2022 NBA Finals: Golden State Warriors vs. Boston Celtics.

I'm going with Boston, of course I say this with no bias.

As for Lefraud James, I personally think he can recover from this.

A superteam on paper that can't even reach the playoffs? Yeah, he is finished.

The guy can't win a ring without the bubble or Ray Allen.

Who are your picks?

Who do you want to win?

How does this affect LeBron James?

his performance and "all-time status" as a basketball player are overrated.

As for Lefraud James, I personally think he can recover from this. A superteam on paper that can't even reach the playoffs? Yeah, he is finished. The guy can't win a ring without the bubble or Ray Allen. Total fraud in my book

I picked Boston because I don’t believe in Steph come crunch time but I would love to see the greatest shooter of all time prove me wrong with his 1st FMVP.

LeBron James legacy as the 2nd greatest basketball player of all time is pretty much set (him passing Kareem next season might enhance it to some folks) but if anything comes close to challenging it this upcoming finals it’s if Steph’s Warriors win because he would then tie James in championships with a chance of passing him (considering his age and collection of talent around him).

Just out of curiosity where do you have James ranked all-time as a basketball player?

He lead 3 different teams to NBA championships. When he was in Cleveland the Cavs had the best record in the NBA. When he left they had the worst record in the NBA. Then he returned and they won a title.

He's not Jordan, but to call him a fraud is crazy.

As for this "super team", we've seen this before. The rockets had Olajuwan, Pippen, and Barkly. The Lakers had Shaq, Malone, Payton, and Kobe. No titles for either of them.

Curry has two of the highest fourth-quarter scores in the history of the NBA Finals.

But I suspect politics and agendas were behind his snubs.

I state this because the Lakers had such a precipitous drop off after that bubble championship

LeBron James has fewer championships than Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul Jabar, and the narrative still suggests that he's the "second greatest player of all time."

7. LeBron James

There's always bias, but that's okay, because we're discussing sports.

That doesn’t make him clutch. Especially since not all 4th quarter situations are created equal, in some instances it’s garbage time. Since you want to link me to stats how about I return the favor https://mobile.twitter.com/bball_ref/status/1139377970156429317

So don’t bring up any of his finals to me.

You mentioned earlier that he should’ve gotten FMVP over Iggy that’s a subject for another day

his 1st ring was against a team that had nobody but LeBron on it.

His 2nd trip to the finals he played awful in game 7

And had his team won Draymond would’ve gotten FMVP over him

So here you go https://youtu.be/wgVOgGLtPtc

His 3rd he and his whole squad flew to the Hamptons to recruit KD

"Here's the thing that's interesting about Golden State -- their players have been recruiting Kevin Durant all year. And it goes back to early in the season when the Thunder were struggling."

(because the 2nd greatest player of all time humbled the former unanimous MVP and took his heart out his chest)

where he rode shotgun to form what some may call the greatest team of all time.

His 4th was like a similar situation to his 1st except worse because KD was there.

His 5th he could’ve showed the world something by making a clutch game winning shot but he bricked it as usual

but hey he’s the greatest shooter of all time so I guess we can’t say anything critical about him right?

Like I said he still has a chance to prove the naysayers wrong

but until I see him hit a clutch shot like Ray Allen did in game 6 of the 2013 Finals, he will always be a big choker in my eyes.

The same politics and agendas that made him the 1st unanimous MVP in NBA history?

That precipitous drop off was largely due to injuries to two of the Lakers key players, do me a favor and name a team that sustained the same amount of playoff success without a healthy roster resembling the lakers situation in 2021.

True but there are some guys that put those guys ahead of LeBron for that reason as well.

In case you didn’t know Shaq has played on more teams than anybody else in your top 10?

On the top of your head could you even guess how many?

Could you guess how many times he’s been SWEPT?

I resent that, I think my analysis is pretty objective

because this notion that Steph is clutch is just a bad take.

I actually think his critics are bit too hard on him. 

I don't think the machine behind LeBron James will allow the narrative to focus on Steph's possibly eclipsing LeBron James in total championships

How does this affect LeBron James?

So, in your opinion, ONLY the last shot-clock regulation period in a game's entire regulation is "clutch"? Nothing before that is "clutch"?

They were still losing Game 1 of the 2015 Finals before Kyrie exited with knee injury.

As poorly as Steph Curry played, he still played better than Draymond Green.

Okay, Kellerman Bayless.

Why did KD's being there make it worse?

You mean when he was blitzed and chased after Klay went down?

it doesn't make Curry's 2016 MVP case any less deserving.

