The Second Amendment - obsolete and in need of reform

Author: IwantRooseveltagain

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The Second Amendment reads as follows: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

From these words it should be clear that the original intent of the Second Amendment was to ensure that no State passed a law to prohibit the people from owning guns, because that would impede the ability of states to form and maintain militias for the purpose of defending the new country that the Constitution was creating. Because the United States didn’t have, and didn’t want at the time, a standing army (or navy) , militias - that is, well regulated militias, were needed to provide a defense against attack, invasion, and civil unrest. You’ll recall that President George Washington requested and led the militias sent by several states to put down the Whiskey Rebellion in western Pennsylvania.

The 2A was never about an individual right to own firearms for self defense or to defend against a tyrannical federal government. That idea was created out of thin air by the Supreme Court in the 2008 DC v. Heller decision. This decision was very ironic coming from the strict constructionist and textualist wing of the court. 

The 2A as written is firmly obsolete, much like the third amendment prohibiting the quartering of troops in peoples’ houses. The reason of course is that we don’t have well regulated militias anymore. We have standing armies (and a Navy and Air Force) that makes militias a thing of the past. To make matters worse, guns have become a scourge in America with their numbers exceeding the number of citizens, and were used in the death of nearly 50,000 Americans annually. That is according to the most recent data from the Center for Disease Control, which tracks the number of gun related deaths including suicides, which accounts for approximately half of all gun deaths in the country.

Perhaps even worse than the number of gun deaths in this country is the fact that guns are the leading cause of death for children in this country. More than car accidents, or drownings, illness or disease. That is a pretty high price to pay for a right that fundamentally doesn’t exist or offer much of a benefit to society. The ownership of weapons of war makes no sense even in the context of the recently invented right to self defense from the Heller decision. Nobody needs an assault weapon with a 30 round magazine to defend themselves or their homes. But the proliferation of these kinds of firearms has resulted in mass shootings becoming a common event in the United States in this century and resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people each year in completely random acts of violence.

The 2A needs to be amended, spelling out exactly what should be allowed and for what purpose. 
Greyparrot
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The only thing better than worm man is an unarmed worm man.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
How would you reform it if you had the power?
Polytheist-Witch
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Blah blah blah you hate guns, the second amendment should be banished cuz you hate guns, guns suck, people who have guns suck.Second amendment sucks, the Constitution sucks.
IwantRooseveltagain
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@thett3
The new 2A would allow for private gun ownership with the following restrictions:

All law abiding citizens and legal residents have the right to own conventional, non-military type firearms for self-defense, home defense, hunting, sport shooting and any other lawful purpose.

All handguns must be registered and have a serial number similar to automobiles because they are commonly used in crimes.

Gun owners must  pass a gun safety course and background check.

Guns may only be carried concealed and with a permit from local law enforcement and require extra training.

Military and Police style weapons are restricted for official use only such as law enforcement and the military.

No one may possess a detachable rifle magazine that can hold more than 5 rounds. For handguns, 10 rounds.

Laws for carry, storage, transport, etc shall be established by local government, but may not restrict or expand any of the rights above.
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Polytheist-Witch
Nope, I’m a former Marine officer and expert shooter who owns several guns starting when I was a boy and enjoys hunting and target shooting. I’ve also had a conceal carry permit. I’m just a sensible adult who doesn’t have a gun fetish. This website is for intellectuals. You appear to be in the wrong place.
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@Greyparrot
It is reasonable to suggest that a worm man might not have arms.

I suppose a lot depends upon the genetics of the chimera.

Dominant arm genes or not, as it were.

It might just be a brownish red, slithery about thing with a human head and brain.


Though for sure, the second amendment is a tad out of date.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
So you're a hypocrite. It's okay for you to have guns but no one else. POS.

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@IwantRooseveltagain
 This website is for intellectuals. You appear to be in the wrong place.
Actually, it is for both Intelligent Man and Worm Man.   Fortunately you are Intelligent Man.
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All law abiding citizens and legal residents have the right to own conventional, non-military type firearms for self-defense, home defense, hunting, sport shooting and any other lawful purpose.
So non law-abiding non-citizens will have free access to whatever gun they want. OK 
This already exists.

