asking why suffering exists is like asking why darkness exists

Author: n8nrgim

Posts

Total: 27
Topic's author
#1
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes. it can help us make progress to end suffering. we are co creators in that sense. it can give people the perspective to appreciate no suffering. as jesus said, the man wasn't born with health problems because of something him or his parents did, but to give glory to God when he's one day disease free. 

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists. that's just the way it is. can we have just light? i dont think that is possible in our reality. same way, suffering may need to exist in this reality too. 

of course, a person can just insist that if it's possible for suffering not to exist but does, then it isn't necessary. a person could rationally cling to that principle, but they have to admit that they might be wrong if everything i say is true, and they need to admit that the alternative view that i present is completely realistic.  What if God and heaven exist, and the reality is how i present it? then the skeptic is just clinging to philosophy that has no basis in reality. the words and thoughts, the pointless ramblings, of mere men. 
Topic's author
#2
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
to be clear, i respect the argument of the problem of suffering. i just dont think it's enough to insist on being a skeptic. 
#3
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Well this is one of those topics that tends to apply to monotheism because in polytheist myths even the gods suffer because they are subject to Fate. They lose children, some suffer injuries, some suffer illnesses and some die. So there are instances where suffering and the gods can exist together. Having one doesn't cancel the other out. 
Topic's author
#4
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
interesting, i never considered it from the polytheist perspective. makes sense though when ya consider the history of god's and their purposes. 
Topic's author
#5
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
i guess traditional christian theology is possible too. we are living in the fall of man, and the consequence is suffering. i never got into all that sorta jibe though 
#6
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@n8nrgim
is like asking why darkness exists
there is no "darkness"

even deep space is full of all kinds of radiation

they just don't happen to be the tiny fraction of wavelengths that our human eye happens to be able to perceive
#7
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@n8nrgim
On a basic level maybe we naturally evolved to perceive pain so that we would be motivated to avoid harm. 
I don’t know, this is just part of a little theory I have. 
#8
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will. 
Topic's author
#9
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Bones
i dont disagree, but there could still be a purpose or reason for suffering to exist. 
Topic's author
#10
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Bones
but it might also be possible that suffering is necessary, for our free will to be purified with the strife that humans encounter. we humans can't know the answer. but, if we are believers, it makes more sense to assume there's a reason for things. 
#11
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@n8nrgim
@Poly

As far as we know there is no such thing as a GOD/S with purposes.....That just remains a wild/romantic, assumption/fancy.

Suffering is simply the inevitability and consequent appreciation of physiological stress and decline.


"The pointless ramblings of mere men" (and women), comes up with all sorts of guff.

Though within it's own human context there is always some sort of point to what we do.

Composing guff is a good mental exercise........As is composing counter-guff.
#12
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Bones
Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will.
Or:
Suffering is, and free will is the assumption of a programmed but sentient organism.

Guff or counter-guff.......Take your pick.
#13
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
Nice little theory.
#14
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
We should rather try to define, what exactly is suffering?

If there is no suffering, then everything is because it means everything is of the same degree of satisfaction. That is what I think.
#15
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will. 
please explain
#16
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@n8nrgim
also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists. that's just the way it is. can we have just light? i dont think that is possible in our reality. same way, suffering may need to exist in this reality too. 
I've never been particularly strong advocate for the problem of suffering, but I recognize the argument as valid. I mean, if an all powerful, knowing, and benevolent creator is responsible for existence, then suffering is difficult to explain. Darkness...not so much. Darkness, on its own, is benign. Suffering is literally harm.
#17
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,593
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
By Ellen Post:

When I was in grad school at the University of Maryland in the 1990s, there was a lovely young woman from the Philippines in my department working on a Masters degree. On a spring break one year she and some friends drove to New York for a short vacation. They were in their car in Chinatown when a stray bullet in a gang fight went through their windshield and killed this young woman.
There are those who attribute such events to God’s will, who believe that God has a purpose for everything that happens. Nothing in life is random; everything happens for a reason, for those folks.
I am not one of them. To me, that young woman’s tragic death was just a freak random event. If she hadn’t been in that exact place at that exact time, she’d be alive today.
While people getting hit by stray bullets is relatively rare (our current mass shooting problem notwithstanding), randomness in life is not. In fact, if you asked me how much I think random chance affects your life, my short answer would be, “A lot.”
#18
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@n8nrgim
There is no rational moral justification for the totality of suffering on Earth. I have never found a theodicy that really held up to scrutiny.

