justification for acceptance of transgenderism in Title VII flies in the face of both legislative intent and unquestionably demonstrates judicial activism. 

Stephens then argues that should the Court exclude transgender discrimination from Title VII, it would add to the only codified exception to Title VII's protections. This exception being the bona fide occupational qualifications exception that HOOTERS prevailed in regarding being sued by male applicants denied employment as waiters. Hooters maintained it was on the right side of the law in asserting a “bona fide occupational qualification” based on the essence of its business model. Hooters states that the “Hooters Girl” is the foundation of its business. Which is precisely why Hooters is allowed to continue this business model. It is also another reason why we see no male centerfolds in Playboy, but rather that of Playgirl, and no female centerfolds in the latter magazine. 

Stephens continues to argue, and with emphasizes, that it mattered not if Congress understood Title VII to encompass transgender discrimination during its 1964 enactment having no bearing on how the Court should determine the statute’s meaning and application present day of that case. This inherently flies in the intent and purpose of the Court to include legislative history in the laws intent and purpose behind its creating and passing in correcting wrongs that have subsequently been made illegal. Ignoring that history of legislative intent and making up terms, intent and meaning of a historical law to fit a present-day issue far removed from the historical law is nothing but judicial activism (i.e., legislating from the bench). And that is EXACTLY what Justice Gorsuch did. 

This argument of Stephens is a patent false equivalency fallacy: "Stephens analogizes an employer’s decision to fire employees for their transgender status to the impermissible act of terminating employees because they changed religions." Religion is "specifically" referenced in Title VII, transgenderism is not. Therefore, there is no equal comparison, period. 

Sex stereotypes do not come into legal argument in this case either, despite the arguments Stephens made employing it. Stephens was born a man. He applied as a man. He was hired as a man. He worked as a man until such day without warning he informed the Funeral Home he wanted to be employed as a woman when in fact he is/was not a woman. That is an act of fraud, but also a change in employment terms that an employee has no authority to make. Only the employer can change terms of employment conditions, not an employee. Therefore, the funeral home terminating Stephens had nothing to do with a sex stereotype as he was not being discriminated as a biological female employee, but rather that of the obvious: a biological male employee making unrealistic expectations upon his employer to change the terms of his employment with the employer for which he had no legal authority to affect or force upon the employer. 

IMO, Justice Gorsuch legislated from the bench via judicial activism and read into Title VII that which was simply not there, nor supported by the legislative history, intent and purpose of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Prove me wrong. 
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
50 year old retired Army Military Police Investigator takes on the case of the Man in Panties. Grow up, you clown. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@badger
Embarrassing yourself once again, I see. Carry on. You will be ignored going forward; that is, until you address the topic at hand. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
A woman goes to work, wears heals, make up and a dress - and it’s okay.

If you’re suggesting that I can be fired for doing the same thing solely on the basis that I have a penis.

How this that not open and shut sex discrimination?


TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
Your idiocrasy never ceases to amaze me.

A woman goes to work, wears heals, make up and a dress - and it’s okay.

It's okay because she [is] a biological woman conforming with not only societal, cultural standards/expectations, but also the employers dress code which is permissible under the law (i.e., not illegal).

There is NO "sex discrimination" under the law that prohibits an employer from firing a longstanding male employee coming to work dressed as a woman unscientifically claiming to be a biological woman after having already been hired as a biological male employee. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
Your idiocrasy never ceases to amaze me.
I think you mean Idiocy. Idiocrasy means peculiar - like idiosyncratic.

It's okay because she [is] a biological woman conforming with not only societal, cultural but also the employers dress code.

There is NO "sex discrimination" under the law that prohibits an employer from firing a longstanding male employee coming to work dressed as a woman unscientifically claiming to be a biological woman after having already been hired as a biological male employee. 
If a long-standing male employee is fired for coming to work dressed as a woman - he is being fired because the company is negatively penalizing a man for doing something that is okay for woman. That is sex discrimination.

You may be okay with that discrimination; and think that the discrimination is acceptable - but it is still sex discrimination.

TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu

@TWS1405
Your idiocrasy never ceases to amaze me.
I think you mean Idiocy. Idiocrasy means peculiar - like idiosyncratic.

No, I meant what I said. I used it in the same form/reference is ideology. It just hasn't caught on yet. Either way, you understood you were in fact being an idiot. 

It's okay because she [is] a biological woman conforming with not only societal, cultural but also the employers dress code.

There is NO "sex discrimination" under the law that prohibits an employer from firing a longstanding male employee coming to work dressed as a woman unscientifically claiming to be a biological woman after having already been hired as a biological male employee. 
If a long-standing male employee is fired for coming to work dressed as a woman - he is being fired because the company is negatively penalizing a man for doing something that is okay for woman. That is sex discrimination.

You may be okay with that discrimination; and think that the discrimination is acceptable - but it is still sex discrimination.
And if you arrive to work dressed as Michael Myers every day...is that Halloween discrimination!?!  That's what it amounts to when a guy suddenly comes to work dressed as a woman and demands to be treated as a woman. Would you demand to be treated like a serial killer!?!

Your entire reasoning is a semantic argument that defies social, psychological, social-psychological, cultural and anthropological expectations of a sane society. 

Under the law, it is not, nor has it ever been sex discrimination until Gorsuch created new law via judicial activism (legal fiat) 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
No, I meant what I said. I used it in the same form/reference is ideology. It just hasn't caught on yet. Either way, you understood you were in fact being an idiot. 
Ahh you mean idiocracy. 

And if you arrive to work dressed as Michael Myers every day...is that Halloween discrimination!?!  That's what it amounts to when a guy suddenly comes to work dressed as a woman and demands to be treated as a woman. Would you demand to be treated like a serial killer!?!
You probably could call not being allows a halloween costume “halloween discrimination” - but given that it’s not covered by Title VII it would obviously not be illegal.

Your entire reasoning is a semantic argument that defies social, psychological, social-psychological, cultural and anthropological expectations of a sane society.
My reasoning is that not letting a man do something a woman can do is discriminating based on sex. Because it is.

“Social, psychological,social-psychological, cultural and Anthropological expectations of a sane society”

Feel free to share the portion of Title VII that includes the above as a legal exception to discrimination.


“Under the law, it is not, nor has it ever been sex discrimination until Gorsuch created new law via judicial activism (legal fiat)”

It’s covered by.

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

If men are subject to limited conditions of employment compared to woman , that’s illegal. If one sex is prevented from do something the other can - it’s illegal.


Why do even you care so much? I’ve worked with a transgender woman for a while - she was nice, had a strong work ethic, and her Genitalia or clothing has absolutely no impact on my life. This stands opposed to Simon - who was a backstabbing asshole, and other Kaylen who occasionally microwaved soup for 8 minutes at peak lunch break. They had a material impact on my life - yet no one is suggesting a fish microwaving ban - of objecting to that behaviour.

It’s literally being angry at people for absolutely no reason - out of sheer spite - I imagine that sort of pointless hate has to be eating you up inside.





TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
And if you arrive to work dressed as Michael Myers every day...is that Halloween discrimination!?!  That's what it amounts to when a guy suddenly comes to work dressed as a woman and demands to be treated as a woman. Would you demand to be treated like a serial killer!?!
You probably could call not being allows (sic) a halloween (sic) costume “halloween (sic) discrimination” - but given that it’s not covered by Title VII it would obviously not be illegal.


And men pretending to be women isn't covered by Title VII isn't covered either. 


Your entire reasoning is a semantic argument that defies social, psychological, social-psychological, cultural and anthropological expectations of a sane society.
My reasoning is that not letting a man do something a woman can do is discriminating based on sex. Because it is.

No, it is not. Hence the "bona fide occupational qualification" allowed by law. Idiot. 

“Social, psychological, social-psychological, cultural and Anthropological expectations of a sane society
 
Feel free to share the portion of Title VII that includes the above as a legal exception to discrimination.

Quoting out of context. 

The rest of your retort is illogical nonsense with ZERO legal founding. 

TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
Why do even you care so much? I’ve worked with a transgender woman for a while - she was nice, had a strong work ethic, and her Genitalia or clothing has absolutely no impact on my life. This stands opposed to Simon - who was a backstabbing asshole, and other Kaylen who occasionally microwaved soup for 8 minutes at peak lunch break. They had a material impact on my life - yet no one is suggesting a fish microwaving ban - of objecting to that behaviour.

It’s literally being angry at people for absolutely no reason - out of sheer spite - I imagine that sort of pointless hate has to be eating you up inside.

You should.

Being a man claiming to be a woman is just yet another afront to women by men claiming to be better than women.

Men have NO business claiming to be a woman, like "Lia" Thomas who sucked as a man at swimming just to prevail claiming he is a woman, case in point. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
And men pretending to be women isn't covered by Title VII isn't covered either. 
But it is. I explained why above.

I quoted the exact law.

I applied the specific parts of the law that applies

I explained how transgender discrimination meets the prohibited example described by the law.

Thus is illegal.

Your response was to. Wait. You stripped that entire part out of your reply. How odd!!!

Note: Just telling me I’m wrong over and over again doesn’t make me wrong 

No, it is not. Hence the "bona fide occupational qualification" allowed by law. Idiot.
Bone fide occupational qualification refers to cases where a business legitimately relies on a particular gender in a particular way - like strippers, or hooters.

It’s a recognized exception to cases where men and woman can be discriminated against but it’s ok due to gender being “a bona fide occupational qualification” for the job.

That there are legally recognized exceptions to discrimination does not mean treating people differently based on their gender isn’t normally discrimination.  It is.

Quoting out of context.

The rest of your retort is illogical nonsense with ZERO legal founding.
How exactly do you feel I quoted you out of context. I think the issue is that you don’t understand the context yourself.


You said:

Your entire reasoning is a semantic argument that defies social, psychological, social-psychological, cultural and anthropological expectations of a sane society.
My argument - to which you were responding - was that affording rights in the workplace to one gender but not another - is sex discrimination ; and thus illegal. You replied with the post above.

Given that this is a legal argument, based on the content of the law - the only reason any of the sh*t you said had any relevance - was if it’s relevant to the legality of the discrimination - IE: was relevant to the legalities of discrimination (for example - by being an exception written in title VII). 

Last time I checked, what you feel is the cultural expectations of a sane society has absolutely no relevance to the textuaist interpretation of discrimination law.

So I’m not quoting you out of context. I’m just using a question to point out the absurdity of including that objection in an argument that is inherently about what the law says.





Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
Being a man claiming to be a woman is just yet another afront to women by men claiming to be better than women.
Is there any specific examples of any transgender woman ever claiming or even implying to be better than woman in any way that has any actual material impact on woman at all?

What is the material effect, not hand waving, or vague statements.  

Please explain how any specific person in society 1 or society itself, is or would be harmed; by us all deciding not to give a sh*t about whether men want to identify as a woman.

I’ll brush over transgender men.

Men have NO business claiming to be a woman, like "Lia" Thomas who sucked as a man at swimming just to prevail claiming he is a woman, case in point. 
That’s your main objection? how to appropriately let transgender woman compete in sports?

If that’s your go-to #1 complaint then perfect! Let’s not give a sh*t about transgender men and women; let transgender men compete in male sports if they want - and we can try and work on some reasonable way to be physiologically fair in sports.

If that’s you’re only material objection - then you’re not particularly far away!
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@TWS1405
It's okay because she [is] a biological woman conforming with not only societal, cultural standards/expectations, but also the employers dress code which is permissible under the law (i.e., not illegal).
Is the transgender woman dressing in a way that would not comply with the employer's dress code for females? If they are dressing appropriately for the gender they want to present, then taking action against them would definitely be discrimination. It's pretty simple. If the transgender woman is coming to work in a bikini, then you have a different legal argument. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
Is the transgender woman dressing in a way that would not comply with the employer's dress code for females? If they are dressing appropriately for the gender they want to present, then taking action against them would definitely be discrimination. It's pretty simple. If the transgender woman is coming to work in a bikini, then you have a different legal argument. 

