AFRIKA FIRST

Author: 3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 60
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
"humanitarian aid" will now be stripped from nations who refuse to tacitly support "the war in ukraine"

good luck finding this story on cnn or fox or nbc

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11

good luck finding this story on cnn or fox or nbc
  • ah, the battle cry of every conspiracy theorist
"humanitarian aid" will now be stripped from nations who refuse to tacitly support "the war in ukraine"
  • This is false.  The reason you won't find this story on CNN or NBC is because there is no truth to this statement.
  • You cite for evidence comedian Jimmy Dore's show. 
    • This show has rock-bottom reputation for truth telling, promoting many, many conspiracy theories such as
      • Syria's use of chemical weapons was a false flag operation
      • The murder of Seth Rich was a DNC conspiracy
      • Joe Biden hosted a party in black face
      • etc.
    • Dore demonstrates at the beginning of the podcast that he has never heard of Eritrea, but now he's going to instruct us on Ethiopian politics.  You should have stopped listening right there.
    • Nevertheless, Dore's show does not support your claim, which I assume you invented from whole cloth
      • Dore cites a Devex article which is fairly good journalism from a pro-developmental aid point of view
        • Here's that article:
          • https://www.devex.com/news/exclusive-internal-report-shows-eu-fears-losing-africa-over-ukraine-10369
            • Here's the opening graph Dore cites:
              • "With Europe and Africa increasingly split over the war in Ukraine, European diplomats have argued in a confidential report for a more “transactional” approach to foreign aid that would tie funding for African countries to their willingness to work “based on common values and a joint vision.
              • Some EU diplomats  suggest in one behind the scenes memo that some foreign aid should be linked to common values is a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, fucking way from "humanitarian aid will now be stripped"
                • Why made you tell this lie?
            • YESTERDAY, the same day that Dore's show broadcast, the US gave Ethiopia $488 million in new humanitarian aid to Ethiopia.  NBC and CNN did report this story, your podcast simply ignored the most salient news on the subject and for some unknown reason, you are claiming the opposite of what's true.
    • All of that bullshit aside, I certainly hope that when my State Department gives my taxpayer's money to foreign countries, that they tie that money to a whole fucking lot of support of American issues.  If you are pro-Democracy or pro-Capitalism,  then you want Russia's invasion of Europe to fail as quickly as possible and the dictator Putin's regime to collapse as quickly as possible.  The future good health of the US and Europe depend on Ukraine winning this war.   Countries who do not come to the aid of Europe when she is invaded have no reasonable expectation much less cause for outraged demand for free shit from Europe or the US.





Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,973
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Lol, Ukraine was and is neither democratic nor capitalist.


But it's not the 1st time dumbass Democrats got involved in a world war supporting a corrupt nation. Won't be the last.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
lol that is funny, forcing nations to support ukraine. This is woke culture on foreign policy.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,973
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Meanwhile, Biden is hard at work starting another front on the global war to distract from the Democrat's naked power grab.

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
Lol, Ukraine was and is neither democratic nor capitalist.


But it's not the 1st time dumbass Democrats got involved in a world war supporting a corrupt nation. Won't be the last.

lol, Greyparrot is so careless in his research that he fails to notice that his source totally undermines GP's personal devotion to Putin's dictatorship.

Dr. Marek Dabrowski is a Non-Resident Scholar at Bruegel, Professor at the Higher School of Economics in Moscow, co-founder and Fellow at CASE - Center for Social and Economic Research in Warsaw and Member of the Scientific Council of the E.T. Gaidar Institute for Economic Policy in Moscow.

GP cites a five year old article that places the lion's share of the blame for corruption on Putin's puppet presidents, Yanukovich in particular.  Dabrowski looks forward to the 2018-19 election cycle and the opportunities to vote in a anti-Russian, anti-oligarch reform government like Zelensky's.  It is precisely Zelensky's success at reforming corruption and oligarchy that compelled Putin to try to overthrow that government.