Let's look at your theodicies.

is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes. it can help us make progress to end suffering.
The purpose of suffering is to end suffering? That seems circular to me, from a divine creator's perspective.
 
More to the point, this argument only justifies the minimum amount of suffering necessary to help us end suffering, and the suffering we observe far exceeds that amount. We observe a ridiculously gratuitous amount of suffering in the world -- disease, rape, starvation, war, pedophilia, sex trafficking, depression, murder, harassment, abuse, natural disaster, poverty, suicide... I could go on and on. If I removed just one of these from the list, the world would be a better place, and there would still be enough suffering to "help us make progress to end suffering."

Something else I don't really like about this argument is that it only seems to acknowledge constructive suffering, not destructive suffering. If the purpose of suffering is constructive, why does destructive suffering exist? And in such needless and overwhelming amounts?

it can give people the perspective to appreciate no suffering.
This reminds me of the contrast theodicy -- the argument that evil is necessary to make us understand and appreciate good. Again, though, this only justifies the minimum amount of suffering necessary to make us appreciate the absence of suffering, and again, the amount of suffering we observe in the world far exceeds that amount. Would I really be unable to appreciate what's good in life if every other evil in the world still existed except, say, genocide?

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists.
I almost never ask why suffering exists unless someone has asked me to believe in a loving and all-powerful God.

Otherwise, my position is that suffering simply is. Its existence is no one's fault.
#19
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@n8nrgim
is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes.
Wrong question. Whether it's possible is irrelevant.

Is suffering necessary for it's supposed good purpose to be fulfilled? Answer: Not if you're an all powerful god.
#20
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Suffering is just designated to the less satisfying side of things. Everyone has strength, but the people with less-than average strength is called weak. Every color in reality has light(as perfect darkness is unrealistic), but the more black ones are called dark.

It is all relative. The less satisfying things as they are are basically suffering since we expect the mean or median number of satisfaction from each event on average. Being whipped by a prison guard 24/7 is less satisfying than what the average person expects, so is being in chronic pain for years straight, that is why we call those suffering.
#21
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,593
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.

79 days later

#22
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@FLRW
Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.
Th3 Bible tells us God found what he created very good.
Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Evolution actually improves the fitness of the population.

Suffering and pain are not natural to creation or evolution.

Even pain killers do more  harm than end pain as it develops an addiction to both.
#23
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,593
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Shila

As I just said in a recent post, it is  estimated that 109 billion people have lived and died over the course of 192,000 years. Humans are born to die.
#24
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Shila
Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.
Th3 Bible tells us God found what he created very good.
Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

So?  Also according to the bible we were created in his image".


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27 

#25
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen


Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.
The Bible tells us God found what he created very good.
Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

So?  Also according to the bible we were created in his image".


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27
Hard to argue with scriptures when they are correctly quoted.

#26
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Shila
So?  Also according to the bible we were created in his image".


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27
Hard to argue with scriptures when they are correctly quoted.

Indeed therefore man, the bible says, was created as good as god... or as poorly designed.

#27
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
So?  Also according to the bible we were created in his image".


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27
Hard to argue with scriptures when they are correctly quoted.

Indeed therefore man, the bible says, was created as good as god... or as poorly designed.
What you are missing is the changes Adam and Eve underwent after they were banished from the perfect environment created in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

The descendants of Adam and Eve were exposed to the harsh elements of evolution and an unprotected environment and no longer living in Paradise.