Look. A biological man is NOT a biological woman. The social, cultural, business etiquette and employment law operate on the former noted clear distinctions. A biological man simply cannot come to work expecting to be treated equally with that of a biological woman. Period. Fact. Period. 

There is absolutely NO sex discrimination involved in the case highlighted in the OP, nor in your fictional example either. 

TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
And men pretending to be women isn't covered by Title VII isn't covered either. 
But it is. I explained why above.

But it is NOT! Your explanation is pure liberal fictional BS that has no application in either the real world, or the real legal world. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
But it is NOT! Your explanation is pure liberal fictional BS that has no application in either the real world, or the real legal world. 
What an exceptional, well thought out argument 

“It’s not”:

Recall - my pesky, inconvenient post above:

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

If men are subject to specific limited conditions of employment compared to woman, that’s illegal.

The law explicitly says so.

Thus, if you are a man, and wear heals, make up, dress - and are generally presentable - then the TEXT of title VII prevents employers firing you, or discriminating against you - if that same behaviour would not get you fired if you didn’t have a penis. You would be being fired, and forced to adhere to different conditions of employment on the basis of your sex.

Plain as day - spelt out in the laws text - explicitly.

Open.
And.
Shut.


Are the employment conditions afforded to a woman different from that afforded to a man - if a man may not wear the same clothes? Indisputably yes.

Is the employee being fired , on the basis of those conditions that are applied to one sex but not the other? Indisputably yes.

If you answer yea to both those questions - which you must - because that’s clear and unambiguous reality - then that behaviour is illegal as per the text of title VII.

You may continue to baselessly assert how wrong I am for the next 8492 posts if you wish - you’re feelings do not change the text of Title VII.

TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
Recall - my pesky, inconvenient post above:

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;
A biological man being terminated for dressing like a woman has nothing to do with him being a woman (because he is not [a] biological woman), but everything to do with him being a biological man and not conforming to the terms of his employment when hired as a biological man. 

You have NO legal background. You lack the requisite education and knowledge to correctly read let alone interpret statutory law. 


TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
You may continue to baselessly assert how wrong I am for the next 8492 posts if you wish - you’re feelings do not change the text of Title VII.
And as I said above, you do not have the requisite academic, professional or other requisite knowledge and experience to correctly read, interpret and correctly apply statutory law.

You're understanding is 100% wrong. 

You have not proven me wrong. 


Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
A biological man being terminated for dressing like a woman has nothing to do with him being a woman  (because he is not [a] biological woman)

Correct. But as I’m not arguing that it is - this is largely irrelevant to what I’m saying; and is a hit of a straw man

but everything to do with him being a biological man and not conforming to the terms of his employment when hired as a biological man.

Bingo.

You nailed it. 

Get this man a cookie.

It has everything to do with him being a man, and being fired for not conforming to the terms of his employment. That’s my point - you said it. He’s being terminated for being a man - because he is subject to male specific terms of employment. You’re so close:

What are those terms. They’re terms that say that having a penis precludes you from doing these things: those terms are discriminatory.

Imagine white people had to wear white, black people had to wear black, Asian people had to where yellow - and a black man was fired for refusing to wear black - it’s an identical issue of discrimination - covered by title VII under the race provision. Imagine Christian’s had to wear a crucifix, atheists nothing, Jews a Star of David - of a Jew was fired for refusing to wear a star - discrimination on conditions of employment in the basis of religion. If I make men wear trousers and woman wear skirts - where is the title VII exception that allows for that? Exactly.

You have NO legal background. You lack the requisite education and knowledge to correctly read let alone interpret statutory law. 

There’s so many things I want to say here lol. 

Let me first ask you how you know this, exactly? For all you know, I could be a practicing lawyer. 

Even if I wasn’t - you started a thread in a debate website forum asking people to prove you wrong. What exactly were you expecting? Gorsuch to find out and argue with you personally?

Speaking of Gorsuch - he is a judge, for many decades who definitely does have the requisite education and knowledge to read and interpret statutory law - he agrees with me - does that mean you’re now willing to defer to what he says?

Given that I know your answer - that would appear to mean the level of one’s law education makes no difference to how right they are - and that you’re quote here is just nonsense ad-hominem that has no bearing in anything.. 


Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
And as I said above, you do not have the requisite academic, professional or other requisite knowledge and experience to correctly read, interpret and correctly apply statutory law.
And?
You're understanding is 100% wrong. 
How? I have laid out explicitly how this violates the law:

You have not proven me wrong. 

Yea I have:

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

Are the employment conditions afforded to a woman different from that afforded to a man - if a man may not wear the same clothes? Indisputably yes.

Is the employee being fired , on the basis of those conditions that are applied to one sex but not the other? Indisputably yes.

If you answer yea to both those questions - which you must - because that’s clear and unambiguous reality - then that behaviour is illegal as per the text of title VII.
I await your namecalling
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@TWS1405
Look. A biological man is NOT a biological woman. The social, cultural, business etiquette and employment law operate on the former noted clear distinctions. A biological man simply cannot come to work expecting to be treated equally with that of a biological woman. Period. Fact. Period. 
Employment law in no way functions on how anyone dresses, provided said dress is appropriate for the work environment. Period, fact, period. Why would it? It's been litigated and the text is really clear. You're making no argument at all, you're stamping your feet and having a baby meltdown about something you don't like or agree with, or something that makes you uncomfortable. What difference does anyone's personal style make in your life?

There is absolutely NO sex discrimination involved in the case highlighted in the OP, nor in your fictional example either. 
In my example? All I said was if a biological man comes to work in business appropriate women's clothes, there's literally nothing anyone can do or say about it without legal ramification. It's just dumb to think otherwise. Not even sure how this is a thing in the times we live in. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
Look. A biological man is NOT a biological woman. The social, cultural, business etiquette and employment law operate on the former noted clear distinctions. A biological man simply cannot come to work expecting to be treated equally with that of a biological woman. Period. Fact. Period. 
Employment law in no way functions on how anyone dresses, provided said dress is appropriate for the work environment. Period, fact, period. Why would it? It's been litigated and the text is really clear. You're making no argument at all, you're stamping your feet and having a baby meltdown about something you don't like or agree with, or something that makes you uncomfortable. What difference does anyone's personal style make in your life?
Oh yes it (dress codes & grooming standards) does!

Courts in the past have ruled in cases stating matter of fact that different grooming (including dress) requirements between men and women were permissible because they did not apply to immutable characteristics or otherwise protected interests, thus they did not fall within/under Title VII. 
~ Willingham v Macon Telegraph Publishing Co., 507 F.2d 1084 (5th Cir. 1975)

There is NO disparate treatment/impact upon an employer enforcing their dress code for a biological man and biological woman based on their company dress code. A biological man is expected to abide by the male dress code, as is a biological female being expected to abide by the female dress code. 

Stephens is a biological man. He is expected to abide by the male dress code. To do otherwise is a violation of that dress code and the employer is allowed to terminate his employment if the employee refuses to comply.

Hooters has a specific dress code for female waitresses and hiring standards for that position being female only. It is called a BFOQ, bona fide occupational qualification. 

I have made an argument and it is crystal clear. Neither you nor obviously Ramshutu has read the original post. That much is clear. 

Legal rights are a form of public policy and therefore regulation: they are a limit on personal freedom, not on the power of the state. Many legal rights are valuable and necessary in contemporary society. It is important to recognize the fact that legal rights are, functionally speaking, a form of public policy that controls social relationships. 

Others personal lifestyle choices being pushed upon a society that doesn't accept them is why people are against this politically correct coddling crap like this. Sooner or later, it changes the meaning of terms and laws without any scientific and/or legal basis. This case with Stephens is a perfect example. So is the gay marriage SCOTUS case. Both were clear cases of legislating from the bench via judicial activism. When new issues come up that are not covered under current law(s), then it is up to Congress to address it, not the Court. Congress needs to pass a new law covering the new issue bring raised, if it arises to such need to be addressed by law. Not the Court. When that doesn't happen and the Court does it without legal justification, it is bad codified law. Law that affects the entirety of society that simply does not agree with it and the ramifications that it will have upon them. That's why I and others care. 

