Rome and America

Author: Dr.Franklin

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If you study Rome you can quickly realize that the parallels to America are uncanny. 

Rome was founded semi-mythically with grand stories. Now, America doesn't have founding myths per se, but it's grand stories of exploration into the new world is more than enough to grant itself a central founding ethos, one that establishes the country as a "shining city on a hill" created on the chosen land by the chosen people. Which is exactly what the puritans believed. Even today, Christian sects that originated in America continue to say that the country is "God's country", thinking that it is ordained for a special mission. Rome also became a hotbed of expelled religious groups, criminals, and others. America also experienced the same phenomenon.

And then, Rome overthrew their monarchy. The Senate was established, and the patrician elite ascended to power. Obviously, America did the same, and even the founding fathers and English Whigs recognize this connection. The OG Brutus who was mostly involved in the overthrow became a hero in English and American circles that were in favor of the '76 revolution. Publius, another aristocrat involved in the Roman revolution was invoked by the founding fathers and used as a pen name by the Federalists.

But of course, the republic of Rome didn't last. It expanded it's territory, but became hopelessly divided. The patricians had to compromise over and over again with the plebeians, but over time a two-sided divide became clear: The Optimates, which held the senate in high regard, and the Populares, which represented the non-traditional aristocracy class-notably the military and the new rich.

However, it is important to note that the populares were never a coordinated group unlike the optimate oligarchy. They simply relied on other means of political power than the senate. But it is clear that they were two distinct populare groups: reformers and reactionaries. Reformers include figures like Vicellinus, Cassius, and the Graccchi brothers. All 4 were executed, and the Optimate supremacy stayed. 

On the other hand, reactionaries rejected Optimate power and regarded it as corrupted and morally evil. They focused on the influence of the army and the religion. The most well-known and by far successful of these reactionaries were Augustus. He destroyed the traditional Optimate power, curbed the senate, and established the empire. But, he did it under a veil of reactionary patriotism (He was the first citizen). He promoted the traditional values of "chastity, monogamy, piety" that formed the basis of the roman founding centuries prior, made divorce harder, and went to war with mark Anthony on the basis that he was a foreign traitor that had an affair with his wife. If you pay attention, this seems like pretty right-wing stuff, which is the basis for my next point.

In America, we also have a government that is also hopelessly corrupt, divided, and opposed by the vast majority of Americans. There is CERTAINLY a moral absence among the population. And even the unpopular and costly wars in Spain spearheaded by the optimates are similar to the never-ending ME wars facilitated by the MIC. So, naturally America has responded in the same fashion-Reformers(leftists) have come and gone, some have been successful, but even still they aren't close to debilitating the powerful elite that continues to rule the country. It's obvious that the two-sided GOP-DEM divide is bullshit, as both sides protect their pockets above all else. But, the most interesting aspect comes from the reactionary side-the right.

Donald Trump was one of the first reactionaries we have seen-promising to return the power of America. But he isn't even close to reaching the prowess of Augustus. So, I do believe that over time the right will begin to lose faith in the current system of American government, and new tools will be available to them. The January 6th attack is one example of this-The congressional building used to be immortalized in the ethos of America-and yet all it took was one glaring stolen election for the right to completely let go of these preconceived notions. The police was also immortalized in American society and especially conservative circles, but they FINALLY realized that the police will be the ones who take the guns(as well as the shitshow in Ulvade) to recognize that the police are not a respectable institution. I believe that more and more dominoes will fall, and that previously untouchable facets of American culture will begin to be rejected in favor of archaeon reactionary beliefs. Augustus was great as a statesman, but he was also ruthless, cunning, and bloody-best exemplified in his conquest of Egypt that drove MA and Cleopatra to suicide. He didn't romanticize his role, he got the job fucking done. He was also unapologetically reactionary and socially conservative. He defiled anyone who didn't have children, and made divorce harder. He also held the religion in high regard, and became one of the most central figures in it.(son of apollo) This is something that we haven't found yet in the right-someone who doesn't shift the overton window to please the left, nor have we found someone who recognized the central issues that America is facing socially: porn, suicide, delayed marriages, fewer children, worsening economic situation, etc.

That is my historical analysis of it anyway. And there are PLENTLY of more examples of this throughout history. The whole notion of a "strongman ruler destroys a oligarchical elite" is found in every nation's history, well except in America's. But with the current issues plaguing the nation, I believe that the motif is coming sooner than later.

To summarize the history of the two nations:

Courageous explorers establish a small country----------------> Revolution occurs drastically changing the government of the country-------------> cultural exhaustion and an unpopular elite takes a toll on the nation, and a populist reactionary strongman takes power.