Lakers recruit an injury prone Star, and constructed the oldest team in NBA.

So?

Far from it, and beside "Objectivity" is irrational.

The notion that he isn't is the bad joke.

politics and agendas were behind his snubs.

How is that when YOUR THE ONE that called him overrated? Your a critic too as far as I can tell.

The only reason I made that argument is because you posed the question

Which I thought came somewhat out of left field,

you mention the machine behind him but it shouldn’t affect him anymore then it should affect any other player that’s not in the finals.

There’s other clutch situations like Bron’s block in game 7 of the 2016 finals

I just brought up the shots because that was the only stat I had handy at the time

and he’s the GREATEST SHOOTER EVER

so it seemed more than appropriate to ask for a clutch shot here and there,

and the fact that he’s been in those situations 9 times and failed in each of them can’t be ignored.

That’s one game, do you really believe had Kyrie stayed healthy he and LeBron would allow that to continue throughout the remainder of the series? Hell no, Bron and Love without Kyrie probably would’ve been enough to get the job done.

Your forgetting how great Draymond was in that game 7

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201606190GSW.html

Look closely at Draymond’s numbers then Steph’s. You probably would’ve thought it was the other way around since Dray was never accused of being a scorer and Steph (the 1st unanimous MVP in NBA history) broke the record for most 3’s in a season, won the scoring title, and did all of that by joining the 50 40 90 club.

Feel free to explain that one for me.

Because the finals odds were even more lopsided, the Cavs literally had no shot.

🥱 Excuses, excuses, fact of the matter is we’ve seen countless times Steph take and make shots way tougher than that only difference is he made them when it didn’t really count for much and he never made one in a close out game situation with the game on the line.

That’s because I recognize talent when I see it. I have absolutely no issue with Curry when it comes to the regular season, it’s the postseason where there’s a massive drop off.

My argument is that you can’t accuse the media of having an agenda against Curry when they granted him an honor that nobody in NBA history achieved.

That was this season not last season, they still managed to take a 2-1 lead to the Western Conference Champions with a banged up AD (eventually completely injured).

Why do you rank him ahead of Bron?

Care to explain that one as well?

I hope he enjoys that Magic Johnson award because it very well may be the only postseason individual accolade he’ll achieve, you say

But it seems like they made that award tailor made for him.

What it does it tell you that in light of a series of catastrophic events that occurred with precision that LeBron James and the Cavaliers won that 2016 Finals in Game 7, by only two possessions

I think he has quite a high "basketball I.Q

My main criticism of LeBron James has always been his unwillingness to be deferential in order for his teammates to get into rhythm

He's had clutch shots here and there, in the regular season, the playoffs, and yes, the Finals.

Yes, when one is ridiculously SELECTIVE like the final 24 seconds in regulation, you can make anyone appear to have "failed."

When the Warriors and Cavaliers ran it back the following year, the Warriors had a commanding 3-1 lead against a healthy Cavaliers roster.

You can't have it both ways: either box score over a series matters more, or impact does.

it's a reference to sports personalities Max Kellerman and Skip Bayless.

The Cavs had no shot? Why not? Was it because they had fewer "stars" or because they had an inferior system?

Toronto Raptors Coach Tyronne Lue and Nick Nurse respectively have explicitly stated that their game plan was to blitz Steph Curry

They had no choice but to give it to him; that's how dominant his season was.

Because Shaquille O'Neal was more impactful in his team's championship runs than LeBron is.

Because there's no experience you'll have, or any perspective you maintain, where YOU ARE NOT THE SUBJECT.

Dude really? Those two possessions the Warriors could’ve very well have won by if Steph made some of those threes he bricked.

Yet you critique it by saying he should defer to lesser teammates 🤔.

You mean like he did when he first got to Miami? His passiveness is what cost him that championship (among other things).

You can easily nip this in the bud don’t stop sending me links now, I’ve yet to see it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MvtYUcbenCU

The Warriors were no where near as good the year before.

The two coexist pretty often.

I get the Kellerman reference but Bayless?

He’s an even bigger LeBron hater than you

and he would never accuse him of being the 2nd greatest player of all time.

Doesn’t have to be either or it could be both, but let’s be real anyone with sense knew the Cavs wasn’t going past 5 against the Warriors.

Like I said I’ve seen him make tougher shots

he just folded because the moment was too big for him.

But they had a choice when they denied him in the finals right?