There is absolutely NO sex discrimination involved in the case highlighted in the OP, nor in your fictional example either. 
In my example? All I said was if a biological man comes to work in business appropriate women's clothes, there's literally nothing anyone can do or say about it without legal ramification. It's just dumb to think otherwise. Not even sure how this is a thing in the times we live in. 

Yes, someone can say and do literally whatever they want as the employer who enforces the contract between them and the employee. Legal ramifications are not used unless the employee initiates it. Until then, the employer is within their legal right to enforce the dress code upon biological males expected to wear male clothing consistent with said code. 

It is a thing in the times we live in because it is an unacceptable change for society and the evolution of humanity. 

 Sex stereotypes are a thing and have been for quite some time. The legal terminology used is clear.
Black's Law Dictionary
Man: An adult male.
Female: An adult female. 
Sex: The sum of the peculiarities of structure and function that distinguish a male from a female organism
Sex discrimination: Discrimination based on gender, esp. women. The Supreme Court has established an intermediate-scrutiny standard of review for gender-based classifications, which must serve an important governmental interest and be substantially related to the achievement of that objective. 

Scientifically speaking, a man can never be a woman. Period, fact, period! So, all this crap about gender identity, transgenderism, claims of a third (or more) genders is all fictional and unsupported by fact-based science. Changes to our society and laws based on fiction is a very dangerous slippery slope. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
And as I said above, you do not have the requisite academic, professional or other requisite knowledge and experience to correctly read, interpret and correctly apply statutory law.
And?
You are ill-equipped to argue matters of law when you lack the requisite knowledge and experiences to correctly understand it let alone apply it.

You're understanding is 100% wrong. 
How? I have laid out explicitly how this violates the law:
Because you are not reading and comprehending it correctly.


You have not proven me wrong. 

Yea I have:
No, you have not. 


It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

Are the employment conditions afforded to a woman different from that afforded to a man - if a man may not wear the same clothes? Indisputably yes.

Is the employee being fired , on the basis of those conditions that are applied to one sex but not the other? Indisputably yes.

If you answer yea to both those questions - which you must - because that’s clear and unambiguous reality - then that behaviour is illegal as per the text of title VII.
I await your namecalling

Yes, the employment conditions are different based on gender roles and are allowed by law.
Yes, the employee is being fired for failing to adhere to the dress code of men. 
See my reply here: #22

The employer did no wrong. Had this case been decided 5, 10 or even 15 years ago he would have lost. But because the liberal pandering climate of today, Gorsuch created new law that was the sole responsibility of Congress, not the Court. The arguments Stephens made were groundless as noted in the original posting.  A posting you failed to read. Obviously. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
The employer may use the defense that the discrimination was based on a bona fide occupational qualification. Bona fide occupational qualifications are often used for safety reasons, such as imposing a mandatory retirement age for airline pilots and bus drivers. 

The court may grant bona fide occupational qualification in three circumstances: 
  1. The first circumstance is for privacy reasons. For instance, requiring at least one security hospital treatment assistant assigned to each psychiatric hospital ward to be the same gender as the ward’s patients was permissible as a bona fide occupational qualification. See: Jennings v. New York State Office of Mental Health, 977 F.2d 731 (2d Cir. 1992). 
  2. The second circumstance is for authenticity in the arts: for film, theater, and television. This is because the First Amendment overrides Title VII in artistic works where the qualification is integral to the story or artistic purpose.
  3. Last is if the bona fide occupational qualification relates to the normal operation or essence of the business. For example, the court considered a mandatory retirement age of 62 for corporate pilots a bona fide occupational qualification for safety reasons because of how the mental and physical functions necessary for a pilot’s performance begin breaking down after the age of 60. See: Rasberg v. Nationwide Life Insurance Company, 671 F.Supp. 494 (1987).
Customer satisfaction, or lack thereof, is insufficient to justify a BFOQ defense. For instance, customer preference for female flight attendants does not make femininity a BFOQ.
You can only discriminate on the grounds of sex and dress code if you meet any of the 3 elements above - specifically it is only a BFOQ if the discrimination is essential to the business being performed.