Feel free to comment, and if you see an inconsistency in my description of roman history-please say it
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@Dr.Franklin
 if you see an inconsistency in my description of roman history-please say it
  • sure thing
establishes the country as a "shining city on a hill" created on the chosen land by the chosen people.
  • "Shining city on a hill" is from Chapter 5 of the Gospel of Matthew
    • That's the Sermon on the Mount.  That's the same chapter that gives us the Beatitudes and the Golden Rule: 
      • "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
    • Augustus' new Empire was just taking shape when it put the author of these words to death just for speaking them.  So, it's ironic and ignorant to use Jesus' words to describe the founding of Rome or to put Romulus and Remus forward as YHWH's chosen people- absurdly offensive to everyone involved, really.
Rome also became a hotbed of expelled religious groups, criminals, and others. America also experienced the same phenomenon.
  • Rome conquered whole peoples and enslaved the survivors and their Gods until they were made Roman.  This is the opposite notion to inviting immigrants to live and worship side by side with different cultures in freedom as they please.
  • In any totalitarian state, every good man is a criminal eventually.
The OG Brutus who was mostly involved in the overthrow became a hero in English and American circles that were in favor of the '76 revolution. 
  • The Roman Republic admired Lucius Junius Brutus for overthrowing his tyrant uncle and founding the Republic in 509 BC.
  • The American Colonies admired Marcus Junius Brutus for assassinating the tyrant (and his mom's boyfriend) Julius Caesar in 44 BC
    • This Brutus committed suicide after losing one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history.  According the Suetonius, Augustus chopped off his head and let it rot in front in front of a statue of his Uncle Julius.  
      • That is, as with Jesus, you are admiring the executioner of the man the Founding Fathers admired.
But of course, the republic [sic] of Rome didn't last.
  • Well, it lasted 500 years- the longest single stretch of continuous government and peaceful transfer of power in the history of mankind and an unprecedented continuous run of increasing prosperity, innovation, and military victories.  It was this incredibly long-lasting and powerful example that the American Founding Fathers consciously emulated.
However, it is important to note that the populares were never a coordinated group unlike the optimate oligarchy.
  • Put another way, the people of Rome weren't trying to create an independent power base, they just rejected the wisdom of allowing the ultra-wealthy to rule absolutely.
On the other hand, reactionaries rejected Optimate power and regarded it as corrupted and morally evil. They focused on the influence of the army and the religion. The most well-known and by far successful of these reactionaries were Augustus.
  • Total bullshit  Three of the wealthiest super-billionaires coordinated to end free trade in Rome and force huge portions of the Roman economy under their monopoly (of course, many powerful men had been trying the same over the previous century, that was the game).   When Crassus died with a mouthful of molten gold, the other two went to war with each other over who got to be billionaire supreme.  That civil war went on for twenty years, pretty much every major player on every side died a horrible, violent death along with hundreds of thousands of others and Augustus, after betraying many friends and alliances,  after executing en masse most of the Roman upper class and taking all their stuff, and then wisely overpaying the most massive military ever assembled, Augustus crowned himself sole survivor and Emperor Supreme over pretty  much everyone and everything at the point of a sharp and well-bloodied spear, to the great disappointment of twenty generations of Roman ancestors.  To say that Augustus was motivated by religion or ideology is a pure lie. To pretend that Augustus didn't win by  simply being the most corrupt and morally evil player in the game is to piss in the eye of History.
He destroyed the traditional Optimate power, curbed the senate, and established the empire. But, he did it under a veil of reactionary patriotism (He was the first citizen).
  • He had half the Senate  executed  in 43 BC and 2000 Equites (essentially, upper class landowners) and took all their land and money.   Then he did the same again 3 years later, another 300 senators and a further 5000 elites and took all of their shit too.  
    • When DrFranklin says, "curbed the Senate," he means "executed  over 3 years 600 members of a 600 member Senate."
He promoted the traditional values of "chastity, monogamy, piety" that formed the basis of the roman founding centuries prior, made divorce harder, and
  • But that's just words for suckers to believe.  Chastity and monogamy were for wives and other slaves.  Rape was perfectly legal as long as the victim was of lower social status (and once you are Emperor, everybody is of lower social status- see how that works?)
    • Augustus divorced his first wife for politics, kicking off the Perusine War which ended with Augustus starving his ex-wife's home town to death and then burning it to the ground (After, of course, taking everything they ever owned).
    • Augustus divorced his second wife for politics on the same day she gave birth to his only child.  In spite of Augustus' "traditional values" that only child ended up being such a famously unstoppable slut that Augustus finally (perhaps correctly) accused her of trying to kill him and put her in jail for the rest of her life.  (The story of all family values in a nutshell).
    • Tacitus and Cassius Dio suggest that Augustus' third wife had some role in the deaths of Augustus' nephew and three of his grandsons with the intention of promoting her own son by an earlier marriage, Tiberius, to the throne.  The same two sources suggest that she may have also poisoned Augustus.  The evidence is speculative but all that speculation depends on Rome's understanding that Augustus' home life was far more Game of Thrones than Leave It to Beaver.
went to war with mark Anthony on the basis that he was a foreign traitor that had an affair with his wife.
  • Again, why believe Augustus' propaganda?
    • Antony was his father's right-hand man, famously the man who gave his dad's funeral oration.  Antony and Augustus had made oaths to one another to split the Empire and rule together, Augustus in the West and Antony in the East.  Augustus claimed "foreign traitor" but had twice swore an oath that Antony could rule from Alexandria so Antony was only foreign at Augustus' explicit demand. 
    • If having an affair with Cleopatra was in any way de-legitimizing, we should also note that Augustus' father also had an affair with the same amazing woman twenty years earlier so any legitimacy to these claims delegitimizes Augustus to the same degree.
      • In fact, Augustus' father's affair with Cleopatra produced a son, Julius' heir and the Last Pharaoh of Egypt.  Augustus promised his little brother that he could still rule over Egypt in order to lure him to Alexandria where Augustus promptly assassinated his little brother and took all of his shit.
      • Needless to say, Augustus also took all of the shit his father's best friend and his father's ex-girlfriend ever had.  In fact, Augustus declared the entire Nile River his personal property, all the Pyramids, the City of Alexandria- all of it was his private property by law. 
If you pay attention, this seems like pretty right-wing stuff
  • Agreed.