LeBron was the first FMVP to comeback from 3-1 against a 73-9 team (but wait there’s more) and lead all statistical categories. Not to mention his triple double in game 7. What impact did Shaq leave that resembles anything remotely close to that?

So what are you saying facts are an illusion?

So what does it say that it took, again, a series of precisely timed catastrophic events and bricks from the opposing team's leading player to win in a Game 7 by just two possessions? 

And again, I'm critical of his not deferring to them in order to get them in rhythm, not that he doesn't defer to them, "entirely."

I'm talking about 2012-2013 LeBron, when he was not afraid to let his teammates get involved in the offense while also seeking to be dominant--which he was.

Going from 67-15 to 73-9 would suggest that they were "nearly as good" the year before.

So, in your opinion, ONLY the last shot-clock regulation period in a game's entire regulation is "clutch"? Nothing before that is "clutch"?

That apparently was not enough to convince 4 of the 11 voters to cast their votes for LeBron James.

So you did know who I was talking about. I called you Kellerman Bayless to describe your arguments as somewhat of a hodgepodge of both of their typical takes in reference to Steph Curry.

Does it not strike your curiosity just a little how many of those Cavs players went on to do well on other teams, e.g. Jordan Clarkson, Rodney Hood, George Hill, etc?

Shaquille was absolutely dominant in three straight Finals. And the reason they embarrassingly lost the fourth Finals in 2004 was that, and the late Kobe Bryant even admitted this, is that he didn't want to rely on  and pass to Shaquille O'Neal. I don't blame Shaq for the 2004 Finals. Note, there's a reason Kobe Bryant isn't on my top 10 despite his winning five championships.

That Curry choked especially since that Game 7 was in Oracle, if it were the Q it probably would’ve been by more than two possessions.

Honestly, it feels like we’re talking about two different players. LeBron is always looking to pass before scoring (this season being a drastic exception) so much so that he often gets criticized for that. I’ve seen countless times he had an opportunity for an easy bucket and he gives it up. He even said it himself that nothing fills him up more than someone else scoring off his pass.

So I guess he proved you wrong a lot earlier than the 2020-2021 season.

You can’t just look at a teams regular season record (in that case that 73-9 was better than any Warriors team that added Durant) there was a reason Steph got unanimous MVP that year and not the year before because that was the beginning of his peak, also I think that chip he won gave him and his team confidence that probably wouldn’t have happened had a healthy Cavs team rip there hearts out the year prior.

What if I said yes?

Well if we’re ignoring who’s on the winning team would you agree that LeBron deserved FMVP over Curry?

I did but I didn’t understand the correlation between the two and me, I also don’t recall either one of them saying those exact words but whatever you say man.

You and I have very different standards of well, because none of them done well enough to make any all-star teams and none of them are going to the hall of fame.

🤦🏾‍♂️ this Kobe disrespect is getting ridiculous

nonetheless is he at least in your top 15?

Because if he is then I ask if you take other factors into account when you assess dominance and although Shaq dominated (most dominant force since Wilt Chamberlain) he did it with a top 15 player by his side

(which LeBron never had)

and against way inferior competition in the finals (especially Iverson’s 76ers).

Okay, so what does it indicate when a series of precisely timed catastrophic events occur to the opposing team, and simultaneously have their leading scorer "choke" in a Game 7, that it took LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers seven games to win by just two possessions?

No one mentioned his passing ability. Deferring, does not necessarily equate to assists.

And this is an example of the reason your statements aren't "objective." Employing abstracts in your arguments like "confidence," which I'm sure bears value in Sports discussions which I've said don't have to necessarily be quantifiable.

Seem is not an argument;

Don't beat around the bush. Are you saying yes?

Winning cannot be ignored.

And no, while LeBron did have the higher box score, his efficiency was down.

And it defeats the purpose of awarding the player most valuable to their team's success.

Probably not, but LeBron was in fact responsible in large part for the construction of that roster, which was a tactic used to alleviate cap-space for the team he would eventually join.

Nevertheless, they are NBA players and one of those players won 6th man of the year while playing for the Utah Jazz; one of those players played an instrumental part in forcing the Phoenix Suns six games in the 1st Round. One of those role players went to the conference Finals in 2019. If anything, this latest Lakers Season should demonstrate to you that stacking stars =/= success.

Yeah, because the Cavaliers had an inferior system, not because they were short a couple of stars. Does it not strike your curiosity just a little how many of those Cavs players went on to do well on other teams, e.g. Jordan Clarkson, Rodney Hood, George Hill, etc?

How have I disrespected the late Kobe Bryant?

Sorry, I don't indulge LeBron James apologism.

