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@Mopac
What is the difference between reality and ultimate reality?
There is no such thing as an Atheists.
Posts
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518
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@Mopac
DNA is superstitious. LOL not surprise you would find science to be so.
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@secularmerlin
The ultimate reality is supposed to be fundamental to 'reality'. In Christianity, and Judaism the ultimate reality is generally referred to as God.
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@Plisken
If that is more than observable reality then it is unobservable by definition. If it is unobservable it is unknown by definition. If it is unknown any claims made abput it are necessarily arguments from ignorance. So I ask you Is there a difference between reality and the ultimate reality?
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@secularmerlin
Yeah, it is beyond our understanding.
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@Plisken
Then we can make literally no claims about it without committing a logical fallacy.
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@secularmerlin
As I have said several times to no profit.
It is reality in the truest sense
Reality as it truly is
There is no reality without it, because if nothing is ultimately real, then nothing is real.
You yjink claims aboutnit cannot be made, but this is certainly not the case.
For example, it can be said to exist.
This cannot be a logical falllacy. In fact, saying it doesn't exist IS a logical fallacy.
And even being on the fence about it is not really a good position, because there is no other alternative. There must, by necessity, be Ultimate Reality.
And if you don't understand why this is the case, well... I strongly believe that contemplating the matter seriously reveals this to be evident.
So you are wrong. You can make claims about it. Claims that are intrinsic to what it by necessity means.
There are a number of claims that can be made about The Ultimate Reality, and they are all things that can be extracted from contemplating what that means.
There are two types of theology. Negative theology and positive theology. In Orthodox tradition, we tend to focus more on negative theology, that is, what God isn't.
So if that helps, contemplate what The Ultimate Reality is, and think about what is excluded from being that asking yourself... is this The Ultimate Reality?
Here are some examples of positive theology to ponder.
The Ultimate Reality is One. Are you examining a reality that accounts for everything?
The Ultimate Reality is non contingent. Are you examining a reality that needs another reality to exist?
The Ultimate Reality is eternal. Are you examing a reality that began to exist or will not exist at some point?
It is reality in the most complete sense.
It necessarily exists.
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@Mopac
You have made claims that exceed the admission that reality exists and also that exceed human epistemology. You always say that denying your claims is like denying reality exists but that is not strictly speaking true of all your claims, not in the truest sense.
If all you were claiming was that reality exists my response is yeah probably. With the addition of other claims my response changes.
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@secularmerlin
Have you disproven prophecy?
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@Plisken
What do you mean? What prophecy? And which ever prophecy surely the burden of proof goes to the one claiming there is a prophecy rather than the one who simply sees no reason to accept that there is such a thing as prophecy until proof can be provided.
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@secularmerlin
The only claim I am really making is that The Ultimate Reality exists.
I will make another claim. If you can't admit this, you're an idiot.
I will make another claim. If you can't admit this, you're an idiot.
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@Mopac
That is not the anly claim you have made about reality. You also claimed that it is eternal. Are you now retracting that claim?
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@secularmerlin
If it isn't, it isn't.
But it most certainly is.
And literaly nothing else makes sense or is even possible.
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@secularmerlin
And I am talking about The Ultimmate Reality, not reality.
Is this why you say god instead of God? Because you are an evasive little weasel?
So dishonest, it makes talking with you a real ordeal. You aren't even trying.
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@Mopac
What is the difference between reality and the ultimate reality?
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@Grugore
What part of "show me evidence and I'll believe it" don't you understand?
I actually do want God to exist as that would mean I'd be going to a magical perfect place full of happiness and love for all eternity after I die, but I don't see any reason to believe that place exists, or that an infinitely powerful dictator decides who goes to what place after they die, which is impossible to begin with.
No evidence =/= not wanting something to be true.
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@secularmerlin
We going to play this game again? Do I need to tell you 20 more times?
Go away.
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@secularmerlin
Or if you really can't tell the difference, say...
The Ultimate Reality exists.
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@Polytheist-Witch
No, your superstition comes from thinking "Jewish DNA" has anything to do with God creating you. God created everything.
If something doesn't exist in truth, it doesn't exist.
Everything exists because of The Ultimate Reality. That is the source.
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@Mister_Man
"What part of "show me evidence and I'll believe it" don't you understand?"
The main thing to get you to that point, would be to have you consider evidence that correlates with the nature of God. The next hurdle would be to make you aware of what "evidence" consists of and agree with it so that at least we can get passed "show me evidence" to deeper questions. As for "outward" evidence or some sort of physical evidence you should be asking yourself "what is it I'm looking for exactly "? "what am I waiting to find or who am I waiting on to find it"?......keeping in mind that part of the solution (or problem) is the interpretation of what evidence and theories are available or what is being put forth from any particular study or proposition.
You definitely should consider that science and spirituality (Theism) are compatible for instance and that they each study a different nature, in this sense science is just a method of studying how God created the worlds while on the other hand science is not equipped to answer questions regarding the existence of the Creator and the nature of the soul so we move over to spirituality, which is congruent with the nature of the Divine. Spirituality of course being the practical application and observations of the transcendent aspect of life/existence.
