Bodily Autonomy

Author: Danielle

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@3RU7AL
We should always invade the privacy of someone who wants to kill an innocent human being. Imagine if we never invaded Jeffery Dalmer's privacy....

If you plan on having a human killed, you are the first person who should have your privacy invaded.

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@3RU7AL
do i owe you food and shelter if you're caught in a snow storm ?
If you used mystical powers to create the snow storm, I’d say yes

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@DebateAllDaTings
Why are they not autonomous persons
Because the unborn are dependent on the beating heart of the body in which they reside. If there is an unborn 'will', it is subject to the autonomy of the body they need for their existence. If I rely on your organs for my survival, I exist solely by your willingness to allow me to use them. I have no claim to your body, while you do have claim to your own organs regardless of my needs or wants.

Personhood is a legal status which is typically granted at birth or in rare cases involving malicious harm of the person they rely on for life.


Also, did you know that abortion changes a woman's body and life as well?
Pregnancy is the cause of change in a woman's body, not abortion. Abortion stops the pregnancy, but it may not stop processes already begun. 

you are talking about sticking instruments in a woman who is already pregnant and killing her unborn child.
Most abortions occur early in a pregnancy and medication is all that is required. Abortions which occur later in the pregnancy (and might use instruments) are typically done out of necessity,  such as to save the life of a woman who most likely wanted a child.

There's Hormonal changes, breast tissue, lactation and even changes at the cellular level because of abortion. 
Without abortion, these changes will occur demonstrating these changes are due to pregnancy and not abortion.

Also, comandeering a body isn't the same during rape and you know it. With rape it is done with intent to harm, 
Rape occurs any time there is non-consensual sex. Intent to harm isn't necessary. Comandeering someone else's body for personal gratification or benefit is, in itself, harmful to the victim.

Are you for the death penalty? 
Abortion is about disallowing occupancy (not an execution). I am a strong proponent of eviction. If I, as a property manager, evict someone from my property, I haven't executed them. I have removed them from my property and they, being fully autonomous persons, are responsible for their own life regardless of where they live.
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@DebateAllDaTings
The woman does not have to be an incubator.
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@DebateAllDaTings
I would gladly kill an intruder into my home and law says it's fine.
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@SkepticalOne
So just to clarify your position, one is not autonomous if their living existence is dependent on another person? 

Also, it is not just about disallowing occupancy as the child must first be killed inside the womb before the child comes out. It is all about killing another human. If a child survives an abortion that is a literally called a "failed abortion". 
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@Polytheist-Witch
A woman (or a man) has to be whatever is entailed by not killing an innocent human. If that entails being an incubator, or being anything else that is entailed by not killing an innocent human with moral value, then so be it.

Also, those laws are not universal, in my country you cannot take a life just because someone is trespassing.

Also, trespassing entails one being some place where they are not supposed to be. The fetus's home is literally the mother's womb, that is the natural place they are supposed to be. Thus, the two are not comparable.

A trespasser comes from outside, a trespasser cannot grow from within. The human life starts at conception, and conception begins within the mother.
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@3RU7AL
3Ru....what happens inside YOUR OWN BODY is your business and only your business........if there is a human living inside your borders and you wish to deport them
then you and only you have the right to deport them.....

Talking common sense to partriarchal/Bible based fundamentalist zealots  never works in past and never in future.

These pro-lifers might as well be living in the darks ages, since their thoughts of pregnant women are so dark.





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Also, it is not just about disallowing occupancy as the child must first be killed inside the womb before the child comes out.
ECTOGENESIS FTW
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@Polytheist-Witch
I would gladly kill an intruder into my home and law says it's fine.
bingo
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@ebuc
Deportation isn't the same as killing someone. If someone is deported and they survive that is looked at as a success. However, if a baby survives abortion that is literally called a "failed abortion". The whole purpose of an abortion is to kill the baby, not to take the baby out early and have it live.

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So just to clarify your position, one is not autonomous if their living existence is dependent on another person? 
No. I chose my words carefully and provided an extended explanation for a reason. 

Also, it is not just about disallowing occupancy as the child must first be killed inside the womb before the child comes out.
If the 'child' cant survive without someone else's organs, it can't survive. Period. If doctors weren't overly cautious and humane, you wouldn't have this pretense of an argument.


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@SkepticalOne
If I rely on your organs for my survival, I exist solely by your willingness to allow me to use them. I have no claim to your body, while you do have claim to your own organs regardless of my needs or wants.
exactly
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The whole purpose of an abortion is to kill the baby, not to take the baby out early and have it live.
The non-breathing, fetus/baby is an organism of the pregnant woman. What part of that do you not grasp?

The fetus/baby is not an organism of Bones, All-tings, USA, Supreme court etc.
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@bmdrocks21
do i owe you food and shelter if you're caught in a snow storm ?
If you used mystical powers to create the snow storm, I’d say yes
if you support the production of industrial waste by purchasing products

are you responsible for the harm (to humans) caused by that industrial waste ?

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@SkepticalOne
Relying on a heartbeat seems like an arbitrary condition to count as "autonomous". You are basically just describing the situation of the unborn and saying "that's what makes the unborn not autonomous" which is question begging.

I see no reason why the unborn doesn't deserve the same right to life as anybody.