Like discriminating in the grounds of sex females for strippers, or to serve at Hooters.

BFOQ doesn’t apply just for regular dress or business scenarios in which females needing to wear a dress is not essential to the business - which it isn’t.


TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
You have NO legal background. You lack the requisite education and knowledge to correctly read let alone interpret statutory law. 

There’s so many things I want to say here lol. 

Let me first ask you how you know this, exactly? For all you know, I could be a practicing lawyer. 

Even if I wasn’t - you started a thread in a debate website forum asking people to prove you wrong. What exactly were you expecting? Gorsuch to find out and argue with you personally?

Speaking of Gorsuch - he is a judge, for many decades who definitely does have the requisite education and knowledge to read and interpret statutory law - he agrees with me - does that mean you’re now willing to defer to what he says?

Given that I know your answer - that would appear to mean the level of one’s law education makes no difference to how right they are - and that you’re quote here is just nonsense ad-hominem that has no bearing in anything.. 

Just because Gorsuch is a Justice doesn't make him right. He is wrong. Period. And I made that clear in the original post. He legislated from the bench (judicial activism) and did what Congress is supposed to do, create new laws that address new issues presented before them. Then the Court may balance those laws with the Constitution. 

The manner in which you respond to not only me, but others demonstrate a lack of legal expertise on any and all measurable levels. That's how I know.  What I said was not an ad hominem, it is truth. Truth does NOT = an ad hominem. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
BFOQ doesn’t apply just for regular dress or business scenarios in which females needing to wear a dress is not essential to the business - which it isn’t.
Stephens is not a female. He is required by the terms of his employment to appear in the clothing required of men as dictated by the employers dress code. 


TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
Was transgenderism a thing in 1964?

Were transgenders out there in the workforce forcing their lifestyle choice upon the world in the 60s? 

Nope.

Gorsuch defied his (their) responsibility to review legislative history, intent and purpose of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He ignored it and created a new sub definition of sex/gender to include transgenderism, which was not even a "thing" in 1964. 

It was and is (and remains so), the responsibility of Congress to enact new laws to cover new issues (that were never a part of the legislative history of past laws) that require the support and backing of law to protect those necessary to be protected by law. It is NOT the Court's role to create new laws. 
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
Let’s try this again: You seem to be arguing from Textualism. You even included a definition - all that matters is the ordinary meaning of the words at the time the law was written, and the legal text is all that matters - intent of the framers does not matter.


My argument is that the wording of the law precludes setting one rule for men, and another for woman. Firing a man, for doing something it is okay for a woman - is explicitly prohibited by the text of the law and common. Meaning.

C1: It is expressly illegal to fire someone of a given race/sex/religion for doing something that another race/sex/religion would not be fired for.

This has been my point from pretty much my first post, and I have responded using the explicit text of the law. 

None of your replies have utilized the laws actual text to invalidate my statementYou have actually gone out of your way not to quote or reference the law in question your arguments. You’ve chopped the text out of every reply 

Thus I can only conclude you concede C1. I fully expect you to protest - because of course you will - but if you cannot show how the text of the law doesn’t support the conclusion about - it’s just empty denial and your protests mean nothing.

We can also state:

C2If a woman wore a dress she would not be fired. If a man is fired for wearing a dress - it violates C1, and is thus illegal.

You haven’t actually directly challenged this point either by explaining how it doesn’t violate the text or C1. You have made three other forms of response:

You don’t know the law.

This is just a meaningless ad-hominem. No number of insults or questioning my education shows what I am saying is false. As such it can be dismissed as irrelevant.

“There is NO disparate treatment/impact upon an employer enforcing their dress code for a biological man and biological woman based on their company dress code.”

You offer no legal or textual basis for this base assertion. There is clearly disparate treatment as a man was fired for doing the exact same thing as a woman. 

One cannot subject different genders, races or religions to different rules : one cannot force blacks to use different washrooms even if those washrooms are identical. The text of Title VII does not allow for seperate but equal

Again, protest all you like; meaningless denials will be dismissed; by all means feel free to try and explain how disparate rules can be applied to different sexes according to the text of Title VII that doesn’t also legally justify segregation law.