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In America, we also have a government that is also hopelessly corrupt,
  • Certainly, Trump brought a more corrupting influence than any prior figure in American history as the Jan 6 hearings demonstrate, the overwhelming majority of Govt is pretty much focused on doing their job and surprisingly difficult to corrupt.  
  • "Hopelessly corrupt" is just histrionic hyperbole.

opposed by the vast majority of Americans.
  • Total delusion.  Government is always unpopular  in a democracy but only Trump's seditionists can be said to be opposed to the US Govt and that's 10-15% of the electorate, tops.   The majority of those seditionists who attacked the Capitol on Jan 6th now regret their opposition and claim that Trump tricked them with his Big Lie.
There is CERTAINLY a moral absence among the population.
  • According to what moral standard.  I can't think a objectively less moral (or Christian) standard than Evangelical/Identity American Christianity popular with the Right Wing.
the never-ending ME wars facilitated by the MIC.
  • No wars in the ME now, so much for never-ending.
Donald Trump was one of the first reactionaries we have seen-promising to return the power of America.
  • Bullshit.  Trump tried to get us out of NATO, UN, WHO, capitulated in Afghanistan and Syria, knowingly invited foreign spies into the heart of US policy.  Trump promised American carnage and delivered.  Trump actively and deliberately weakened US influence in every international political sphere.
the right will begin to lose faith in the current system of American government,
  • You already said that the "vast majority" opposed US govt, which is way past "beginning to lose faith."
  • Let's agree that faithless and disloyal Americans have a moral obligation to move to a country they can believe in- Russia springs to mind.
all it took was one glaring stolen election for the right to completely let go of these preconceived notions.
  • Pay attention.  The Jan 6th hearing show without a doubt that not only was there never any evidence that the election stolen but that ALL of the President's families, friends, and advisors were telling him it was over for certain and forever with 48 hours after the election.  Only crazy outsiders like Guiliani and Mr Mypillow were claiming fraud and now we know that even Giuliani was privately advising Republicans that it was all made up "We just don't have the evidence"  That is, when Cruz and Abbott and Desantis and Tucker Carlson were telling everybody in December 2020 that there was election fraud and we have to get to the bottom of it, they already knew for a fact that there was no election fraud and they were all just pushing the lie in the hopes of overthrowing the Constitution.  "glaring stolen election" is an immoral, unpatriotic lie without any foundation in reality.
  • There is zero possibility that Trump won the election.  He knows it for a fact and continues to lie for the benefit of low-wattage suckers, just like Augustus claimed fake offenses to justify outrageous moral violations on a massive scale.
the police will be the ones who take the guns(as well as the shitshow in Ulvade) to recognize that the police are not a respectable institution.
  • Because in your mind, "let's protect schoolchildren from mass slaughter" can only mean "let's take away your guns."
I believe that more and more dominoes will fall, and that previously untouchable facets of American culture will begin to be rejected in favor of archaeon reactionary beliefs. 
  • I don't know what you base that on but let's agree that would be the nightmare scenario for all good and loyal people across the world.
but he was also ruthless, cunning, and bloody- he got the job fucking done.
  • Contradicting your prior claims of moral leader.  It can't be both unless you bloodthirst a virtue.
socially conservative. He defiled anyone who didn't have children, and made divorce harder.
  • Defiled means desecrate or rape.  I think you want a different word there.  When it comes to divorce, Augustus was a nasty, death-dealing hypocrite.
He also held the religion in high regard, and became one of the most central figures in it.(son of apollo)
  • Fuck that noise. To the horror of every pious person in history, he made declared his own father a God and forced people to worship him as a Son of God.  Augustus made certain that he would be worshipped as a God after his death.  If you don't understand that Dionysianism, and Mithridatism, and Christianity and all those "Son of God" claims were a direct reaction to Augustus' assertion of divinity than you haven't studied much religion.  Hey, if some general in Rome can just declare himself God, then I guess all bets are off and we can make our own, new religions.
  • Augustus violated the sanctity of the Temple of Vestal Virgins to investigate his political enemies
  • He name himself High Priest of Rome in violation of Roman law that you couldn't also have political office and then effectively destroyed the priesthood's power base (and much of Roman religious tradition with it) by simply not participating in the many rituals.  Augustus didn't respect Roman religion, he declared himself and his self-interest the religion of Rome.
the central issues that America is facing socially: porn, suicide, delayed marriages, fewer children, worsening economic situation, etc.
  • porn, delayed marriages, fewer children are all objective social goods.  The world is objectively overpopulated by humans and we must actively work to decrease population.  Nobody suicided with the frequency of Romans.  Augustan Rome was totally pro-suicide.  Its true that inflation is up and we might have recession in reaction to pandemics but the US economy is still the strongest in the world and growing.  Whatever "worsening economic situation" is supposed to mean, the American economy today is still better than most other times and places in economic history.
The whole notion of a "strongman ruler destroys a oligarchical elite" is found in every nation's history, well except in America's.
  • Let's keep it that way, shall we/
But with the current issues plaguing the nation, I believe that the motif is coming sooner than later.
  • Yes but as we here and in many other postings by you, your grasp of history and politics is way off base, total fantasy really.
To summarize the history of the two nations:

Courageous explorers establish a small country----------------> Revolution occurs drastically changing the government of the country-------------> cultural exhaustion and an unpopular elite takes a toll on the nation, and a populist reactionary strongman takes power.
  • Rome wasn't really discovered by explorers.  The first Romans and Etruscans and Latins were very likely direct descendants of Stone Age peoples who'd been living there for 14,000 years.  By contrast, America was built on remains of the multiple 14,000 year old cultures that mostly died from European diseases in a few short years after contact.  Always been there vs. took over after wiping out everybody are very different origin stories.
  • I don't know what "cultural exhaustion" is supposed to be a euphemism for but I see no evidence for such a claim in Rome or US today.
  • Likewise, I don't see any evidence for the elite being unpopular in Rome then or in the US now.  Trump and Kim Kardashian and  Elon Musk and Johnny Depp are the elites of today and frankly I wish they were a lot less popular- I could certainly stand to hear less about those assholes.
Let's make your history a little more accurate

Revolution occurs drastically changing the government of the country from authoritarianism to more representative Republicanism-------------> Both countries enjoys centuries of prosperity, innovation, and growth unmatched by any less democratic forms of govt until becoming the most important superpower of their age 

For Rome only, it is true that "a populist reactionary strongman takes power." and this should be followed by "Rome remains the superpower for centuries but innovation and growth are killed and the country slowly stagnates, shrinks, and is divided by a patchwork of ever weaker kings who one by one get swallowed up by relatively more primitive nomads"

Consider that the Roman Republic invented aqueducts and highways, books and libraries,  concrete and sewer systems, stadiums and domes,  post offices and newspapers- much of what we call Western Civilization first appeared during that that period of rapid expansionand then one successful coup and BOOM.  Rome expanded under Augustus but never grew larger again than it was before his death.  Rome expanded into England but shrank in Germany and the Middle East and by fits and starts, shrank and divided. under endless strings of tyrants  fighting endless civil wars for power.  At the time of Augustus' death, Hero of Alexandria had invented the first steam engine but slaves were so plentiful and cheap that industrialization seemed unnecessary.  Roman emperors murdered capitalism.  Emperors fixed the price of everything and so there was no inflation for a thousand years in Europe at the cost of zero innovation and each generation living slightly worse than the last for a thousand years.  The population of the city of Rome peaked just Julius Caesar takes over and Rome doesn't get that size again until after World War I.

This nation was founded on the principle that democracy is the best form of government and wherever mankind has built democracy, the human condition has improved.  To conclude that Rome was happier or wealthier or more moral under Empire is to be flat out wrong on the facts.  To conclude that tyrants must take over from time to time is irrational pessimism and frankly, unpatriotic.