If a man popped into my house right now, and would die for some reason if he left my house, I would have a moral obligation to not push him out of my house as that is murder as it is killing him.

I think our disagreement on this matter comes down to which is valued more, the right of ownership of property, or the right to not be killed. 
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@3RU7AL
if you support the production of industrial waste by purchasing products

are you responsible for the harm (to humans) caused by that industrial waste ?
The entity at fault is the one that created the waste: the company.

Whoever directly causes something is the party responsible. That's how most of our laws work (with some very specific and minor exceptions like negligence law). But I don't think that purchasing a legally-allowed product could be classified as a negligent act.
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If a man popped into my house right now, and would die for some reason [LIKE A SNOW-STORM FOR EXAMPLE] if he left my house, I would have a moral obligation to not push him out of my house as that is murder as it is killing him.
message to the homeless and destitute

break into people's homes when there is a snow-storm
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@bmdrocks21
The entity at fault is the one that created the waste: the company.
that company does not exist unless they receive contributions from customers

sure,

you might not be "legally responsible"

but couldn't you conceivably be "morally responsible"

maybe

just a tiny bit ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
Relying on a heartbeat seems like an arbitrary condition to count as "autonomous".
I've said nothing about a heartbeat. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

*edit* I see what you mean now. I've referred to more than just a beating heart. My point is that the essence of life that exists within each of us is our most important and valuable property. No one gets to claim it for themselves without permission.  And if they are directly reliant on someone else's life force for survival, they are not autonomous.

I see no reason why the unborn doesn't deserve the same right to life as anybody.
I have no issue with a legitimate right to life, but that right doesn't include trampling the rights of others. Again, my right to life doesn't include your body, and it is the same for everyone - including the unborn.

If a man popped into my house right now, and would die for some reason if he left my house,
A man materializing inside your skin would be more analogous...

I think our disagreement on this matter comes down to which is valued more, the right of ownership of property, or the right to not be killed. 

I think you're right. My position is that all rights are contigent on self ownership. If we don't own ourselves, then rights are meaningless. How can you posses a right but not the body it is meant protect?
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@3RU7AL
Breaking into a house is not analogous to a man beginning to exist by popping into my house.

Again, human life begins at conception so my analogy was about a life beginning in the place in question. That is NOT the same as existing outside the place in question and breaking in. 

I am talking about a life starting their existence in the place in question. 

Thus, This analogy from you misses the mark.
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@SkepticalOne
"I am a strong proponent of eviction. If I, as a property manager, evict someone from my property, I haven't executed them. I have removed them from my property and they, being fully autonomous persons, are responsible for their own life regardless of where they live."

You are the one who used eviction as an analogy to abortion, so I don't know why you would talk about "being under the skin" when I am simply going off your own analogy that you provided. Being under the skin wouldn't be an analogy, it would be literally describing the initial scenario in question.

"My position is that all rights are contigent on self ownership. If we don't own ourselves, then rights are meaningless. How can you posses a right but not the body it is meant protect?"

I agree that we own ourselves, but that is only if our choices with our body don't significantly put others at risk, harm or kill another innocent person. This is why I cannot stab people, even though I "own" my arm. Why should a mother be able to kill her child even though she "owns" her womb?

I don't want to go in circles, as I think you would just respond to the above question with "because the unborn child isn't autonomous". However, I simply don't see a reason to adhere to your criteria for autonomy. I think it doesn't matter what you need to live or who's body you rely on or live inside; you have the right not to be killed simply for existing.



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@DebateAllDaTings
I am talking about a life starting their existence in the place in question. 
what if someone knocks on your door in the middle of a snow-storm

is refusing them shelter tantamount to "murder" ?
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@3RU7AL
"what if someone knocks on your door in the middle of a snow-storm

is refusing them shelter tantamount to "murder" ?"

Could you please read my last comment more carefully. I am talking about someone starting their existence in the place in question. 

Someone knocking on my door obviously exists OUTSIDE the place in the question for them even wanting to come in.

Your analogy fails for this reason (and others).



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@DebateAllDaTings
I agree that we own ourselves, but that is only if our choices with our body don't significantly put others at risk, harm or kill another innocent person.
ok, let's say we all agree

abortion = murder

how do you propose we distinguish miscarriage from murder or manslaughter ?

how do you propose the state be informed of all pregnancies ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
what if someone knocks on your door in the middle of a snow-storm

is refusing them shelter tantamount to "murder" ?

it's a simple "yes" or "no" question, separate from the "metaphor"
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@DebateAllDaTings
I am not under any obligation to donate my organs to any other human being. And if it wasn't for the sperm the egg does not spontaneously generate a baby.
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@3RU7AL
Miscarriage isn't a choice so it isn't murder or manslaughter, it is an accident that is not due to any negligence of the mother so there should be no penalty.
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@DebateAllDaTings
Miscarriage isn't a choice so it isn't murder or manslaughter, it is an accident that is not due to any negligence of the mother so there should be no penalty.
many miscarriages are preventable with proper diet and bed-rest

how do you propose the state distinguish between a "natural" miscarriage and a miscarriage due to negligence (and or an intentionally induced miscarriage) ?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not saving someone is not the same as actively killing them.

There's a huge difference between not donating to save someone, and pushing them in a woodchipper.