(paraphrase) Having different rules for different sexes is okay for dress codes.

C1 and C2 - based on the text of the law, demonstrates that different rules for different sexes is illegal.

Using this argument as response, is arguing that different rules for different sexes is not illegal, because having different rules for different sexes is not illegal in this case. 

C3: asserting that having different rules for different dress codes is okay (or variations therein), in response to an argument that explains why it isn’t - is circular reasoning 

I have explained how the text of the law expressly prohibits it - you must now show that the text of the law expressly allows it (which you haven’t), or give textual justification for an exception

The exceptions you cited are BFOQ. The exception is, specifically:

“it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to hire and employ employees, for an employment agency to classify, or refer for employment any individual, for a labor organization to classify its membership or to classify or refer for employment any individual, or for an employer, labor organization, or joint labor­ management committee controlling apprenticeship or other training or retraining programs to admit or employ any individual in any such program, on the basis of his religion, sex, or national origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, or national origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or enterprise”

The text of this section explicitly states that you may discriminate who you hire for a position based upon sex - if that persons sex is what qualifies them for something reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that business.

As a result - if the sex of the person is not something reasonably necessary to the business - then the BFOQ exception does not apply. There is no aspect of a funeral home that requires an employee working in specific roles to be a woman - and thus BFOQ - given the text of the law cannot be applied.

As a result, your BFOQ objection is invalid. To show that BFOQ applies, you must that the business is demonstrably dependent on women in a particular role (it’s not) or b.) how the text above can be used to exempt dress codes (it can’t) You may, of course, protest and foot stamp - but without showing a or b, protests are simply empty denials and mean nothing.

The only other justification you have given for why having different rules for different sexes is okay - is based on a precedent you cited. 

Stating that a ruling exists that such discrimination is okay, is not a valid argument that it’s okay  - after all I can cite a higher ruling by a higher court that says it isn’t - for which I can legally justify with the statute text - but you will not accept that ruling. This is a clear double standard

You claim that Gorsuch can rule incorrectly, yet argue is if I must accept as fact the ruling of another judge as prima facia valid  - this is again, a clear double standard.

I would suggest that the ruling itself, which you attempted to justify, is wrong if you apply textualism. Not hiring someone for something that would be acceptable in another gender textually violates Title VII on the grounds of C1 and C2 above; which you have not managed to contest.

For these three reasons, this objection is invalid.

Let’s summarize 

Having one rule for men, another for women - and firing people on that basis is explicitly illegal by the text of title VII.

No matter how much you want to reshuffle your wording, change your phraseology - having a different dress code for men, and woman, is expressly having different sets rules for men, or for woman and constitutes termination on the basis of sex - and is explicitly illegal based on the text of title VII.

What the framers intended, how you feel about it, whether you think it’s reasonable, or socially acceptable, and whether this is against how the law has been used in the past - is all irrelevant. All that matters is the text of the law, and the original meaning of the words in it.

It is up to Congress to decide, and to amend the legislation if what the law says is not what congress meant.

Now - you may object, call me names, question my credentials, strenuously protest some point or another - but that would all be completely irrelevant too.

The only relevant responses you can make are:
  • Explain how the text of the law doesn’t support my conclusions.
  • Explain how the text of the law supports your claims.
  • Explain how the text of BFOQ offers an exception to dress codes.
  • Explain how your precedent better matches the text of the statute.

Without that - all you’re doing is protesting; and protesting that someone is wrong without an argument to support it- is meaningless.







Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TWS1405
Was transgenderism a thing in 1964?

Were transgenders out there in the workforce forcing their lifestyle choice upon the world in the 60s? 
From your OP:

Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is primarily based on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law.
You appear to be giving consideration to non-textual sources…..

Does textualism apply, or not?
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Ramshutu
TEXTUALIST JURISPRUDENCE:
"Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is primarily based on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law.[1]"

Ordinary meaning of the legal text... 

HMMMM!!!!  Man is a man. Woman is a woman. Pretty simple

Man dressing as a woman IS NOT a woman.

Woman dressing as a man IS NOT a man.