if some adults are no more mature than a minor, guns increase murder risk

Author: n8nrgim

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#1
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turning 18 doesn't magically make a person a mature adult.  we give them the rights of adults, with the consequences of adults, because they should know better. that doesn't mean they will know better. 

if a kid isn't mature enough to own a gun, and many adults are no better than kids in their maturity, how does it follow that all adults are mature enough to own a gun? 

my point, is the presence of a gun, will cause some people to die who otherwise wouldn't die. this common sense point is at the basis for half the nonsense that gun nuts talk about. "guns dont kill people, people kill people". in fact,  guns do kill people. and, it should be common sense that a gun will cause some people to be more likely to kill people. 

the science behind this is overwhelming, that the presence of a gun causes murder rate to increase, more here. 

but i'm just curious how the gun nuts will wiggle around this kid v adult maturity point. 
#2
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@n8nrgim
are you suggesting some sort of "citizenship test" be required before someone can be legally recognized as an "adult" ?
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#3
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@3RU7AL
i dont know where you got that. my point is that if a minor isnt mature enough to own a gun, many adults are not mature enough to own a gun, and simply having so many guns out there in so many hands, will increase the murder rate. my reason for making that point, is it's common for gun nuts to say guns are simply tools and dont increase the chances someone will get murdered. 
#4
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@n8nrgim
many adults are not mature enough to own a gun
what kind of test are you proposing 

specifically,

in order to determine "mature enough to own a gun" ?
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#5
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@3RU7AL
i dont know why you keep thinking i'm referring to a test. i think it's self evident that many adults are no more mature than minors, and thus it is illogical to say so many guns in so many hands doesn't increase the murder rate. A. a minor isn't mature enough to own a gun B. many adults are no more mature than minors C. therefore many adults are not mature enough to own a gun D. if those irresponsible adults have a gun, the rate of murder in our country will increase  

irrefutable logic. 
#6
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@n8nrgim
irrefutable logic. 
But not actionable.

2A people are just going to say "oh well, it's in the constitution, so buy a gun if you're so scared" or "all it takes to stop an irresponsible adult with a gun is a responsible adult with a gun, so buy a gun you liberal pussy, otherwise the Brits will just march back in here and take over." 
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#7
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@ludofl3x
i agree it might not change anything, but i would like all those 'guns are just tools' people to finally acknowledge the common sense and science that says gun are dangerous and increase the murder rate.  though, most the people who make that sorta argument probably wouldnt admit to it after the smack down of science and logic in this thread, lolz
#8
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 i would like all those 'guns are just tools' people to finally acknowledge the common sense and science
Don't hold your breath. :)
#9
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@n8nrgim
B. many adults are no more mature than minors
support this particular claim
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#10
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@3RU7AL
isn't it self evident?

some minors are treated as adults based on maturity then it follows that some adults are no better than minors. is it such that the day before his 18th birthday someone might not be mature but then the day after their 18th birthday they are mature? 

it's basic logic. 
#11
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@n8nrgim
Should we then make minors whose maturity exceeds their adult counterparts eligible to purchase guns? That's the solution you're going to get. The answer is always MORE GUNS. 
#12
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@n8nrgim
isn't it self evident?
no, are you talking about "impulse control" or "executive function" or "prefrontal cortex development" ?

you're going to have to be slightly more specific than "some kids are smart and some adults are dumb"
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#13
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@3RU7AL
i think u r referring to the factors that i would refer to... "impulse control" or "executive function" "prefrontal cortex development"

again, isn't this self evident? 

also, i didn't say smart v dumb, i said mature v immature. 

i dont know how u can be so dense to be dragging this out given it's so self evident. what am i missing? 
#14
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Because it is easier to regulate. 18 is when most people mature enough to use a gun, supposedly. 
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Most people are physically mature enough to reproduce at the age of 11 or 12 or sometimes even younger.

Yet we make a huge song and dance about under age sex, pregnancy and the inability of young people to cope with sex and parenthood.

But it's cool to have an assault rifle or two in the cupboard.
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But society won’t let us. We don’t want to everyone to have no more education than middle school to make kids. That way the problem is worse.

Sure, kids can have guns, but it is better if they don’t.
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@Intelligence_06
For sure, social evolution comes up with a social methodology.

So education and career is deemed more  important and child reproduction takes a back seat, often until a lot of women are way past their physical best in terms of carrying and delivery.

And then we strive to live into senility and decrepitude.

Well, this is certainly the "Western"  approach to procreation and population management.

Not sure how clever this methodology is.

But we will have to run with it for now.

Just like we have to live with some peoples morbid fascination with guns and aggression.

It does seem to me, that as the intelligent species we are nonetheless a tad contradictory to say the least.
#18
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@n8nrgim
i dont know how u can be so dense to be dragging this out given it's so self evident. what am i missing?
it is almost impossible to find a ten year old or even a thirteen year old with a more developed prefrontal cortex than an eighteen or twenty five year old
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#19
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@3RU7AL
"it is almost impossible to find a ten year old or even a thirteen year old with a more developed prefrontal cortex than an eighteen or twenty five year old"

so younger minors are not as mature as young adults... what's your point? that doesn't mean that all young adults are mature enough to have a gun. 
#20
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@n8nrgim
that doesn't mean that all young adults are mature enough to have a gun. 
ACCORDING TO WHAT STANDARD ?

WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU PROPOSING ?

WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU PROPOSING ?

WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU PROPOSING ?
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#21
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@3RU7AL
why do you keep asking me about standards and tests? 

why would you expect me to scientifically prove that many adults are no more mature than a minor? 

can a person be not mature the day before they're adult but suddenly mature the day after they're an adult? 

this is such a pointless conversation. proof to me there's no coherent argument to be made against me, a tacit admission by the internet that guns cause more murders than if those guns didnt exist. 
#22
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@n8nrgim
you're speaking in vague generalities

on a policy issue

policy requires quantifiable standards
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#23
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this says brain development doesn't stop until mid twenties often. 

but this is beyond brain development. even some fifty year olds are as immature as minors. 
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#24
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@3RU7AL
can a person be not mature the day before they're adult but suddenly mature the day after they're an adult? 
do you really think there are no twenty year olds who are as immature as most minors? 

i dont know why you're pushing for proof. it's self evident. you're just being obtuse and difficult, for no reason. 
#25
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@n8nrgim
i dont know why you're pushing for proof. it's self evident. you're just being obtuse and difficult, for no reason. 
you can't base a policy

on

your personal perception
#26
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@n8nrgim
Different cultures have different age thresholds,
Different cultures have different ways of raising kids and expectations of them,
Different expectations of their outcomes as a result of that raising.
#27
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@n8nrgim
can a person be not mature the day before
perhaps we should require some kind of test,

like a bat mitzva
#28
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Oh my god. Can we just agree on restricting guns on all people, not just adults or minors.
#29
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@Intelligence_06
Depends on the restrictions.