All handguns must be registered and have a serial number similar to automobiles because they are commonly used in crimes.
Automobiles have a serial number because they are commonly involved in crimes ? And here I was thinking it was about theft of private property and safety.

Gun owners must  pass a gun safety course and background check.
Already do.

Guns may only be carried concealed and with a permit from local law enforcement and require extra training.
Already exists.

Military and Police style weapons are restricted for official use only such as law enforcement and the military.
Fine, if police can only use exclusive weapons that ordinary people cannot use, then all police need to stop using handguns. Otherwise, the people won't know what's a "police style weapon"

No one may possess a detachable rifle magazine that can hold more than 5 rounds. For handguns, 10 rounds.
These seem like arbitrary numbers.
Magazine restrictions already exist.

Laws for carry, storage, transport, etc shall be established by local government, but may not restrict or expand any of the rights above.
This already exists.

So basically you like the status quo with the possible exception of making a separate class of weapons for police.


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@Greyparrot
So non law-abiding non-citizens will have free access to whatever gun they want. OK 
This already exists.

*No, convicted felons will not be able to legally obtain a gun. So you believe convicted felons can walk in to any gun store and buy a firearm?

Automobiles have a serial number because they are commonly involved in crimes ? And here I was thinking it was about theft of private property and safety.

*You think we have license plates on cars to prevent them from being stolen? 

Already do. (Require training and background checks) 

*Um no.  In many instances people buy guns without any training  whatsoever and acquire guns without a background check.

Already exists. (Permits required for conceal carry)

*Again, No. You really need to start reading newspapers. Some states have recently authorized conceal carry without permits or training.

Fine, if police can only use exclusive weapons that ordinary people cannot use, then all police need to stop using handguns. Otherwise, the people won't know what's a "police style weapon”

*That’s really dumb

These seem like arbitrary numbers.
Magazine restrictions already exist.

*Seems arbitrary? No, just reasonable. Which states have magazine restrictions? What Federal magazine restrictions exist?

So basically you like the status quo with the possible exception of making a separate class of weapons for police.

*Ya, I’m all for the status quo genius.



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@IwantRooseveltagain
No one may possess a detachable rifle magazine that can hold more than 5 rounds. For handguns, 10 rounds.
I agree with most of your suggestions. Allowing untrained civilians to 'Constitutionally carry' is a bad idea. I was curious about your reasoning for different limitations for handgun and rifle though. What's that about?
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@Greyparrot
Considering the amendment that he's arguing about has to do with the common man being able to repel a tyrannical government the fact that he wants the police to have special weapons means he wants the police to be able to kill the average citizen when the government tells him he needs to. That's a Marine.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Exactly. So when a policeman violates the constitution, the fight will be over much more quickly.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
From these words it should be clear that the original intent of the Second Amendment...
No, it is not clear that that was the original intent of the 2A. 

You clearly lack the proper education and understanding of the legislative history, intent and purpose of the 2A. 

The framers and the new citizens of America just won a war against the Crown in defending its own freedom and independence in establishing America's sovereignty from another foreign power. More than that, given the experiences of those who fought for that freedom, they learned from history that to be powerless against such a monarchy as that which they broke from, they could be subjugated to another again if they did not learn from that history. As such, the 2A was written to protect the citizenry from any potential future encroaching government that would treat them as the monarchy did from which they broke from.

More than that, in order to form a militia for the very purpose history proved effective, citizens needed to be in possession of their own arms. Before and at the time the 2A was drafted, it was already proven effective to establish an [already armed] militia, a state needs armed live bodies to do so. Without those bodies, already armed, they would have no militia. So, self-defense (either from local or rogue Indian raids, criminals, gangs, etc.) was directly and implicitly implied within the language of the amendment: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms..."
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@SkepticalOne
Good question. Rifles are a more powerful weapon due to its higher muzzle velocity. A pistol has a mv of approximately 1000 fps. An AR-15 has a mv of 3300 fps. A bullet from an AR-15 can rip through walls, doors, automobiles, even bullet proof vests. That’s why they need to have more restrictions on magazine capacity. Magazine capacity is mainly a concern for detachable type magazines. I would not object to a rifle such as a lever action Winchester 30-30 that had an internal magazine that exceeded 5 rounds. It’s a concern about firepower and what would be considered non-military by a reasonable person.
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@Polytheist-Witch
It wasn’t for a common man, the 2A right was for a well trained (regulated) militia man. We don’t have those in this country anymore.