One can only play against those in the Finals who make the Finals. Wilt Chamberlain frequently lost to Bill Russell's all-time great Celtics teams, and Kareem's Bucks Teams. This no more mitigates Wilt's all-time status than it would LeBron's.

Objectivity is irrational because it presumes that one can experience in spite of one's own experience.

Seriously dude quit implementing every answer I give into your next question, if you have something to say then say it.

So help me out here, can you give me an example of him not being deferential and it having a negative impact on teammates?

Because one thing I know is LeBron is more than willing to play off-ball

Remember when you said

Seem is not an argument;

Well neither was that, however what I said prior to what I felt was if you don’t want to argue the abstract fine but the numbers speak for themselves.

Seem is not an argument; but that's okay, this is a Sports discussion after all.

Fine, yes.

Yet YOUR THE ONE that brought up the 4 of the 11 voters to cast their votes for LeBron James.

I think Iggy’s defense had a little something to do with that, especially in game 4.

There’s some success in putting your team in a position where they take a 2-1 lead,

and why can’t it mean awarding the best player on the floor? Is there no value in that?

I’m sorry but are we talking about LeBron the player or GM?

Based off you assessment of them “doing well” I took it to mean you thought they were stars

and just wasn’t utilized properly in the Cavs system

my retort to that was my case as to why that’s far from the case and you seemed to agree with the “Probably not”. 

By emphasizing that he’s not a top 10 player, that was one of the first things I noticed when you gave me your list and I let it go because I had other things I wanted to address but now since you mention it again YES it’s disrespect.

That’s funny since I’ve been called a LeBron hater in regards to the GOAT debate, but in all seriousness if your arguing that LeBron played with a top 15 player then who?

I’m not saying your competition in the Finals mitigates your status, but I think your doing more deserving players a disservice

by only judging Shaq on the championships in which he was dominant, but what about when he wasn’t as dominant?

I mean you said it yourself Hakeem owned Shaq (a guy you have ranked lower than LeBron BTW).

No, it presumes one can be honest

without letting personal biases get in the way

I think the fact that I said I would love to see Steph prove me wrong proves that.

Because Russell was better basketball player despite Chamberlain having more talent and athleticism.

Are you going to attribute this to Russell's having Cousey and Havlicek?

what does it indicate when a series of precisely timed catastrophic events occur to the opposing team, and simultaneously have their leading scorer "choke" in a Game 7, that it took LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers seven games to win by just two possessions?

The latter half of this last regular season when he prioritized the scoring title.

We can argue abstracts. I'm indicating to you that I can reciprocate with abstracts because I'm not indulging the pretense of being "objective."

Then by that measure, LeBron is more "clutch" than Kobe Bryant despite the narratives. And I've presented you with at least three occasions where Steph Curry's performance meets your criterion.

Even Andre Iguodala concedes to that point.

You can't have it both ways: you can't reward the one who shuts down, while simultaneously attempting to reward the one who was shut down. That's what made the 2015 FMVP vote ridiculous.

Maintain that argument with Steph Curry's 2016 Finals performance. As I recall, he didn't receive any Finals MVP votes then either. (And he shouldn't have.)

Only if one is trying to circumvent that process of actually winning in an attempt to gerrymander in success.

Doesn't matter. If he has a role in selecting his teammates--and he has--then don't seek to mitigate his playoff failures by attempting to diminish his teammates.

I never stated that.

LeBron would have staggered Finals Appearances after Cleveland, playing poorly in 2011, playing great in 2012-2013, and playing sub-par in 2014. He wouldn't play great again until 2016, and played well in 2017, and flamed out (not in terms of box score) after game 1 of the 2018 Finals.

While true that Shaq has been part of playoff embarrassments, so has LeBron; so has many great players and teams--e.g. '91 Lakers, '95 Bulls, etc.

I don’t give a damn about narratives, LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. I presented you with 9 occasions where Steph folded in the clutch (without mentioning the OT shot he missed against houston in game 4 of 2018 and his disappearance against Memphis in OT of the play-in game) and layups don’t compare to threes especially for the greatest shooter of all time.

In other news, the Boston Celtics win Game 1 of the 2022 NBA Finals. 

Yes I know I’ve watched the game.

On a different note

That wasn’t meant just for you

No different notes shall be indulged.

we’ll just agree to disagree

I'm just not going to push a discussion any further on measures with which we obviously disagree.

If disagreement turns you off so much maybe you shouldn’t engage in a DEBATE site, just saying.

Nah, I'm good