Here's a 2020 paper  by Dabrowski noting Ukraine's substantial economic reforms since ousting Putin's oligarchs:

Given Dabrowski's residency in Moscow, his recent participation in debates and publication of papers supporting Ukraine's entry into the European Union are fairly characterized  as courageous.



oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Dr.Franklin
lol that is funny, forcing nations to support ukraine. This is woke culture on foreign policy.
who is doing that, Dr.Franklin?  

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->@Dr.Franklin
Meanwhile, Biden is hard at work starting another front on the global war to distract from the Democrat's naked power grab.

TRANSLATION from RUSSIAN:  Quick! Change the subject!

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
  • "With Europe and Africa increasingly split over the war in Ukraine, European diplomats have argued in a confidential report for a more “transactional” approach to foreign aid that would tie funding for African countries to their willingness to work “based on common values and a joint vision.
  • Some EU diplomats  suggest in one behind the scenes memo that some foreign aid should be linked to common values is a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, fucking way from "humanitarian aid will now be stripped"
    • Why made you tell this lie?
it is clearly the logical implication of "a more transactional approach to foreign aid"

i guess this don't seem even slightly concerning to you
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
But it's not the 1st time dumbass Democrats got involved in a world war supporting a corrupt nation. Won't be the last.
What nation is free from corruption?   White supremacist dictatorships like Putin's codify their corruption.  Democracies check corruption with renewed opportunities to reform.  Ukraine after voting in Zelensky is objectively less corrupt than any point since independence.  That is why Russia wants Zelensky dead- a democratic and free Ukraine- one that charges Russia free market prices for grain and free market rents for pipelines is destructive to Putin's supremacy.

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
it is clearly the logical implication of "a more transactional approach to foreign aid"

So, to your thinking, any confidential memo by any diplomat "logically implies" a policy in current effect?  That is, when a confidential State Dept. memo recommends purchasing Greenland from Denmark, you feel that the only logical and honest interpretation is that the US now owns Greenland?

i guess this don't seem even slightly concerning to you
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?  That when the US gives Ethiopia $488 million dollars that there should be no strings attached or advantage to US citizens?  Why?  I know we're coming off of 4 years of Trump administration but I nevertheless expect my government to always and exclusively act to the advantage of my nation, and to the disadvantage of nations that oppose American interests.



3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
What nation is free from corruption?
Singapore has again made it to the top ranks of the least corrupt countries in the world based on a global survey released annually.

The Republic along with Finland, Switzerland and Sweden scored 85 points each, tying for third place in the 2020 Corruption Perceptions Index released by the global anti-graft movement, Transparency International (TI), on Thursday (Jan 28).

Denmark and New Zealand earned 88 points each to tie for top spot among the 180 countries and territories surveyed. [**]
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?
holy crap, are you kidding me ?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,973
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Singapore has again made it to the top ranks of the least corrupt countries in the world based on a global survey released annually.

The Republic along with Finland, Switzerland and Sweden scored 85 points each, tying for third place in the 2020 Corruption Perceptions Index released by the global anti-graft movement, Transparency International (TI), on Thursday (Jan 28).

This is probably why Democrats don't give foreign aid to them lol....no corrupt people to purchase.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
This is probably why [the united states government] don't give foreign aid to them lol....no corrupt people to purchase.
bingo
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
African countries have come out strongly to condemn Ukraine's call for African fighters to join the "international legion" against the Russian invasion.

Analysts say the African Union (AU) is unlikely to offer Ukraine much support against Russia despite a passionate address Monday

Russia's war in Ukraine threatens both global and African food security, as Russia and Ukraine are essential grain exporters to the continent.