"I actually do want God to exist as that would mean I'd be going to a magical perfect place full of happiness and love for all eternity after I die"
That's not quite how it works Mr. Man but I love the enthusiasm! while you most certainly could visit a heaven (or inhabit one) it will first depend on your own desires and needs both spiritually as well as what you desire in this physical world, there are many factors involved that will tie you to certain experiences or that will dictate what you must experience next. The individual soul (you) has a progressive journey in creation (some use the term "reincarnation") and there is more than two options of experience when you leave the physical body. There are literally endless experiences and bodies you could observe through and endless places you might venture beyond this one.
As a general rule of thumb the higher realms are inhabited buy souls that have spiritually "earned" or progressed through their journey to obtain that experience for no specified amount of time. This ensures the quality of existence to be much higher than what you see here in the lower realms but all souls have a chance to learn and progress. Heavens are actually planets, these planets exist within universes and there are many as well there are many other places the soul can go. God is much more creative and amazing than given credit for.
As beautiful as earth is and much of life here can be at times, it's also a hell in many ways but this is a place of learning and progressing and so it's important not to judge the idea of creation squarely on what you see in this world. You will know what I mean once you cross that side. You should ask more questions in this forum and maybe you could consider more ways of understanding spirituality and how it relates to you.
" but I don't see any reason to believe that place exists,"
Okay maybe not at this time and that is justifiable and understandable especially if you are not used to thinking spiritually and you have never experienced anything to judge by, but why don't you hang around and ask stuff, perhaps if you were to have a broader scope of what Theism consists of you would have more to consider or make sense of.
Is there any particular reason for you to not at least consider the possibility that conscious life transcends the physical sense experience? I mean look at "size" and numbers of spirituality and religious sources as a whole including spiritual encounters, NDE's and soul travel. I mean it is pretty obvious something is going on, but that is not enough that is just to get you to consider not accept. You were meant to experience all facets of life first hand you just have yet to connect with the higher conscious levels, or what some people might call "spirit", but that could change anytime during your life and if not you'll see when you leave the body. No condemnation we all grow at our own pace, but I would have you consider more things and not look at Theism as some absurdity, not that you do but a lot of people get tripped up by thinking Creationism is some kind of absurd proposition but TBH that is just perception. You may not always feel way, same with anyone else.
"or that an infinitely powerful dictator decides who goes to what place after they die, which is impossible to begin with."
Well this has some truth to it, while it is not impossible of course...the individual soul (you and I) play a bigger role and part in what we experience next and as I pointed out it is an endless ocean of possible places you can experience not just two, or one. Creation is endless, conscious life can exists on many different frequencies that is fun part about the nature of consciousness.
"No evidence =/= not wanting something to be true."
Stop doubting yourself and telling yourself things are impossible and get in the topics, as I said there are forms of evidence and there are many dynamics involved in spirituality. Ask me questions, anything you want to discuss. Anything to get you expand what you know or what you want to consider.
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@Mopac
Doesn't reality exist? If so then that is clearly not the difference. Please try again.
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@Mopac
Sorry. Your god did not create the universe or even us. He is a liar and you have fallen for it.
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@secularmerlin
Well stated.There is no evidence of anything before there earliest event we can detect (or even at the biggining of this event) the event in question is the big bang. Any claim about what existed or happened before the big bang is therefore necessarily an argument from ignorance if indeed before is not a nonsensical idea regarding the big bang.
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@Plisken
Yeah, it is beyond our understanding.
Bingo.
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@Mopac
And I am talking about The Ultimmate Reality, not reality.
I'm talking about the Ultimmate Duck, not the duck you saw outside.
I'm talking about the Ultimmate Chair, not the chair you're sitting on now.
I'm talking about the Ultimmate Rose, not the rose you bought at the store.
The Ultimmate Duck existed long before any duck that a human has seen and is a logical prerequisite for any such ducks to even exist.
The Ultimmate Chair existed long before any chair that a human has seen and is a logical prerequisite for any such chairs to even exist.
The Ultimmate Rose existed long before any rose that a human has seen and is a logical prerequisite for any such roses to even exist.
Have you read any PLATO?
I think you guys would get along quite nicely.
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@secularmerlin
@Polytheist-Witch
@3RU7AL
It is reality that all of you are woefully ignorant concerning God. One day, you may be enlightened. One day you will be dead, so there is no you to be ignorant about things.
The reality that you all are woefully ignorant concerning God is a reality, but not The Ultimate Reality.
The Ultimate Reality is Eternally True.
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@Mopac
What is the difference between reality and the ultimate reality? I'm especially interested in the practical tangible difference if there is one.
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@secularmerlin
What you perceive to be reality is a reality to you.
But it isn't The Ultimate Reality, which is reality as it truly is.
There certainly is a difference, and remaining conscious of it will be a check against you leaning so much on your understanding.
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@Mopac
When I say reality I do mean my perceptions. What is the difference between reality (noumana) and the ultimate reality?
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@secularmerlin
One is actually reality, and the other is only real in some sense. It is greatly illusory.
The Ultimate Reality is that which is totally real with no illusion.
You can't see it because your perception is illusion by nature. Yet, it is there, and to deny it is not rational.