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@IwantRooseveltagain
And yet more people die every year by handguns than rifles of any kind, as well as by hands, fists and feet than rifles of any kinds as well.
Hell, more die from blunt and stabbing objects, as well as shotguns than rifles of any kind every year too. So why such the focus on rifles when they are used so little compared to personal, blunt and stabbing objects and shotguns????
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Where in the 2A does it denote the militia was "well trained"?

"the 2A right was for a well trained (regulated) militia man."

That is not what "regulated" means. 


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@Greyparrot
I thought all you whack job, Trumpers were pro law enforcement. Oh, except the ones at the Capital. I know gun nuts all have fantasies about rescuing a woman from a motorcycle gang or saving the country from tyranny, but that’s not gonna happen. More likely you’ll get depressed after a divorce or losing your job and you’ll  take your gun and kill a bunch of people, perhaps your boss and some co-workers or you will simply commit suicide. That’s much more likely. Half of all gun deaths each year are suicides - about 24,000.
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@TWS1405
Ya, that is exactly what it meant when written by the Founders.
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@TWS1405
Ok genius, are you suggesting the government outlaw blunt objects? Have you ever read about a mass killing with a stabbing object? How about you and I square off - I’ll use a rifle and you can have a big knife. Who do you think will be killed?
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@TWS1405
Are you aware that 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
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@TWS1405
In 1789, a militia was not a self-appointed force of citizens in camo running around in the woods by themselves.  Militias would be raised by each state government, their loyalty and devotion to the new American republic was assured by the fact that they would be defending their families, their neighbors, and their homes.  Because they might someday have to operate as a combined force, the militias were to be “well-regulated”—meaning trained to standards set by the federal government.  
There is a myth—or misconception—that the right to bear arms was a guarantee of individual gun ownership.  The Supreme Court didn’t adopt that interpretation until a 5-4 opinion in 2008—219 years after the adoption of the Constitution!

- From the Pell Center for International Relations and Public Policy
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ya, that is exactly what it meant when written by the Founders.
What meant what? Quoting in context or at least adding additional info to your retort helps the understanding of the one you are replying to, as well as those reading.

Ok genius, are you suggesting the government outlaw blunt objects? Have you ever read about a mass killing with a stabbing object? How about you and I square off - I’ll use a rifle and you can have a big knife. Who do you think will be killed?
Do not be a dumbass. Outlaw blunt objects.  JFC. Grow up.




Are you aware that 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
Nope. Just not true. Completely delusional. 

I noticed how convenient it has been for you to completely disregard other factual rebuttals I made against your initial assertion on the 2A. Cherry-picking what you "think" you can rebut. 
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@IwantRooseveltagain
I thought all you whack job, Trumpers were pro law enforcement.
Guess I'm a whack job anti-Trumper who is also for individual protection from tyrannical police officers who violate the constitution.

Too bad for the anti-constitution whackjobs I am not alone.
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@TWS1405
Did you see the Pell Center definition of “a well regulated militia”? Who are you relying on for your interpretation of the Second Amendment - The National Rifle Association?

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@IwantRooseveltagain
219 years after the fact???? Pell center holds no weight for me. 

Doesn't hold much water, now does it. 

Regardless, training is an after-the-fact reality and NOT before-the-fact. As such, one must own weapons of self-defense before joining a militia. 

I am a constitutionalist and educated in matters of various aspects of the law, both academically and professionally. 

More than familiar with legislative historical intent, purpose and application of the laws application. Are you?
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@Greyparrot
So you get pulled over by a tyrannical police officer and he commences to violate your constitutional rights. You, being the genius that you are, pull out the AR-15 you had hidden in your glove compartment and show him what it means to be a patriot, and you blow him away. Ya, that’s going to happen.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
"So you get pulled over by a tyrannical police officer and he commences to violate your constitutional rights. You, being the genius that you are, pull out the AR-15 you had hidden in your glove compartment and show him what it means to be a patriot, and you blow him away. Ya, that’s going to happen."

This entire retort shows just how ignorant you are of the topic at hand.