European diplomats are reportedly pressuring African Union members to take a stand in support of Ukraine, while top U.S. diplomats

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
meanwhile,

1 hour ago · NEW DELHI: India is set to get more channels to buy cheap Russian oil, with a new wave of smaller, international traders muscling into its vast market by offering barrels shunned by rivals after the invasion of Ukraine. State-run refiners such as Indian Oil Corp are warming to the idea of buying from the lesser-known traders. [**]
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
also,

India negotiated with Russia and is buying cheap oil when India has a strategic alliance with the United States. But the US got angry with us," Imran Khan said [**]
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
What nation is free from corruption?
Singapore has again made it to the top ranks of the least corrupt countries in the world based on a global survey released annually.
Exactly my point. 
  • Even the top ranked nations only score 85/100 on corruption.
  • You are citing Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index.  TI is a German non-profit founded by ex-World Bank executives that is funded by donations from large International Conglomerates- Google, Exon, Pepsi, etc.  The CPI is based on interviews with top executives of those large conglomerates asking how easy is it for them to do business in that country, do they have to pay many bribes, fees, taxes, etc?  An economy based on child prostitution will not negatively impact your TI CPI  rating but pissing off Exon or Pepsi will.
    • Although I'd argue that Transparency International has its uses as an EU economic thinktank, the non-profit has its own transparency problems- for example, one executive was caught on wiretap conspiring with Brazil's Chief Prosecutor to manufacture false corruption claims against the Worker's Party candidate  Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.
    • TICPI dis-accredited the US chapter in 2017 for being way too blatantly on the take.
  • TICPI is not some kind of systematic analysis of corruption in a state, rather it a summary of what mostly old, mostly white corporate executives think of doing business in that state.  Which is not to say TI's analysis is not sometimes a  useful benchmark- just extremely biased towards corporate thinking.
Singapore is a perfect case study for my point. 

  • Singapore claims to be a Democratic Republic that just happens to always re-elect People's Action Party to majority power, with never less than 60% of the vote, every year since the nation's founding in 1959.  That majority just happens to always re-elect the nation's founder or his eldest son to Prime Minister for 50 out Singapore's 63 years (and of course, maintain executive control in the interim a la Medvedev-Putin).  The current President was elected in 2017 running unopposed after all other candidates were disqualified for being of the wrong race or political party. 
    • Of course, freedom of assembly is guaranteed by the Singapore constitution, just limited to 5 or less people outdoors.  Sure, you can have a pickup basketball game in Singapore, just stop by the local police station and get your paperwork stamped first.
    • Of course, freedom of speech in guaranteed by the Singapore constitution, just limited to the  heavily monitored "Speaker's Corner" (no microphones, signs, banners, obscenity, etc.  permitted) with 30 days prior notice to police.  Failure to follow these rules is always met with at least a $2000 fine because anybody who receives a $2000 fine is disqualified from political office.  Attempts to parade or picket any corporate or governmental facility will be met with swift beatings by police.  Top officials in Singapore rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars in settlements by suing  for defamation (in Singaporean courts)  any corporation  doing business in Singapore that  gets caught referring to the Singaporean govt. as an autocracy, monarchy, or even "political dynasty"
    • Of course, freedom of the press is guaranteed by the Singapore constitution, you just need to get govt approval before starting any newspaper, website, blog, etc.  The Govt owns all television and radio stations in Singapore.  Singapore has substantially improved its censorship in recent years- instead of outright banning pornographic content such as the Simpsons or Zoolander, the government now edits out any political, religious, or sexual content.  You can now watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Glee in Singapore, it's just that all the references to gay stuff has been removed.  Most references to Socialism, Communism, unions, etc are considered unacceptable political content and censored.    Really outrageous blasphemy like The Last Temptation of Christ or Monty Python's Life of Brian is still  outlawed.
In other words, the World Bank's notion of what makes a country corrupt and a citizen in a liberal democracy's notion of what makes a country corrupt are quite likely different concepts.  Singapore, Switzerland, etc. knows how to keep Exon, Pepsi, etc. executives happy and so they enjoy high CPI ratings.

My assertion that there is no such thing as a nation without corruption stands.






oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?
holy crap, are you kidding me ?
holy crap, are you dodging a direct question by asking a question I have already answered?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL

Thanks, this article effectively demonstrates the falsity of both of your OP claims:

  • No humanitarian aid to any nation had been stripped.  No articles are reporting as much and you simply invented this lie for some unknown reason.
  • Mainstream media is actively reporting on diplomatic pressure campaigns in Africa in spite of your claim that they are not.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
You are citing Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index.
you seem obsessed with the genetic fallacy

the conversation isn't about this specific source

if you have a "more trusted" source you personally prefer, please use their list instead

the point here is that some countries are "less corrupt" than others

and the united states isn't even in the top ten

and neither is ukraine
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
holy crap, are you dodging a direct question by asking a question I have already answered?
it's not a dodge if the answer is OBVIOUS
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
Thanks, this article effectively demonstrates the falsity of both of your OP claims:

  • No humanitarian aid to any nation had been stripped.  No articles are reporting as much and you simply invented this lie for some unknown reason.
  • Mainstream media is actively reporting on diplomatic pressure campaigns in Africa in spite of your claim that they are not.
it is a logical extension of the leaked threat that you referenced in your first reply, clearly meant as an ice-breaker

Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?  That when the US gives Ethiopia $488 million dollars that there should be no strings attached or advantage to US citizens?  Why?
this is exactly the attitude i was looking for

FOREIGEN AID = BRIBES
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
You are citing Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index.
you seem obsessed with the genetic fallacy
and you remain patently ignorant regarding the nature of logical fallacy.

"The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content."

I said no nation is free of corruption.

You disagreed, relying on the ITCPI without citation or understanding  of what data informs that index.  

That is, the genetic fallacy is yours for reliance on a source without researching that source or connecting that data to topic.

I demonstrated a researched opinion regarding the validity of your source and explained why its not particularly enlightening regarding real corruption.
That is the opposite of genetic fallacy, that is connecting information to thesis in a very relevant way.  I then took the first of your examples of perfect incorruptibility and eviscerated it with actual facts, bolstering my claim that no nation is without corrupt to which example you have made no reply.

the point here is that some countries are "less corrupt" than others
False.  I said no nation is free of corruption.  You countered with a list of nations with high ITCPI rankings.  I demonstrated how your remark has no bearing on my claim.  Now you retreat to truism.  Obviously, "some countries are less corrupt than others" in no way refutes "No nation is free of corruption"  I said no X is Y.
Your first post implied some X is Y.  Now you irrelevantly retreat to some X is Z.  "free of corruption" =/= "less corruption than others."

To circle back to GP's argument that Ukraine is too corrupt to support in a war against Russia, your choice of corruption information, TICPI ,consistently ranks Ukraine higher than Russia in terms of corruption, while still ranking Ukraine lowest in Europe.

Your OP claims, that

  • humanitarian aid is now stripped from African countries and
  • you won't find that story on cnn or nbc 
both still stand  proved as falsehoods of your design.









Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,973
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Putin is the modern Emanuel Goldstein. A fabricated enemy to keep corruption in power in America.

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
Please answer this question as directly as you are able:

Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11

it is a logical extension of the leaked threat that you referenced in your first reply, clearly meant as an ice-breaker
False, as disproved by my US purchases Greenland example to which you have made no reply.

FOREIGEN AID = BRIBES
Yes.  All foreign aid is essentially legal bribery.  Egypt was the primary recipient of US aid for 30 years not because the US loves Muslim autocracies but as the cheapest, least violent method of preventing war with Israel, keeping ME oil flowing and the Suez open for commercial shipping.

If you think it should be otherwise, you have failed to state that opinion with any clarity.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,973
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
As a spokes-fibber from the Administrative Ministry of Hysteria explained: “It is absolutely vital that we ensure nobody starts hating the true oppressors or blaming our woes on the people who actually caused them because there is no room for that kind of extremism in this wonderful democratic oligarchy of ours, where every citizen and illegal invader is guaranteed the right to vote futilely for the people we select to ignore them. Thus popular hate-figures provide a valuable service and guarantee the survival of government as we know it.